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My problem with the Giants defensive alignment

 

I may lack some of the technical jargon for this discussion, but I have a pretty good handle on the physics of movement, and this is something that has been bothering me since the start of the season.

 

Some people do not like the Cover 2 zone defense we have been playing.  Some people have been criticizing the frequency with which we blitz.  Or the logic behind our occasional 3-man rushes.  My thoughts on these topics vary.  I may not like these elements, but I can live with them.  But I have a very simple, yet influential problem with our base defense.  I do not like the way we line up.

 

4_3_defense_green_block_large_medium

via www.football-plays.com

 

 

From www.football-plays.com/formations/11/4-3-defense-formation.php

This is our base defensive formation.  I call this 4-3 "stacked", where all three linebackers are standing in a row in the middle of the formation.  It is a very common defense.  I DO NOT LIKE IT IN GENERAL.  I HATE IT FOR THE GIANTS.

In my opinion, this does not work with either modern zone and second-level blocking, or with the Giants personnel.  In modern run-blocking schemes, offensive linemen are assigned to block linebackers, either as a primary duty, or more likely after releasing off a defensive lineman.  This defensive alignment allows for a single offensive lineman to block two linebackers.  How?  If the line of scrimmage is not pushed back, the middle linebacker just needs to be held up or pushed to one side on inside runs to wall off one of the outside linebackers.  This linebacker is standing rather flatfooted off the snap, waiting because the play is coming near him.  More than likely he is just shuffling his feet.  He's suddenly surrounded by big, round bodies that weigh more than him.  The running back is hitting the hole with some speed.  Can the outside linebacker tiptoe through a gap without getting pushed around?  Can he suddenly accelerate to force himself through a gap, get push on the pile, or catch the running back as he passes the middle linebacker?  All difficult tasks.  There are too many bodies in the way.

The flatfooted issue also affect outside runs.  Before the running back gets the handoff, the linebackers are trying to read the play.  But it could go inside, it could go outside.  So they are shuffling their feet again.  The running back is going to get the ball and is going to be able to instantly accelerate or cut and accelerate.  He is probably faster than the linebackers.  He is almost definitely quicker in change of direction than the linebackers.  He knows where the play is designed to go.  If it is going out wide, it is a quick foot plant while already moving forward, and go.  The linebacker is in the midst of his foot shuffle.  He must now plant and accelerate.  He was only lined up three feet outside of the QB at the snap.  Is the linebacker going to beat the running back to the sideline?  No.  I take you to Lynch's big outside run to the right last week.  Jacquian Williams was the linebacker on that side.  At the snap, he took two light steps forward.  Those two steps took him completely out of the play.  By the time he turned his hips to run for the sideline, the play was by him.  Many of you did not notice this because he was nowhere near the action.  And he is our fastest linebacker. 

This is the 4-3 formation I would prefer:

1000px-4-3_green

via upload.wikimedia.org

 

From Wikipedia, search topic: formation (American football)

I will call this the 4-3 "split".  The linebackers start out wide and closer to the line of scrimmage.  The WILL is going to have empty space in front of him, the SAM will likely have a tight end.  At the snap, if they make a run read they are free to try and come upfield to prevent the outside run.  They are in a position where they can beat the running back to the outside spot.  Force the run inside to your tacklers.  If the run goes the other direction, they can pursue from the backside to try and eliminate slower-developing cutbacks.  On runs up the middle, they will be running into the play from the side.  Harder to account for with blocking assignments.  They are coming with speed and force, giving them an advantage if they have to go through someone or squeeze through a gap.  The speed is also an advantage with making the tackle.

If you watch the successful runs of McCoy, Wells, and Lynch against us, you will see that the majority of big runs were to the outside, and rarely were linebackers in the play.  The only time Arrington gained yardage against us was on the sideline.  Everyone recalls Kiwi running by Wells on the goal line; what made it memorable was that it was the only time someone other than Webster was on the edge.  McCoy was making cuts out in the flat.  But he had room to make these cuts, and there was space for him to run through.  It was not our linebackers out there forcing the cuts, it was Rolle and the other defensive backs.

