Strahan an easy choice for BBV All-Time Giants' Team

by ETVal on Apr 10, 2008 6:35 PM EDT in News

It is time to turn our attention to the defensive tackles on our Big Blue View All-Time Giants Team. Before I do that, though, we have to clarify the defensive end position.

Due to an error on my part, I believe our voting results on the defensive end position are inconclusive. Michael Strahan obviously belongs on the all-time team, and gets one defensive end slot.

The other position, I believe, has yet to be decided. Andy Robustelli has a slight edge over Leonard Marshall right now. However, I want to re-vote the second defensive end using just those two candidates.

That is because I told many of you last week that you could vote for multiple players. Unfortunately, that turned out to be incorrect. So, I believe many of your votes for Robustelli or Marshall were not tallied.

So, to rectify that you will find a poll in the right column asking you to choose between Robustelli, Marshall and Jim Katcavage for the second defensive end slot. I'm adding Katcavage, who had 96.5 'unofficial' sacks, third in Giants' history, because Giants.com lists Katcavage as an end, not tackle where I thought he had played. He needs to be considered. The result of that vote will be added to our team next Friday.

Now, on to the vote for defensive tackle. I expect the voting for these two slots to be interesting, since I'm not sure the choices are clear-cut.

• Jim Burt -- Burt was the popular nose tackle on some of the Giants' outstanding teams in the 1980s. Played for the Giants from 1981-88, and was All-Pro in 1986. Had a famous hit on San Francisco's Joe Montana that KO'd the QB in a 1986 playoff game. Finished his career with 20 sacks.

• Roosevelt Grier -- Grier might be known for a lot of non-football related things, such as needlepoint, television work and being Robert F. Kennedy's bodyguard. He was also a tremendous player, though. He spent the first seven years of his 11-year career with the Giants, as was All-Pro six times in those seven seasons. Sacks were not an official stat in those days, but 'unofficially' he record 44.5 in his career.

• Keith Hamilton -- Hamilton spent 12 years with the Giants, recording 63 career sacks and anchoring the middle of the defensive line throughout the 1990s and the first part of this decade.

• Arnold Weinmeister -- From Giants.com: Weinmeister played for the Giants from 1950 through the 1953 season. He was one of the first defensive players to captivate the masses in the same manner a star running back or quarterback could. A big, extremely fast player with great ability to diagnose plays. Weinmeister began his pro career in the All-American Football Conference with the New York Yankees in 1950, and moved to the NFL during the 1950 merger. Enshrined in the Hall of Fame in 1984.

• John Mendenhall -- Played eight seasons for the Giants during the dark years of 1972-1980, and was always one of the better players. Named All-Pro in 1974.

• Cal Hubbard -- From Giants.com: Hubbard played for the Giants from 1927-29, and then again in 1936. He was one of 17 charter enshrinees into the Pro Football Hall of Fame in 1963. Hubbard was named All-NFL six years from 1928-33. He played for the Green Bay Packers from 1929-35 and the Pittsburgh Pirates in 1936. He was acquired before the start of the 1927 season in order to help beef up the Giants defense. That season the Giants defense surrendered only 20 points as the Giants captured their first NFL championship. He was acquired by the Green Bay Packers in 1929 in a move that would haunt the Giants, as Hubbard led the Packers to a 12-0-1 record in 1929, edging out the 13-1-1 Giants for the league title. The Packers handed the Giants a 20-6 loss, the Giants only loss of the season.

[NOTE: Unfortunately, we found out the 'multiple' vote option does not work with our polls. So, you can only vote for one guy. The top two vote-getters will be our all-time defensive tackles. If you feel the need to vote for two players, go ahead and vote twice. If you need help voting the second time send me an e-mail and I should be able to help you with that.

There are some extra choices this week, largely because of the number of exception 'old-time' players worthy of being on the ballot.]

Also, as usual if you don't see the poll, click 'Entry Link' and you will be taken to a page that includes the poll.

[NOTE: I posted this early for a couple of reasons. I did want to clarify the defensive end balloting. Also, however, I am hitting the road for vacation tomorrow. I will still be posting a little bit when the mood strikes, but for the next week or so you may not see many new posts. I will be sure to post my selection in the SBN Mock Draft before leaving.]

