In Perry Fewell's Defense. . .
by AJ_in_VA on Oct 13, 2011 5:48 PM EDT
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PrintOk, I don't claim to be any kind of X's and O's guy. But I hardly think it's a slam dunk that Fewell's defensive scheme is to blame for the degradation of the defense's performance over last year. Last year was pretty good, but there were problems with big plays in the air.
I know everyone here knows about the Giants' injuries this year, but I don't think I've seen anyone list them out for the defense in one place. So let's start there:
Here are all the guys, by my count, lost for the season by the Giants since training camp. Defensive players in bold:
- Martell Mallett, RB
- Martin Parker, DT
- Bruce Johnson, CB
- Woody Turenne, CB
- Brian Witherspoon, CB
- Terrell Thomas, CB
- Duke Calhoun, WR
- Clint Sintim, OLB
- Marvin Austin, DT
- Sam Giguere, WR
- Sage Rosenfels, QB
- Brian Jackson, S
- Jonathan Goff, MLB
- Domenik Hixon, WR
- [11-1-11 Update, just to keep a running record somewhere] Justin Tryon, CB
- [11-24-11 Update] Michael Coe, CB
- [11-27-11 Update] Michael Clayton, WR
- [11-30-11 Update] Will Beatty, LT
- [12-7-11 Update] Stacey Andrews, OT
Okay, so that's 9 out of 14 defensive players lost for the entire season since the start of training camp. Of those, four were CB's (one starter, two solid second tier depth), one a starting MLB and one a backup SAM/possible starter at OLB. One DT was a high potential rookie to be the 4th DT. Of those nine, at least five would have made the team.
Now let's move on to defensive guys not lost for the season who have missed notable time:
- Justin Tuck, DE, pro bowl player and the team's best defender. Has played in two of the first five games. Questionable/doubtful for week 6.
- Osi Umenyiora, DE, has played in two of the first five games, missed the first three.
- Prince Amukamara, CB, first round rookie regarded by most as ready to contribute well in his rookie season, lost since his first day of training camp until at least week 8.
Okay, so you look at this list and the first thing that jumps out is that any plans Fewell had for the secondary going into training camp were wiped out. So, the team improvised by resigning aging veteran Grant and returning to the three safety nickel set from last year as an emergency measure. That moved Antrel Rolle to nickel CB, where he is not very good but he was better than any obvious off the shelf option, and he at least knows the defense. The defense lost speed in the secondary, and lost run support from the safeties by putting Rolle in the nickel slot in coverage.
The second thing that jumps out is the hit the linebackers took in experience. Goff was a great run stopping MLB who was looking sharper and quicker on his coverage reads in the preseason. Sintim was a big question mark and had already lost his SAM job to Kiwinuka, but he was also depth and he knew the system. So the middle of the field was forced to rely on more inexperienced, albeit talented, rookies in the linebacking corps.
The last thing that jumps out is how the defensive line has not had its awesome DE corps all healthy at once. Without the emergence of beastie Jason Pierre Paul in his second year, the line would also be a real fiasco. The line has still been able to generate pass pressure, but with Tuck's injuries, has been weakened a bit against the run.
Now, if your name was Perry Fewell, a lot of people could forgive you for having a couple of quiet "why me?" moments in around the first week of September.
Conclusion: So, like I said, maybe his scheme is not the best. I myself have no real way of knowing. But the offensive plan in place right now was not the plan going into the season. The Giants adjusted back to the three safety set in response to the decimation of the CB corps. We're already seeing Plan B. And Plan B, as an imperfect option, is so far limiting the team's exposure to the big pass plays that killed the team last year, which the higher ups dinged Fewell for in public during the off season. The defense is hurting now against the run and against passes over the medium middle.
But when you look at all those injuries all together, how many there are, who they are, and at what positions, is that really any kind of surprise? Especially when you're relying on rookies who did not have the full off season to learn due to the lockout?
UPDATE: Fewell has some interesting comments about adjusting to dealing with the opposing offense going no huddle. Just passing along for information, not commenting on the article.
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rec'd
that’s two great pieces in a row, AJ…awesome
nywins42 needs a new screen name - "nywins46" sounds great!
