Middle linebacker -- Huff or Carson?

by ETVal on Apr 17, 2008 11:14 PM EDT in All-Time Team

The voting results for defensive end and tackle are in, showing a clear preference for Giants of more recent vintage.

At end, Leonard Marshall will join Michael Strahan on our Big Blue View All-Time Giants' Team. He defeated Andy Robustelli, 30-25, in balloting.

At tackle, Roosevelt Grier was the top vote-getter.

In what I see as a clear indication that our voters are younger, and seemingly not that interested in honoring the old-time Giants, Keith Hamilton easily outdistanced Hall of Famer Arnold Weinmeister for the second slot.

Now we move on to what I think will be a very interesting decision -- middle linebacker. This is an obvious two-horse race. So, I won't mess around.

You get to choose between two Hall of Famers, Sam Huff and Harry Carson. No one else belongs in the conversation.

I am incredibly curious to see how this one turns out.

The Case for Huff

A five-time Pro Bowler and two-time All Pro, Huff was a Giant from 1956 thru 1963 before spending the last five years of his career in Washington. He was named to the 1950s All-Decade Team. Huff was named the top linebacker in the NFL in 1959. He had 30 career interceptions.

The Case for Carson

Carson was named to nine Pro Bowls in his 13-year Giants' career. He anchored the dominant Giants' defense of the last '80s.

So, which is it going to be gang? Huff, the old-time great? Or Carson, the more recent immovable force in the middle of a dominant Giants' defense?

Considering the results on the defensive line, my money is on Carson.

Big Blue View All-Time Giants Team

Punter -- Sean Landeta
Placekicker -- Matt Bahr
Defensive End -- Michael Strahan
Defensive End -- Leonard Marshall
Defensive Tackle -- Roosevelt Grier
Defensive Tackle -- Keith Hamilton

Poll

Who is the best middle linebacker in Giants' history?

Sam Huff

6 votes

Harry Carson

20 votes

26 votes | Poll has closed

0 recs | Comment 26 comments

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Comments

My vote is for Carson

I watched them both play. Both Harry and Sam played on great defenses. Both were gritty. But in the end I think Carson was more of a team leader.

Think about his leadership for a minute. He might actually have been the third best linebacker on the team but it was still "his defense."

by giant fan since 57 on Apr 18, 2008 6:40 AM EDT 0 recs

Young vs old

This one is truly a great debate. As 57 indicates, they were very similar players. Carson might have been more of a team leader, but Huff was a superstar. He was on the cover of Time for crying out loud. He was arguably the best defensive player in the NFL at the time and is on the list of the all-time 100, while Carson wasn't even the best LB on his own team. My vote is for Huff.

by potroast on Apr 18, 2008 8:35 AM EDT 0 recs

57. Tom Landry said

he built the 4-2 around Huff. Wouldn't that make him the team leader? He was also the guy who spoke for the defense(which is probably why Sherman dumped him), something Carson never did.

I haven't made up my mind about who to vote for yet.

by george cronin on Apr 18, 2008 9:16 AM EDT 0 recs

True enough....

I think the point I was trying to make is that Carson was respected not just as a player but as a man. I think that's where Harry excelled.

Not taking anything away from Huff's play...he certainly proved himself.

by giant fan since 57 on Apr 18, 2008 7:18 PM EDT up 0 recs

4-3

by george cronin on Apr 18, 2008 9:16 AM EDT 0 recs

George

I think, and I suspect others here agree, that your vote will be the most interesting of all in this debate. Personally, I have to go with Carson, if only because his entire career was in New York.

by ETVal on Apr 18, 2008 9:19 AM EDT up 0 recs

That's a good reason, but it didn't help Gogo,

and Harry didn't spend his entire career at MLB.

Since you express such interest, I'll reveal who I vote for. Wait. I've already been doing that, haven't I? I'm still shellshocked by the Hamilton choice. I've got to get my head together. I may be suffering from PTSD. These corkscrew landings under sniper fire to land in my workstation chair are taking their toll.