Big Blue View All-Time Giants Team

Punter -- Sean Landeta
Placekicker -- Matt Bahr
Defensive End -- Michael Strahan

Poll

Who is the best defensive tackle in Giants' history?

Cal Hubbard

1 votes

Keith Hamilton

9 votes

John Mendenhall

3 votes

Arnold Weinmeister

3 votes

Roosevelt Grier

11 votes

Jim Burt

2 votes

29 votes | Poll has closed

0 recs | Comment 22 comments

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Comments

Voting

I'll make one vote for DT now, Arnie Weinmeister of course, who was All-Pro every year he played(6, 2 in the AAFK, 4 with the Giants.) and is in the HOF. He was the most acclaimed DT of his day, the equivalent of Bob Lilly or Reggie White. He and Hubbard are the only Giants DTs in the Hall of Fame.

I'll make my next choice after this round is over.

Ed:

Is the above procedurally correct?
How do I vote for the next DE round?

by george cronin on Apr 10, 2008 8:23 PM EDT 0 recs

George

Look in the right column of the main page. There is a defensive end poll there. You can vote for your 'non-Strahan' choice there. As for DT, I'll only use a second round if I have to. I really wish the 'multiple vote' option had worked.

by ETVal on Apr 10, 2008 9:44 PM EDT up 0 recs

Ok, I'll make my second choice

by george cronin on Apr 10, 2008 9:47 PM EDT up 0 recs

Ed, tried what you said, but on the

right hand side of the main page there is only a listing of the DE results.

by george cronin on Apr 10, 2008 9:55 PM EDT 0 recs

Whoops!

Found it

by george cronin on Apr 10, 2008 9:57 PM EDT 0 recs

Vacation??????????

I feel like all those runners when Forrest Gump tells them he is tired and going home....

"Now what the hell are we gonna do?"

Jesus, open us up a chat room so we can console each other next week, something.

LOL, have a good vacay, we'll all be waiting for you when you get back......starving, unshaven, unshowered, constipated, and completely unaware of whats going on in the Giants World

by jrs1940 on Apr 11, 2008 8:09 AM EDT 0 recs

LOL

Being unaware of Giants news definitely leads to those things!

by potroast on Apr 11, 2008 8:55 AM EDT up 0 recs

Haha

JRS, you are the last man on earth -- other than Mike Garafolo -- I would ever expect to be unaware of Giants news.

by ETVal on Apr 11, 2008 10:13 AM EDT up 0 recs

PS.....

I voted Grier.

How could I not? The man was in "The Thing With Two Heads"!!!!!!

by jrs1940 on Apr 11, 2008 8:12 AM EDT 0 recs

"old time players"

This is really aimed for George and 57 ... from the descriptions of the players I was also going to vote for Weinmeister, but he only played for the Giants for 4 years? The same with Hubbard? I need a good reason to not see that as a knock on these guys. I mean the Hammer played for the Giants for 12 years and was a very good DT. Why was Weinmeister's career so short and does it matter?

by potroast on Apr 11, 2008 8:54 AM EDT 0 recs

It could matter,

But Bahr only had three years with the Giants, so...Not that I voted for him. I felt Gogo deserved it because he has a bigger impact on the game than any kicker who ever played.
Weinmeister he was by far the best defensive lineman of his time and best to play for the Giants. His career was short because he'd acquired super star status and wanted the big(ger) bucks. He was one of the highest paid players in the game (if not the highest, certainly by far the the highest for a guy in the trenches.) When the Giants wouldn't pay him what he wanted, he went on to whatever bigger and better things he had in mind.
I'm such a big fan of his because he played in NY (for the Yanks and the Giants) for the six years when I was between 15-21. You know how young men revere the sports titans of their tender years. Ther's no doubt in my mind he could play today and be All-Pro without changing any of his training practices, whereas other guys from his and earlier eras (before the days of weight rooms for football teams) would have to bulk up (eg.,Cal Hubbard, and even Mel Hein.) He was a great athlete with tremendous strength, quickness and speed.
In terms of time with the team, if I were making rules for selections, I'd rule out anyone with less than five years and I'd rule out active players (yes, even Stray.) That seems to be the traditional way to go. I think that Arnie's abbreviated length of service explains why it took him so long to get into the HOF, particularly since all records of the AAFL were destroyed when the leagues merged.