MAKE IT WORK!!!
great stuff indeed
It seems my earlier comment in another post may have provoked this and I would like to clear up that I am in no way discounting the injuries that our Giants have had to deal with. But despite the injuries I still think the scheme we are playing fails to maximize the potential of the players that we do have healthy right now. Fewell’s job certainly hasnt been easy thanks to the injuries but I sitll think there are ways to improve thew defense but he is being stubborn and trying to make his scheme work even when it isnt.
I'm looking for Ray Finkle.....and a clean pair of shorts.
well, I've been seeing a lot of it, and it just felt to me like
this perspective was getting a little lost.
So it wasn’t just you, it was more like, I expanded on my comment to you to put it in once place.
Because, really, while we all followed the injuries week by week (hour by hour?), we never actually collected them all in one place.
When you do that, it sticks out a little.
That’s the only reason I did this.
@Patricia_Traina Under TC, the Giants are 53-24 when they rush for 100+ yards and 15-25 when they don't.
ya i hear you
when you look at them all in one place it really magnifies just how crazy its been
I'm looking for Ray Finkle.....and a clean pair of shorts.
it's fishy to me AJ
I mean, I’m still giving this guy (fewell) the side-eye
Obviously we’re hurting right now, we know that, heck everyone knows that….it’s a running joke throughout the NFL right now how banged up we are.
Fewell of course has taken it upon himself to remind us of that a couple of times now as well….thanks Perry.
1) That fact is, yes, no TT hurts…and I think one big issue is getting Rolle outta the slot.
The natural soluation is putting Ross out there or a healthy Prince right? Of course Ross is now having to start and Prince is hurt. BUT…let’s be real….last year Ross was healthy, and Fewell, especially later in the season prefered Rolle in the slot to Ross! So how can we automatically assume Rolle wouldn’t be playing Nickel CB w/ a healthy TT this year anyways? and how can we automatically assume that he would feel the same way about Prince (given Prince was healthy)…especially this early in the season, and remember kids…w/ practically no off season.
2) Having said that…if we can’t assume that Rolle wouldn’t be playing in the slot this season, how can we ignore our other huge issue, which is D. Grant playing this much Cover 2 Safety? I mean, who else would Fewell put back there? Brian Jackson?! I don’t think so. Naturally w/ Rolle in the slot, Grant goes back there, and sorry, Sash ain’t there yet, but if Grant keeps playing like this…we’ll see him sooner or later.
3) Goff also hurts…I can’t really dispute that. Our D vs the Run is suffering. Can we say that’s why we’re in Nickel a lot? very well could….but we all know PF does loves himself some NIckel D.
4) And one of my bigger concerns. the Rotation of the Dline. Last year PF was dead set w/ his starting 4. Maybe they were consciously trying to run Cofield into the ground but the DTs hardly came off the field, Canty too. This year, it’s a mission to identify the front 4 pre snap…DE’s are sprinkled in all over the place, Kiwi is playing DE, JPP and Tolly are playing inside….I don’t get it….and I don’t know if a healthy Tuck solidifies anything, he’d probably have Tuck playing NT or something. I’m being serious too.
5) Enough w/ the injuries already, we know they suck….but if this continues, when does the Scheme start to make up for the deficiencies?!?! that’s what I wanna know? When do you say enough is enough, I gotta protect this secondary and i’m gonna do that by killing the QB! Fewell keeps saying “injuries this, that”…what are we supposed to think? that’s it for the season? mail it in? give him a mulligan and go at ’em next season?
that’s why I love me some Coughlin too, b/c TC would never use that as an excuse….even though we all know it is.
TeamJPP
good points. . .
Again, I don’t pretend to know anything for sure in the players execution versus defensive scheme debate. But that’s actually my main point: none of us really know
That said, let me see if I can reply item by item:
1. Agree.
2. Well, PF was always going top play some version of a Cover 2, it’s just a matter of who the two are. The plan was KP and AR, with spot relief maybe by Sash or even, yes, perhaps a Grant if he resigned. Or maybe someone else with more long term upside. But the difference this year is we went from a plan of a base of two safeties, even in the nickel, to three.
