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Should We Change Our Draft Philosophy?

The Giants every year say they take the BPA. They don't look at their roster in their draft decisions. The best player will be a Giant or as they say. Yes, BPA means best player available but their BPA draft board is actually positional adjusted. What that means is that teams view some positions more valuable to others. Teams will go for the chance for a solid, franchise like say Sam Bradford rather than a polished, talented, once in a generation player like Suh. QB is much more important as your QB dictates the game in a way a DT can't. Now the Giants don’t have to worry about a QB but this positional adjustment still applies. The Giants do this all the time. They go BPA, yes but they trend towards one position that they think is most valuable and therefore better. A player has to be the clear cut BPA if they are outside of their preferred positions. But which are important in their philosophy?


Important Positions


Defensive Line: The Giants belief is that the defensive trench is backbone of your defense. They consistently scout and draft defensive lineman early. It’s the position the Giants always look for. If there’s a talented defensive lineman they’ll be there. They are a fan of athletic freaks and if they have the strong frame you’ll see a puddle of drool by Jerry Reese.


For this particular draft we shouldn’t pick any defensive lineman unless he’s the clear cut best player available without factoring for position. Linval is still growing and we have Austin. Or vets still have gas in the tank so we are set at DT. DE is a tough one. We have JPP and Tuck but Tuck has had nagging injuries and is getting older. Osi will be gone which will free JPP from DT though. I advocate a development type DE in the mid to late rounds though. But we have too many needs or too many positions that need the depth. If there's one thing that they can change in April is this. The defensive line prospects seem really weak and there's not a good chance one of them ends up being near the BPA.


Wide Receiver: Reese always drafts a WR whether it is a high or low pick. We got Nicks, Ham, Ramses, JJ12 all since 2009. There isn’t a type of receiver the Giants look for. Nicks is a possession, physical receiver with good height and huge, huge hands. He’s not a workout warrior either and isn’t particularly fast. His excellent build is the reason why the Giants took him. Great pick. Barden too is similar with his huge body. But they also aren’t shy of getting a small, slot guy like Jernigan. He’s a speedy guy running 4.30s on his pro days. Completely different from Barden but they were had in the same round. It shows that the Giants look for any type of receiver and I love this. If JJ12 plays to his potential he could be our dangerous playmaker like DeSean, but then we have a deep threat in Cruz and Nicks will be lurking with his aggressive skillset.


We should keep our strategy. Wide Receiver is a position of depth yet every year that depth fades. Nicks gets hurt frequently due to his style. It’s unfortunate but going forward it’s tough to project Nicks as a full season guy. He can play 12-13 games but I don’t see how, especially with scumbag DB’s that Nicks can survive a full season. The only other reliable receiver assuming Ham is gone is Victor Cruz. I love Salsa Cruz but if Nicks is down he’s our primary WR. Barden is still proving himself, and JJ12 is rarely playing. If they draft another high receiver we may seem loaded but look at today. We’re down to Nicks who’s getting killed, Cruz and an injured Ham. The Giants never have depth.


Secondary: They draft similarly with CB’s and safeties. They like drafting them early, seen in Ross, Prince Phillips and Chad Jones. Defensive backs get the most money so it comes to no surprise we draft a lot of them. They like their DB’s at 6 feet and all run in the low 4.40s. They also look for instincts in their secondary to go along with their talent. They can draft them their DB’s and they should keep doing whatever they’re doing in regards to the secondary.


Not So Important


LB- The Giants always draft linebackers, but they never do it above the 4th round. They don’t value the position at all. Coughlin, who loves veteran leadership more than anything has no problem starting a couple of rookies at the position. They can’t cover anyone and are rarely used in blitz packages. Our LB’s are young and inexperienced but they just weren’t all that great to begin with. Jacquian is decent but that’s it. Missing Goff and Boley hurts but there’s no guarantee we have both of them100 percent for next year. LB once again will be a need and in this year full of stacked prospects the Giants should dump their strategy if the right player like Zack Brown is available.