As far as whether Arnie deserves consideration for the BBV poll, given the absence of guidelines to the contrary and the precedent set with Bahr, I have no problem casting my vote for him (I'm a big fan of Rosie Grier, but he was never the force Arnie was (eg, though they played in the same era, he's not in the HOF and Arnie is.)

So, let your conscience be your guide. We can always send out a search party.

by george cronin on Apr 11, 2008 2:43 PM EDT up 0 recs

Weinmeister

I was only six years old when he left the Giants. But George, if you are that adamant about his skills that's good enough for me.

I usually agree with your player evaluations, with the possible exception of Sam Huff, whom I think got famous from his famous "Violent World of Sam Huff" fame and was effective in great part because of the great defensive line in front of him.

If I know you George, you will remind me that he stuffed the great Jim Brown, which he did, but I can never forgive him for allowing Jim Taylor of the Packers to run all over him in the title game.

by giant fan since 57 on Apr 12, 2008 5:29 AM EDT 0 recs

Whoa,I know there are good arguments for saying

guys like Bill George and Mike Schmidt might have been better than Huff, but Huff didn't make the Hundred Best List for nothing. My report of the title game you cite should be on BBV today. Taylor carried the load and was the key factor to GB's ball control on the sweep (student body right.) But his yards per carry can scarcely be described as "running over." Grinding or pounding would be more apt. The key to that loss was that the Giants were a passing team and that they couldn't pass in gale force winds.
Landry built his 4-3 around Huff for a reason and Lombardi loved him. He was the first pure MLB and defined the position. I think, outside of LT , he was the best LB the Giants ever had, although Carson comes close. Some days I think Carson was better. If all three played at the same time, I'd use Carson in the middle and put Huff on the outside to take advantage of his speed. In a 3-4, I'd use Huff and Carson as the ILBs; Banks and Taylor as OLBs.
I do think an urban myth grew up around Huff that he was overrated because of all the ink and because of a teasing remark from one of his teammates: "Is it true, Sam, that we can't get off of the pile until you jump on?" On the other hand, all of his teamates, coaches and opponents vouch for his greatness.

by george cronin on Apr 12, 2008 6:15 AM EDT 0 recs

Huff

I was only in high school when I watched that game and I guess I forgot about how windy it was. The Giants were definitely a passing team at that time. Hey, wasn't Bob Schnelker the tight end?

Sam did manage to get in on a lot of tackles after they were made, hence the comment you cited.

But he was fast for a linebacker and did have a very good nose for the ball.

by giant fan since 57 on Apr 12, 2008 5:33 PM EDT 0 recs

The Giants were snakebit in some of those

championship games. Playing at home, they would have taken the Pack that day if not for the miserable conditons (or if it had been played at a warm weather field as the SB is today.) The wind blew over sideline benches and Pack players claimed it was colder than the Ice Bowl game.

A couple of years, later the Jints played the Bears for the championship. Tittle guided them for an 85 yard TD on the opening drive. Allen told the Bears to "get" him and they blitzed like crazy. Title's knee ligaments were torn on a play that would be a double foul today: 1. a late hit, 2 with a helmet driven into the knee. Shaw could do nothing for two series and Tittle came back in the second half, his leg shot up with drugs and wrapped from thigh to ankle. Huff screamed at Sherman to keep him off the field, confident the defense could hold the Bears out of the end zone. Tittle couldn't throw properly (the Bears had five interceptions.) The Bears ran two back deep into Giants territory and Bill Wade scored on QB sneaks. The Bears won 14-10, despite never getting into Giants territory while they had the ball. In retrospect it looks like Huff made the right call.