3. If Goff were healthy I think we’d be seeing fewer 5 DB sets, and more of a mix. Yes, PF likes his insurance against the big play over the top, but at the very least, Goff would be mixed in more except perhaps for the more obvious passing downs.
4. Heh. I don’t think he’s have Tuck at DT unless he was going full NASCAR with 5 down lineman on obvious pass plays. Kiwi played more DE last week, but in general, the changing looks at match ups in the DL don’t really seem to be a big problem, at least to me. I think with Tuck out he’s rotating Tolly and others to improvise, keep people fresh, and maybe find a hot hand. But the DL is the least of our defensive worries, except when maybe Osi sells out to the pass and misses run contain, or when we generally don’t have enough run stuffing on that side of the line.
5. a) The team and the coaches absolutely can’t think about injuries, they have to play the best they can with the cards they have, no excuses. My point is PF and TC made a decision to adjust to the injuries with the 3 safety set. It’s not working as well as it did last year, for a few reasons, but I don’t know about any obvious solutions beyond players sticking with their responsibilities and making better reads, with the personnel we have available.
5. b) But just because players and coaches can’t think about the injuries because they have to figure out a way to win, we’re not them. We’re outsiders. So when we as fans try to evaluate the performance, we can take account of the injuries as we review, because the injuries in fact do matter, especially when they decimate one position.I’m just thinking like an analyst here, but if I think as a fan, I watch every week every down and hope that things can improve or change. Because, in fact, you never know. So no, I don’t recommend giving up. I just also don’t recommend anyone set themselves up with expectations that might be too much of a stretch. Better to have more moderate expectations and maybe be pleasantly surprised, that’s the way I prefer it, anyway.
@Patricia_Traina Under TC, the Giants are 53-24 when they rush for 100+ yards and 15-25 when they don't.
I agree
but I also “conjured” up a lot of ideas when Fewell first came aboard…and I remember how a lot of fans were trying to convince themselves (myself included) that Fewell wasnt’ really a C2 coach, and that we’d still see a lot of press coverage and blitzes, single high, etc.
I can’t say for sure that what we’d envision…would really come to fruition.
TeamJPP
yeah, he's clearly a cover 2 or modifies Tampa 2 guy
He has his own spin on it, and there are modifications that are different from, say, the Bears cover 2 and the classic Tampa 2, but it’s a scheme that comes from the same family tree.
He wants to create pressure up front and limit big plays on the back end. I think he’s like to do more 5 man blitzes but that means a bit more zone coverage so no one is on an island. So, with that as a preference (even though he’s not doing as much blitzing now), he does need his players to learn and become automatic in their reads for zone assignments.
I think he’s hoping to get the back 7 more consistent and comfortable with their roles and reads and, once he sees consistency there. he may feel secure enough to dial up and mix in a little more extra pressure.
@Patricia_Traina Under TC, the Giants are 53-24 when they rush for 100+ yards and 15-25 when they don't.
I think that this was the plan.
During the nickle packages TT was going to move over to the slot and Ross was going to come in and play on the outside. This would have allowed Rolle to hang back in his safety position. This sounded like a good plan to me, because, say what you will about Ross’s play at corner this year, it’s far better this year on the outside than it was last year in the slot.
by 91SBLASTGAME on Oct 13, 2011 9:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I hoped that was the plan
I do.
I wished that was the plan all of last year actually. I’m not saying Take Rolle outta the box as a S. Just take him outta the slot as a Nickel CB.
I hoped that was the plan this year….maybe it still will be…Tryon is getting up to speed and Prince should be back in what? 3-4 more weeks?
We’ll see…
TeamJPP
just a guess, but. . .
When AR went public and said he would not play safety, and TT said he was actually looking forward to playing the slot and even preferred it. . .
Well, I don’t think TT would say that if he did not think it was at least a very strong possibility.
@Patricia_Traina Under TC, the Giants are 53-24 when they rush for 100+ yards and 15-25 when they don't.
I think that TT said that b/c Prince got drafted
not b/c of Ross and certainly not b/c Ross said he woudln’t play S.
but b/c TT says that, again, are we just trusting Prince to the outside…and would Fewell trust Ross if he had no other choice but to?