TE- The Giants use their TE’s to block. Anything you do with your hands is a bonus. So they won’t go after the top TE’s in the draft. Unless Gilbride wants to pull a Bellichick and gets creative (like that’ll ever happen) with 2 TE sets then they can keep TE’s late.


RB- Now they obviously see RB as an important position but they rarely see players fit to be a worth a first, second or even third round pick. With backs like Jacobs and Bradshaw no wonder why they prefer to wait. However to find a back that can stay on the team for years to come they should go in the early rounds. Jacobs had a decent run but he’s going to be gone soon. Bradshaw clearly can’t handle an entire season to himself. The Giants don’t over prioritize for speed and rightfully so, but it’s still an important skill we can use. Yeah we have Scott but he seems to be a project by our coaches. Since Gilbride needs to be nearly 50/50 with his game plan, drafting a RB early will help greatly.


OL- Again clearly the Giants see this as important. However they don’t think drafting an OL high is wise. OL is one of the safest picks to draft in so the Giants will take on talented but flawed prospects in the mid rounds. Hell our invincible line in 2007 and 2008’s highest player in the draft was McKenzie in the 3rd. They look for versatility in their lineman which is great but I think they have to do it earlier. Even if they don’t start, quality depth is still needed.


Okay Great…Now What?


Well after missing the playoffs for two straight years and staring right into another late collapse perhaps we should mix up our overall draft strategy. We can start by ignoring the positional adjustments if the right player comes along. Like say if Vontaze Burifict is in the second round we should gobble him up. They don’t have to reach but only drafting a couple of positions early ain’t gonna help either. I mean how many more times do we want to see inexperienced LBs or old OL kill us?

Star-divide

TL;DR Giants like some positions better and will go BPA from only them. Maybe we should include positions like TE or LB which aren't as valued. It's extending BPA to everyone,not just the 'epic' positions.

FanPosts are written by community members. This is simply a way for community members to express opinions too long to be contained in a comment.

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Look at the top teams in the league and look at their drafting philosophy.

That should be all we really need to see. I enjoyed the write up, but I respecfully disagree with any notion that suggests going away from BPA.

That’s what we did in last year’s draft, though we had TT, Ross, Cweb, Bruce Johnson, Brian Witherspoon. Look at how that turned out.

That’s what we did in the year before that with JPP. He’s become invaluable, and hey look! Tuck sucks right now, and Osi has been injured consistently.

Also, this:

Hell our invincible line in 2007 and 2008’s highest player in the draft was McKenzie in the 3rd.

lends more credence to the fact that we should not have to draft for need anyway. And that statement is wrong, Chris Snee was a 2nd rounder.

We’ve spent a 2nd on Will Beatty. A 4th on James Brewer. A 5th on Petrus. We re-signed Kevin Boothe, who has shown versatility and has held up quite well. We signed David Baas, who despite struggling in runblocking, is probably our best pass blocker this season.

As far as LBs go, its one of the hardest positions to learn. I’d for someone to point out more than one or two 4-3 rookie linebackers in the past decade (I really can’t think of any right now) that have produced well enough to have made a difference if they were on this team. We have seen talent in Jacquain, Herzlich, Jones, and Paysinger, and we will continue to foster it.

I support the Giants like bras support Kim Kardashian's boobs. It can be a struggle, we've had some jiggles, but we're still firm.

by BigBlueIntervention on Nov 29, 2011 4:40 PM EST reply actions  

and by the way, I do agree with your assessment that they pick BPA while maintaining a positional value

but alot of that is because they are anticipating losses in FA or recoveries from injury. See: Jernigan and Steve Smith. Most of where we’ve filled our needs has been through established vets in FA.