I think of Huff as being in on a lot more tackles in a swarming defense rather than piling on after tackles had been made. The comment was kidding by one team mate to another, but it was taken seriously by some media and fans. Which is not to say he never piled on. Everybody did in those days, when the rules allowed a lot more mayhem, but I don't think he did it any more than the average defender.
BTW, in the title game you cited (where Taylor was the key to the win) he carried more than thirty times and gained a little over eighty yards. It's more accurate to say he was involved in mulitiple collisions than to claim he ran over people. He played a hell of a game, though, dished out a lot of punishment (he had one of the greatest forearm smashes in football, right up there with John Henry Johnson and Larry Csonka) and took an awful pounding. After the game, he was totally drained and sat huddled in blankets, shivering, on the plane ride home.
There'll be fuller reports on both games coming up. (Or maybe Ed won't run them now that I've droned on about them at such great length.)

by george cronin on Apr 12, 2008 7:28 PM EDT 0 recs

57, I think Joe Walton was the TE

by george cronin on Apr 12, 2008 7:31 PM EDT 0 recs

You're right

Joe Walton was the tight end.

Around this time we lived in New Britain Connecticut. One of the oil companies gave away great pencil drawn renditions of Giant players. I collected them all (long gone now, sad to say) but the one I liked best was the one of Bob Schnelker catching one over his shoulder. They also had a good one of Kyle Rote.

I Think it was Kelso that gave away the prints. I loved their TV commercials, especially when they got bought out by Chevron. At the end of the commercial some guy would ask, "I wonder what they did with all those old Kelso signs?

Fans today don't appreciate the magnitude of the the poundings guys took in that era. There was no such thing as a late hit. It wasn't uncommon for a quarterback to get rolled on by two or three defensive linemen as he lay on the ground or get blindsided four or five seconds after throwing the ball.

NFL films ought to put together a show about the ruthless way quarterbacks were treated back then. It's a wonder more of them weren't seriously injured.

George, have you ever read "Fatso" Art Donovans hillarious book about the characters he played with? It is one of the funniest things I ever read. Just the stuff about Bobby Lane is enough to justify the read.

by giant fan since 57 on Apr 13, 2008 7:27 AM EDT 0 recs

I saw an NFL Films

documentary about the history of the AFL, and they had a whole segment about how much rougher the game was back then (mostly focusing on the Raiders, but showing other teams too), and how the defensive players used to crush the QBs during and after the play. Then Joe Namath came into the league, and when he got injured on a late hit one year, the AFL leaders realized they needed to protect their prize asset so they invented the roughing the passer rule. It was pretty interesting. And that was even a few years after the period we're talking about here...I can only imagine what it must have been like in the NFL in the earlier days.

by cjmulrain on Apr 13, 2008 9:41 AM EDT up 0 recs

57, I have Fatso based on your previous

recommendation. Haven't read it yet.
CJ, these days people downplay how could a QB Namath was and how much better he might have been with good knees. At Alabama, he could run like a deer until he suffered his first knee injury. The Raiders used to brutalize him. They had a Huge DE (whose name I can't recall--he look like a crazed Viking) who loved nothing better than spearing Namath with the helmet. Joe has two artificial knees now. He took horrible beatings during his career and never complained, then or now.

I have no idea how some of those old timers like YA were able to play so many years.

by george cronin on Apr 13, 2008 10:03 AM EDT 0 recs

YA

The old "bald eagle" really was a warrior. That picture of him with his helmet off, head bleeding is one of the best sports photos I've ever seen.

I notice that I am unable to comment on your new post in which you describe the 61 title game.

I can't remember who used to call the Giants games on tv back then. Do you remember?

As for Gifford's hit, he was never the same when he came back but who could blame him.

by giant fan since 57 on Apr 14, 2008 5:39 AM EDT 0 recs

It might have been Summerall, but

I won't swear to it. He was the color guy? The play-by-play guy was a track star from the Berlin Olympics, Marty someone? DeRo (Al DeRogatis, an ex Giant) did radio.
Actually, Giff came back as a WR and made All-Pro twice at that position. (of course, he was more valuable as an RB what with the option pass, etc.) As far as I know, he's the only guy who made All-Pro at three different positions: DB, RB, WR. For a While the Giants were toying with the idea of converting him to QB (until they got Tittle.)
I don't know what the problem with the new post is.
BTW, Huff, in additition to screaming at Sherman to keep him out, begged Tittle not to go back in vs the Bears. Tittle said he had to. It was for the championship.

by george cronin on Apr 14, 2008 7:21 AM EDT 0 recs