TeamJPP
oh I agree
TT’s comments were not related to Ross’s comments, not in reaction to Ross’ comments.
As for who might be on the outside in the nickel opposite CWeb, I think Prince and Ross would have been competing for the job, at least, that was the plan.
@Patricia_Traina Under TC, the Giants are 53-24 when they rush for 100+ yards and 15-25 when they don't.
that's fair...
I thought a lot of options could have been considered and still will mind you…after all Prince is coming back.
so I think Prince when he does come back will obviously be used in the Nickel BUT who’s to say where? in the slot maybe? or maybe they move Cweb to the slot and let Prince play outside b/c it’s less thinking involved? Maybe they do let Prince play the slot? either way, we both agree that Prince or Tryon now has to step up moving forward b/c A) we need Rolle outta the slot and B) we need Grant off the field
but again, that really hasn’t changed much from what we needed last year….but maybe PF just realized this…which is fair. it’s not like hes’ been a NYG fan his whole life like us.
TeamJPP
do you think we had the depth at CB last year to pull it off?
Goff was also not yet proven and was off the field for obvious passing plays, so that also moved the needle more toward three safeties. Grant was no speedster last year but he was quicker than he is now.
As for Prince, I don’t think he will see real game time until maybe week 10. Remember, he hasn’t practices with the 1’s or even 2’s at all. The only thing he’s been able to do is watch film. He been able to get no coaching on technique for the pros or get experience making reads at NFL speed.
I think his development has been slowed a lot by this injury, at least for this year. If he starts practicing going in to week 8, it may take a couple of weeks at least to work his way into some nickel sets.
I’m actually hoping Tryon earns his way in there first, giving Prince more cushion to develop and learn.
@Patricia_Traina Under TC, the Giants are 53-24 when they rush for 100+ yards and 15-25 when they don't.
I think so
I think Ross could have been used more.
He was trusted upon to start wk. 17 when Cweb was hurt. (had no choice really though)
he was trusted vs. the Eagles that one game when he had like 2-3 PDs vs. Avant but also blew contain on that one running play by Vick. What was lost in that effort was that he covered well, granted it was Avant but he is a slot WR.
I know Giants fans have a rollercoaster ride w/ Ross…and the truth is, Rolle wasn’t BAD last year in the slot, but as we saw he can be exposed at certain times. Same can be said for Ross, but at least you put Rolle back at Safety full time.
TeamJPP
A healthy Tuck
is our best D-Lineman period. Over the gaurd, outside the tackle, wherever. Missing him we are a much lesser defense. We have the horses to still compete but JT is the glue to the Giants defense.
Now in section 133.
by Last year in Sec 127 on Oct 14, 2011 9:57 AM EDT up reply actions
+1
Tuck is the best player on the team.
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
by Rorschach44 on Oct 14, 2011 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions
after Bomar
Details of the operations of an interstate dog fighting ring were revealed, with some portions involving drugs and gambling. Gruesome details involving abuse, torture and execution of under-performing dogs ... He admitted to being involved in the destruction of 6–8 dogs, by hanging or drowning...
by Simms-McConkey on Oct 14, 2011 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions
way after Bomar
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
by Rorschach44 on Oct 14, 2011 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Nice work, recd
I think the injuries may have tied his hands somewhat, but it still doesn’t explain why there has been such reluctance to shake things up or take a stab at pressure, especially against less established QBs.
It’s already a wrap… might as well not show up tomorrow.
Football - It's Beyond an Addiction, It's a Way of Life.
by Eagladelphia on Sep 24, 2011 11:12 PM EDT reply actions
SEPT 25 - Giants 29 - Eagles 16
there's always a blend of trying to shake up versus train consistency and continuity
Now, I’m not knee jerk proponent of continuity – I am calling for Diehl to lose his starting job, after all – but for the defense, with so many new players and no real off season, I’m not ready to create more turmoil before we can get a bit more consistency out of the talent we have to function as a unit on the field.