I support the Giants like bras support Kim Kardashian's boobs. It can be a struggle, we've had some jiggles, but we're still firm.

by BigBlueIntervention on Nov 29, 2011 4:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Lol I worded my premise poorly

I’m a fan of BPA but is it truly BPA when we’re drafting the same positions in the first few rounds? Their first rounds are basically perfect but I’m not a huge fan of their seconds and thirds. Take away how you value a position (except for QB and something stupid like a punter) and go BPA from there.

The offensive line I think is partly in due to luck and great coaching. Our recent offensive line picks haven’t been going so well. Yeah our line is living proof that great olineman can be found late but can we keep it up?

And while you have a great point of how LBs have to learn a lot, thing is we keep getting random LBs that are from 3-4s (Sintim), scrubs (Dillard) and decent prospects (Jones, Jacquain). Never had we had someone but then again we weren’t in a position to get someone like that. But based on how little they cared about the LB class last year, I want them to scrap that a scout guys like Burifict, or Brown. Stop thinking that something is insignificant because there’s not really a position that’s like that.

by The Cole Train on Nov 29, 2011 4:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Last line

was directed at the GMen, not you btw.

by The Cole Train on Nov 29, 2011 4:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Well...Sintim would've worked out in Spagnuolo's scheme. Most people were mocking him to us in the 1st round.

Dillard, I dunno, I guess they saw something in him. They got a steal in Jacquain, and there was a reason Paysinger and Herzlich chose the Giants. I highly doubt they devalue a position like that to purposefully avoid the players. I think Reese goes into the draft trying to pick the best players that are left. At least in the first few rounds.

Look at the first two rounds of Giant drafts and go back to 2006/2007. Each one of those players was either a first, or a fringe 1st round prospect. Based on teh scouting community, amateur draftniks, and the media…..they were all steals, and that’s because he went BPA. nobody is perfect. Jamarcus Russell was the consensus 1st overall player by EVERYBODY…scouts, fans, media, teams all included.

I support the Giants like bras support Kim Kardashian's boobs. It can be a struggle, we've had some jiggles, but we're still firm.

by BigBlueIntervention on Nov 29, 2011 5:01 PM EST up reply actions  

I think this is extremely well written

like I have said a million times Jerry Reese seems to be behind the times. He seems to be holding to doing things the old way.

If you see the look at the top teams in the power rankings most if not all of them have dominant TE’s (NE has two, greedy jerks) and dominant LBs. I’m sorry but JR really needs to start changing the philosophy a little before the Giants get left behind in the dust.

by rcnt123 on Nov 29, 2011 4:49 PM EST reply actions  

New England didn't need TE's when they went into the draft

but hell, they went ahead and drafted TWO. If that’s not the straight up definition of BPA, then I’m an idiot. What they needed, and what they have needed for quite some time are pass rushers. They waited until the last rounds to get them.

In the first round last year, they got Nate Solder when they had Sebastian Vollmer and Matt Light…both good starters. They could have had Cameron Jordan, Corey Liuget, Muhammad Wilkerson or others that fit their needs a lot more.

I support the Giants like bras support Kim Kardashian's boobs. It can be a struggle, we've had some jiggles, but we're still firm.

by BigBlueIntervention on Nov 29, 2011 4:55 PM EST up reply actions  

what do you mean they didnt need?

they had Ben watson and Chris baker (not the touchdown maker). If that’s not need I don’t know what is. The game is changing to a passing league. Which not only means gather up wide receivers this also means DOMINANT TEs. Did you want Bellichick to wait until Ben watson died on the field to then draft a TE? cmon BBI I know your smarter than that

by rcnt123 on Nov 29, 2011 5:05 PM EST up reply actions  

C'mon now, r....

does Brady need pass catching TE’s? More weapons on offense? He never needed them before. He just needed ones to block. The needs of that team were on defense that year and you know it. Yet it was ignored for what were pass-catching TEs at the time. Hernandez wasn’t even terrific at Florida….he was injured a lot. Yet, since he was an athletic freak, BB drafted him.