Also, here's the time of year I'm supposed to be fishing, sailing, hiking and swimming (later), but I'm stuck in my study because I live on the shale cliffs and it's 121 steps down to my dock. (I'm due for more knee surgery on 4/28.) BBVers won't have to put up with as many of my screeds once I recuperate.
In the meantime, maybe I'll finish the Great American Novel. I take my breaks by pulling up BBV.
BTW, 57, whoever said it was Carson's defense? Wasn't it Parcells's, just as the other great one was Landry's? According to Huff, it was Allie's jealousy of Landry that led to Sherman's breaking up the Giants defense. First he traded Grier. Then Robustelli retired, and Sherman traded Modzelewski (leaving only Kat on the DL), Erich Barnes and Huff. Hey, come to think of it, I think I might pick Modzelewski before Hamilton.

by george cronin on Apr 18, 2008 9:52 AM EDT 0 recs

The whole Sherman thing

reminds me of when all the late 80's Mets with any heart or emotion(ie:Dykstra et al) were removed from the team for guys like Juan Samuel. This middle linebacker thing is too tough to pick now but I'm leaning towards Carson. Huff made a name for himself by gluing himself to Jim Brown every chance he got didn't he? Carson not only kept the locker room guys like LT in line but if you remember the mid 80's,the instant you knew the opponent was running up the middle it was satisfying to know that the play would go for A)no gain B)stuffed in the backfield or minimal gain. This was mostly due to Harry, although we usually had four great ones with a guy(Andy Headen) in reserve who was probably better than anyone we have starting today. Was Huff THAT good?

by big blue wrecking crew on Apr 18, 2008 10:59 AM EDT up 0 recs

Two Middle Linebackers

Given how many great Giant teams played a 3-4 and how many great linebackers have played for the Giants, shouldn't we have two middle linebackers on the all time Giant team? I think Caron & Huff both belong, however, Pepper Johnson and others should be at least discussed.

by CNJGiants on Apr 18, 2008 11:35 AM EDT up 0 recs

I kinda like this idea

Plus, it would get rid of the unworthy Keith Hamilton and allow us to play both Huff AND Carson. Who wouldn't make that trade?

by cjmulrain on Apr 18, 2008 12:12 PM EDT up 0 recs

Middle linebacker

Let's see how this plays out. One thing I disagree with is putting Pepper Johnson or Brian Kelley into this conversation. Good players, but not nearly on the same level as these two.

by ETVal on Apr 18, 2008 2:07 PM EDT up 0 recs

3-4

George can correct me if I'm wrong, but the only notable Giants teams that really played a 3-4 were the Parcells teams. I don't think that's enough reason to change the All-Time team.

by ETVal on Apr 18, 2008 2:11 PM EDT up 0 recs

Except for Spags now,

you're right, but then again that's Harry played most of his career in a 3-4. Having four LBs solves the LB problem and I think Grier would work as a nose tackle. I wonder how the BBV team will look when compared to other All-Time Giants teams? There's got to be some more out there.

by george cronin on Apr 18, 2008 2:47 PM EDT up 0 recs

Two Super Bowl Winners Played 3-4

You neeed to pick a team to fit your personel. Is the team better with Huff on the bench or Hamilton on the bench?

by CNJGiants on Apr 18, 2008 3:37 PM EDT up 0 recs

It's a thought

Maybe I will ask the masses.

by ETVal on Apr 18, 2008 4:08 PM EDT up 0 recs

They're very close

Sam was on the All-50s team.
Did Harry make an All-decade team?
Sam made All-Pro 8 times.
Harry went to the Pro Bowl 9 times
Did he ever make All-Pro?
Harry had 11 career interceptions.
Sam had 30
Harry had 19 sacks.
Sacks weren't recorded when Sam played
Harry complained for years that the HOF voters were sportwrtiers.
Sam got in easily on the first try.
Sam made the list of 100 greatest. Former players voted for those to be included.
Harry didn't make it.
Harry played most of his career at ILB
Sam played his whole career at MLB
Harry played with the best LB of all time and at least three other at least very good LBs (Kelly, Van Pelt, Banks)
Sam played alongside good LBs who weren't up to the level of those Harry played with.
Sam played with one of the best defensive lines in the league
So did Harry. (Well, according BBVer voting, better.
Sam played with a good secondary that included one All-Time great (Emlen Tunnell.)
Harry played with a better secondary.