@Patricia_Traina Under TC, the Giants are 53-24 when they rush for 100+ yards and 15-25 when they don't.
also, about pressure and blitzing more guys
PF tried that against Washington in the opener. It didn’t work out so well, as Grossman got the ball out quickly and short and took advantage of our weaker – and shorthanded due the the extra blitz – coverage.
True, we didn’t have Osi then, and we did have Tuck. But with less speed in the secondary (three safeties, including Grant), and rookies in the LB corps (Williams, Jones), struggling in coverage, blizing extra guys that often made Grossman look a lot better than he is.
So, after that game, the defense relied on getting pressure with the front four more often to protect against the bigger plays and try to force more third and long. And it was working. It worked against Philly pretty damn well.
But we also put more film out there, and offenses have been adjusting. Now we have to figure out how to address the problems offenses have been exposing. That may or may not involve more 5 man blitzes.
@Patricia_Traina Under TC, the Giants are 53-24 when they rush for 100+ yards and 15-25 when they don't.
We are not jamming receivers and getting the pass rush going. Live or die by the blitz. We are not getting to the QB’s period that needs to happen. Even make QB’s sweat a bit would be great. We don’t even do that.
The Giants lead the NFL with 18 sacks through week 5
The Giants are currently 19th out of 32 teams in defensive points surrendered per game.
They are 22nd in rushing yards allowed per game and 18th in passing yards surrendered per game.
So, they are getting pressure from the DL up front, and are arguably the best in the league at it.
Whatever the problems on defense are, they do not include lack of pressure on the QB.
@Patricia_Traina Under TC, the Giants are 53-24 when they rush for 100+ yards and 15-25 when they don't.
1st in sacks, 3rd in PDs, tied for 1st in FF...
there is talent on the Defensive side of the ball, even w/ these injuries.
but 19th in points, 22nd in rushing and 18th in passing….
I mean, individually the stats suggest that this team is very skilled on D….as a whole, those numbers are run of the mill
TeamJPP
One possible explanation is. . .
even with the injuries, the team has enough playmakers but not enough players playing on the same page at the same time consistently. That is Fewell’s argument. It’s certainly understandable with all the turnover nd injuries leading to discontinuity, and not enough time for rookie replacements to learn in the short preseason.
Flynner, others, maybe you as well, think the scheme allows for too much bend leading to break. That’s also possible.
But it’s damn hard to know for sure.
My take is, since the defense was a lot better last year, my gut says PF system can work. Since the weakness last year was the big play in the air, his first priority is to prevent that this year.
As far as I’m concerned, I could care less about yard on the ground or the air, I just care about points. But yeah, by that measure, this is a middle of the road defense so far.
@Patricia_Traina Under TC, the Giants are 53-24 when they rush for 100+ yards and 15-25 when they don't.
Just observations
I don’t feel like they are aggressive enough,
I never thought I’d say anything like this but… watching the Lions on Monday night, you could see an aggressive defense and all of the havoc that putting pressure on the Offense can create. They looked like us in the superbowl.
Just wish perry would take the leash off of this defense occassionally. They always seem to be too undercontrol.
You down wit JPP?
true, but they were also up against the Bears OL
We sacked Cutler 9 times last year and put him out of the game.
Video, for old times sake!
@Patricia_Traina Under TC, the Giants are 53-24 when they rush for 100+ yards and 15-25 when they don't.
I agree with both of you
Despite my personal distaste for Cover 2 zone, this defense can work. But there has to be some flexbility/aggressiveness mixed in.
The announcers last week mentioned that Baldwin had texted TJackson during the week to say he ffound a hole in our defense. Then he came out and put up the numbers to prove it. Baldwin is an undrafted free agent rookie. If he can see the holes three months into his pro career, so can everyone else.
"Looks like I picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue."
also, all those numbers get better if the Giants can get the OL and running game sorted
The defense is on the field way too much this year so far.
@Patricia_Traina Under TC, the Giants are 53-24 when they rush for 100+ yards and 15-25 when they don't.
its been happening at least since the "miracle" game
and probably sooner. Its the running game we need. Sustain drives, keep the D off the field and rested so they can ratchet up the blitzes when they get out there.
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
by Rorschach44 on Oct 14, 2011 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions
All of that and my primary gripes about Fewell
are still there.