Sounds a lot like what JR does. Draft BPA, Draft athletes, strengthen your strengths.

I support the Giants like bras support Kim Kardashian's boobs. It can be a struggle, we've had some jiggles, but we're still firm.

by BigBlueIntervention on Nov 29, 2011 5:09 PM EST up reply actions  

You sir are wrong

Packers won the SB without Finley and with no domintant TE

Steelers lost the SB with Heath Miller

The Jets and Bears lost their Conference Championships with Dustin Keller and Greg Olsen

Baltimore, New England, Atlanta and Seattle lost in the divisional playoffs with Todd Heap (not dominant), Rob Gronkowski & Aaron Hernandez (great rookie years, but hardly “dominant” last year), Tony Gonzalez (dominance can be argued here) and John Carlson

Indianapolis, Kansas City, New Orleans and Philadelphia lost in the wild card round with Dallas Clark, Tony Moeaki, Jimmy Graham (who only started to come on late last year) and Brent Celek.

How many dominant TEs played in the playoffs last year? 2-3 total on the 12 playoff teams.

by Badshaw44 on Dec 1, 2011 1:58 PM EST up reply actions  

That's the thing though

BOTH of the TE’s started killing it. Hernandez was in the 4th. We could have used a TE like that. Boss is good but he ain’t great. Now of course it’s all speculation but based on their history TE is something they won’t draft unelss it’s late,late. Hernandez playing at the level he is warrants a 2nd at least and he could have been had by anyone in the 3rd and 4th. If every position was the same maybe he’s in blue.

by The Cole Train on Nov 29, 2011 5:07 PM EST up reply actions  

But isn't that it, though? If he had that sort of talent, why did he last till the 4th?

The Pats from that drafted Devin McCourty, Jermaine Cunningham, Rob Gronkowski, Brandon Spikes, Taylor Price from the first 3 rounds.

Out of them, Gronkowski has been great. McCourty was great last year, awful this year. Cunningham, lol. Spikes is mediocre, and Price, lol. See any real pass rushing threats there? Cunningham was a better run defender coming out of college. One pick after the Pats picked him? Carlos Dunlap.

Every team makes mistakes. Easy to look at the Giants and say the eff up because they go BPA, but a lot more of their picks pan out than we give them credit for relative to other teams.

I support the Giants like bras support Kim Kardashian's boobs. It can be a struggle, we've had some jiggles, but we're still firm.

by BigBlueIntervention on Nov 29, 2011 5:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Weed

he got caught with it and his stock fell. I’m not saying the Giants effed up but they are limiting draft choices just because those positions can be filled later. Which sometimes is the case but should never be relied upon.

by The Cole Train on Nov 29, 2011 5:23 PM EST up reply actions  

no

:O)

good post

I may not be the most noble of men but in a town of lepers, im the one with the most fingers.

Giant LB'zz SUCK!! Mark Herzlich, Greg Jones,Jacquian Williams,Paysinger...Maybe not..

by Troy O on Nov 29, 2011 5:04 PM EST reply actions  

No

Details of the operations of an interstate dog fighting ring were revealed, with some portions involving drugs and gambling. Gruesome details involving abuse, torture and execution of under-performing dogs ... He admitted to being involved in the destruction of 6–8 dogs, by hanging or drowning...

by Simms-McConkey on Nov 29, 2011 7:40 PM EST reply actions  

I would hope

That our draft strategy changes this year since unlike the past few years we have areas of need.

QB-Obviously we are set.

RB-I like Bradshaw and I think Scott has all of the tools in the world to succeed. Game breaking speed, perfectly sized at 5’11 210lbs, and has the ability to catch the ball out of the backfield. However, the Giants need to add an extra body to our RB corps whether it’s through the draft or FA. The absence of a reliable screen game has been KILLING us.