See what I mean? It's tough.

by george cronin on Apr 18, 2008 11:58 AM EDT up 0 recs

Running up the middle

The same applied when Huff was MLB

by george cronin on Apr 18, 2008 12:02 PM EDT up 0 recs

Sure, it was Tuna's defense....

But Parcells was able to have the kind of relationship with Carson that Sherman apparently couldn't with Huff. Maybe it's because Harry never coveted the spotlight like Sam did.

I don't know....I was very young when The Giant's defense was broken up. There wasn't as much in depth media coverage as there is now. I only remember that they started sucking badly and it took a hell of a long time to right the ship.

by giant fan since 57 on Apr 18, 2008 7:31 PM EDT up 0 recs

I'm for that 100%

by george cronin on Apr 18, 2008 11:41 AM EDT 0 recs

I went for Huff

looks like I'm in the minority. The MLB position was invented for Huff, you gotta respect that. I sorta feel like voting for Carson over Huff would be like voting for Robert Parish over George Mikan in an NBA context. Sure, Robert Parish was arguably the glue to those mid-80's Celtics, and was one of the best big men ever, and physically was way more imposing than Mikan, but Mikan really redefined the game of basketball and paved the way for all the dominant big men that came later. Plus, he was pretty awesome in his own right. And as good as Parish was, he was surrounded by Bird and McHale, which made his life a little easier. Anyway, just my 2 cents, I'm certainly not gonna complain about having Harry Carson on the all-time team, I'm just worried that we're trending a little too much toward the modern players.

by cjmulrain on Apr 18, 2008 12:19 PM EDT 0 recs

cj, I never responded to you previous comments

re old vs new in terms of basketball. You mnetioned that guys like Mikan and Petit, superstrs in their day, wouldn't be able to hack it today. I disagree. If Russel was the best defensive center of all time, as conventional wisdom dictates, then Petit would certainly be damn good today. Russ always played him and Petit gave him all he could handle. Russ could contain him but not stop him. As for Mikan, at the very least he'd be the equal to such wide bodies and Wayne Embry and Wes Unseld.
More of those oldtimers could play today than most people realize. First, as in football and hockey, the talent pools on the teams were much deeper beacuse there were so fewer teams. Second, in basketball all the players were well grounded in the fundamentals. Today few are. The game was different, played on the floor not in the air. (Earl Monroe always went to the basket, faking and dribbling among the big men, scoring like crazy bur never leaving his feet.) No one tried to dunk. To do so was to take your life in your hands. Other players would not allow it and would mug you for trying.
I'm not saying the majority of the old timers could make it today, just that a lot more than is genrally thought. (Guys whose names might now be forgotten like Heinsohn, Braun, Gallatin, Zawolek.)

Anyway, your contention that voting for Parish over Mikan would be like voting fot Carson over Huff is right on target. Like you, I won't complain if Carson wins (it looks like a landslide so far) but the Keith Hamilton choice does raise concerns about extending proper homage to old timers. I put a lot of faith in the 100 Best List because of its recent vintage and the fact that former players voted. They didn't give short shrift to guys from the eighties (LT is the first defensive player and in the top four.) Sam made the list. That carries a lot of weight with me. (Six Giants made the list. Based on what's written in this site, I think most BBVers would recognize only three of the names--LT, Tark and Huff.)

by george cronin on Apr 18, 2008 1:48 PM EDT 0 recs