All of this is just my opinion.
He relies too heavily on the front four to create pressure. With as good as these guys are, they are still outnumbered on every snap. There needs to be more blitzes called (especially on JPP’s side of the field) to hit home and force some mistakes. Our LB’s can’t cover anyway so why waste them dropping back, yeah I get it ya can’t just let guys run free, but sending at least one of the 3 on certain downs (nickle sets using the 3rd CB) really wouldn’t give anything up that isn’t already there, which brings me to my second gripe…
Why do the CB’s play 10 yards off the receiver almost all of the time. They are built on pressuring the QB, which means the ball should and does come out quickly, which means the DB’s should anticipate this and be in position (not 10 yards downfield) to make a play on the ball, or force the QB to hold the ball for that extra beat that the line and LB’s need to get to him.
One of the best plays I’ve seen this year was in Arizona, when CWeb (at least I think it was him) jumped all over Larry Fitz’s shallow slant to prevent the first down as time was running out. To me it’s the perfect example of where or corners need to be to take advantage of the pressure the front four plus 1 or 2 can generate.
Overall I feel like Fewell’s scheme is not to lose the game, this is an attitude I hate. As Herm Edwards said… “You play to win the game!” There is too much caution and not enough risk taking. I get it, they’re trying to limit the big play but they are far too concerned with the big play and are getting eaten up by what they allow all day long.
Offenses become aware of the cautious attitude and are able to walk the ball down the field on us all day. This will wear them down over the course of the game due to all the extra snaps. With our short bench taking a chance and getting burned may be better in the long run than letting the opponent keep our Def on the field for 7 minutes and 16 plays for the same end result.
There needs to be a mix between the caution and risky playcalls in order to keep the opposition off balance and uncomfortable, and I don’t feel like Perry goes to the risky side of Defense, blitzing and pressing the receivers, nearly enough.
Most of this write up is focused on defending the pass because I believe they are fine against the run just as long as they just wrap up and make the tackle!!!
You down wit JPP?
Live and Die by the blitz
I keep seeing that. We blitzed very little against Seattle, but when we did on one occassion: Easy Touchdown.
I am a fan of Kevin Gilbride and I don't care what you say
by Spider Lockhart on Oct 14, 2011 2:54 AM EDT up reply actions
I'll give you this the first few games
Why do the CB’s play 10 yards off the receiver almost all of the time
But the last few they’ve actually been in the general vicinity of the wide receivers
Self-praise is for losers. Be a winner. Stand for something. Always have class, and be humble.
-John Madden
Whistling past the graveyard...
C’mon man.
Our secondary is getting lit up on the long pass over the middle. We’re okay covering the long pass down the sideline (and have a few INTs to show for it) but we’re soft in the middle.
That’s a chalk problem and Fewell is on the hook for it. He’s got the players wearing wristbands that have their assignments written on them this week. Does that sound like an injury problem to you? Are their wrists sore?
by Sfacheem on Oct 14, 2011 6:21 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Well written and insightful.
Nice job.
Lol, do we all forget Bill Sheriden?
you come at the king you best not miss...
by ap1150 on Oct 14, 2011 8:40 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
I think the guy's trying.
But my question is – What is he trying?
There are a pile of injuries on defense, but a coach’s job is to put players in a position to be successful. Even if that means modifying, or even scrapping, the system that has been used. And I just haven’t seen much modification beyond forced modification.
We’ll probably continue to limp on, staying on the field for way too long, and giving up great yardage on big pass plays. Probably, our run defense will continue to be not so good. As bad as I hope against this stuff – it is what it is.
When a team is struggling with (1) running the ball and (2) stopping the run, we have quite a bevvy of things to be concerned about. Tough game on the horizon for us.
Quit playing not to lose. Start playing to WIN! Geeez...
x
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
by Rorschach44 on Oct 14, 2011 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions
x
Details of the operations of an interstate dog fighting ring were revealed, with some portions involving drugs and gambling. Gruesome details involving abuse, torture and execution of under-performing dogs ... He admitted to being involved in the destruction of 6–8 dogs, by hanging or drowning...
by Simms-McConkey on Oct 14, 2011 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions
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