WR-I think we’re set with what we currently have…Even if Ham leaves. I’ve liked some of the things I’ve seen from Barden.

TE-Ballard was fantastic weeks 4-8 but he’s majorly slowed down since due to teams actually game planning for him. No longer is he the beneficiary of wide open catches in the middle of the field. Ballard doesn’t have the athletic ability to create separation on his own and the recent drops have been ugly. I would like to keep Ballard around as a TE-2 but not the main guy. We need to draft or sign a big, athletic tight end to give Eli a whole new weapon to play with. I mean, look at how nearly impossible it is to stop New Orleans passing game. Jimmy Graham demands double coverage leaving receivers open to make huge gains after the catch.

OT-I think we are set with Beatty at tackle (I would prefer he moved to RT) for the next handful of years. However, this maybe our most urgent area of concern. McKenzie has gone from being the best RT in the game last year to being one of the worst. Age has really taken a toll on his body and there is no way we can line him up at tackle for another year without putting Eli in harms way.

OG-As much as I don’t like it it’s probably time to say goodbye to both Snee and Diehl.

C-Baas is a solid starter but we need some to draft some depth behind him.

DT-We are fine at this position. Canty has a year or two left in him and Joseph has looked great at times this season. Austin despite never playing a game for us could be our best DT with all of the talent he has.

DE-Even with Osi likely leaving we are set at this position. JPP is the real deal, Tuck just really needs the off-season to heal his body, and Kiwanuka should be slid back into playing DE primarily.

LB-HUGE….HUGE….HUGE area of concern. Having Goff back healthy isn’t going to change that either. We have had a hole in the middle of our defense since the departure of Antonio Pierce. The defensive QB who calls the plays, keeps the guys motivated, and engages in a chess game with the opposing teams QB. If we keep Fewell around another season (I seriously hope not) then that means another season of the Tampa-2 which requires a MLB with speed and the ability to make split second reads to decide to enter into pass coverage or to blitz the line. Boley is the only sure thing we have at LB. I like being able to put Kiwi here in some situations but he’s too much of a liability in pass coverage.

CB-Least area of concern. Webster has been great, Ross still makes his mistakes from time to time but makes up for it with big plays, Prince is a soon to be top-5 CB and hopefully Thomas can be signed for a reasonable deal due to coming off of injury.

Safety-Rolle and Phillips are our guys but it will be a question mark beyond that. Grant has a lot of miles on his body and isn’t the same guy he was last year and despite the great story of Chad Jones we just can’t rely on him. We need to draft or sign a reliable third safety.

Special teams: Fine at kicker and punter but really, really need a reliable punt returner who can return it for a touchdown every now and then.

"The Phoenix Suns always get the retarded brother; Markieff Morris, Taylor Griffin, Robin Lopez, and the Collns twin."-Some dude from Twitter.

by TheRza82 on Nov 30, 2011 1:00 AM EST reply actions  

wishful thinking on a lot of players here

RB- Scott has the physical tools but we still don’t know much about how that plays out on the field
TE- For JR, blocking is the #1 skill, everything else comes after
OG- Snee is not going anywhere, at least not after this year
C- Baas is below average and gets hurt a lot
DE- Osi is only leaving if we trade/cut him, I don’t know if that happens. Some of Tuck’s injuries can hopefully be fixed by resting, but his neck injury is likely to plague him for the rest of his career. Hopefully we improve enough and stay healthy at LB so Kiwi can come back to DE permanently.
CB- 2 games and Prince is going to be a top-5 CB soon? C’mon man. Webster’s good but struggles more with speed guys. Ross is OK and probably gone after this season anyway. Hopefully TT can be close to 100% since he tore his ACL early.

by Badshaw44 on Dec 1, 2011 2:13 PM EST up reply actions  

BPA with consideration of

Scheme. You look at what Fewell likes to run: three safety sets. Three safety sets! I think this also would partially explain the one bank-breaking free agency acquisition Reese has made since becoming GM, in signing Antrelle Rolle. Also, Reese needed to put the CC Brown days behind him in a big way. Bet Sheridan was thrilled to see what Fewell was working with when he started as DC.

Chad Jones being healthy would have been huge for this defense. He has the size to come up into the box, and the guy played centerfield in college. I’d like to think I could have never committed some of Grant’s abysmal play to memory if Chad Jones never got into that car accident. Well, that’s not completely fair. I like Grant, but he is overmatched at times (as he was Monday Night on Jimmy Graham). Also, having Brees break his ankles pissed me off.

However, if Fewell is indeed fired at some point in the near future, we will have a great excess at this position.

I agree with your assessment, but I think Reese also is a little full of himself, having contributed a couple pieces to the puzzle in his first year (with what was already a playoff team). I’m not saying he’s terrible, but I think he gets a little carried away with his ability to find the late round “gems”, hiding it under a BPA philosophy. Sometimes they are there, but you can’t bank on it, especially when it comes to the offensive line.

by Max Schwager on Nov 30, 2011 1:51 AM EST reply actions  

to some degree yes

The Giants need to go into the draft with the idea of taking the BPA at positions of need. They need to upgrade the LBs, OL, TE, and possibly RB. Why not go to the draft at pick 18 or whatever they get, and take the BPA at those positions unless there is absolutely nobody worth taking. Unfortunately we will probably see Reese take another WR or DE in the draft. Maybe they can get another great DE and misuse him and put him at safety or something. After all there is already a great DE playing OLB and one of the young stars of the league at DE playing DT.

by Ualtar on Nov 30, 2011 9:31 AM EST reply actions  

er…first round of the draft not just the draft in general.

by Ualtar on Nov 30, 2011 9:31 AM EST up reply actions  

Sorry dude but that makes no sense at all.
The Giants need to go into the draft with the idea of taking the BPA at positions of need

And much of what your saying reminds me of the Eagles drafts.. Add up the quality of the past 5 drafts to that of the eggs and its not even close.

I may not be the most noble of men but in a town of lepers, im the one with the most fingers.

Giant LB'zz SUCK!! Mark Herzlich, Jacquian Williams,...Maybe .. Sadly this has been modified.

by Troy O on Dec 2, 2011 3:05 PM EST up reply actions  

O line philosophy

If it is true that JR prefers to draft o linemen in the third round or later, that would be fine if all the other teams in the league did the same. Since many other teams are willing to draft o linemen in the first and second rounds, it stands to reason that they would have better o lines than the Giants.

by wkh19 on Nov 30, 2011 10:25 AM EST reply actions  

the Giants had a top tier OL for a number of years

with a 5th round guard at LT, an undrafted FA LG, a scrap heap veteran at OC, a 2nd round RG and a $30million RT.

For whatever reason the Giants OL has taken a dump this year, but its definitely not cuz they didn’t throw top picks at it.

Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows

by Rorschach44 on Nov 30, 2011 11:06 AM EST up reply actions  

why do you keep saying OC

is there a defensive center?

Details of the operations of an interstate dog fighting ring were revealed, with some portions involving drugs and gambling. Gruesome details involving abuse, torture and execution of under-performing dogs ... He admitted to being involved in the destruction of 6–8 dogs, by hanging or drowning...

by Simms-McConkey on Nov 30, 2011 3:14 PM EST up reply actions  

yes

just stick your head between your legs and you’ll see it

Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows

by Rorschach44 on Dec 3, 2011 9:32 AM EST up reply actions  

.

Details of the operations of an interstate dog fighting ring were revealed, with some portions involving drugs and gambling. Gruesome details involving abuse, torture and execution of under-performing dogs ... He admitted to being involved in the destruction of 6–8 dogs, by hanging or drowning...

by Simms-McConkey on Nov 30, 2011 3:14 PM EST reply actions  

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