Think of what we are asking Boley, Kiwanuka, and Greg Jones to do.  None of these guys are sprinters.  They are probably slower than the average NFL player at their position.  Yet we are asking them to cover large sections of the field.  We are asking inexperienced players to make quick reads to get into the right position.  Meanwhile, the strength of this team is supposed to be the defensive line.  We have plus run stoppers at defensive end in JPP and Tuck, and we have big run-stuffers at defensive tackle.  We should be directing the running backs into them, not away from them.  We should be playing to our strengths.  But our formation at the snap does not allow us to accomplish this goal.

I could also get into the proven failure of one defender up, two defenders back when the offense puts three receivers on one side, but that is for a different day.

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We will be more vulnerable to runs into the A gap

As our DTs really arent very good. At the moment we can rely on the spectacular ability of our DEs (At least when we have Tuck in) to contain the edges on most plays. The Mike should also not be caught flat-footed, its more of a problem for Jones as he is a rookie and his read wont be as fast, but he should be moving the second the ball is snapped and making his read as the play is progressing. This is what makes it hard for him as a rookie as he wont be able to see when he has made a wrong call as early as a veteran would be able to, and will take longer to get back into position. You also have to give Williams a break for making a bad read against Seattle as he is a rookie and thats going to happen.

No longer Top of the BBV fantasy league! Team Figging lives on

by ChuckyofNorris on Oct 13, 2011 1:59 AM EDT reply actions  

why do you say our Tackles aren't good?

i’ve not seen anything to suggest that. they’re not getting pushed off their block consistenly, and i’ve seen alot of good penetration from both starters, and Bernard’s been playing out of his mind.

As to you CT, it’s an interesting thought but my question is how does gap responsibility get affected by this? as chucky said, they’d be hitting those A gaps hella hard on us. do we ask our line to play a half step tighter in to make those gaps smaller? because the OLBzz would def. be susceptible to getting moved outwards by guards and pulling linemen if they made it to that second level. and TE’s as well.

Yes, I am a Giants fan. Now that we got that out of the way....
IMPEACH DOLAN!!!!
I will not - lose! -Jay Z-
Marines say Oorah; BBVer's say SUAMBP! say it with me - Suuaahmbp!!!!

by wilddre22 on Oct 13, 2011 2:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

Now there's a quesiton that needs to be asked.

Are you going to have to pinch the D-line? Because if you do that, doesn’t it sort of take away from the whole idea of “playing to our strengths”? Osi was compared to Trent Cole in his “wide nine” on Sunday…he goes so far around the offensive tackle to get those beautiful strip sacks, if we had to pinch the d linemen wouldn’t we be effectively taking away form our greatest defensive strength of all which is rushing the passer? Do we sacrifice rushing the passer to stop the run?

Win ugly.

by tito (eight and oh) on Oct 13, 2011 2:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

right

there would be a domino effect for any change we do to the defensive alignment. sacrificing the pass rush might be one. it’s that happy balance we need to find to make it all work. because there’s no reason we should be 1st in sacks and 20th in total D. unacceptable.

Yes, I am a Giants fan. Now that we got that out of the way....
IMPEACH DOLAN!!!!
I will not - lose! -Jay Z-
Marines say Oorah; BBVer's say SUAMBP! say it with me - Suuaahmbp!!!!

by wilddre22 on Oct 13, 2011 3:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

All good comments

And yes, what I am advocating places more responsibility on the DTs, especially Canty. Which is a greater strength than our linebackers right now.

Just watched some of the Seattle tape. What I see is the because the LBs are inside, the guards can just run forward off the snap, get a hand on the LB, however briefly, and take them out of the play. It does not require great athleticism. Seattle did not pull guards in great loops around the outside of the OL. Neither did Arizona or Philly. Fullbacks or pulling OL or TE, when used, are coming tight around the end of the line. A chip to help seal the DE inside, then seal all the LBs inside. Basically, keep everyone inside, and let the RB run around in space. Space = no tacklers. I’d rather try to force the runs inside, where tacklers exist, and then try to make adjustments to close gaps.

What we have been doing is not working, so you try something else. And if that does not work, you try something else. But when every team is playing you the same, that means they are seeing something they take advantage of. The Washington loss was an extension of last year – remember when Grossman started to pile up yardage on us in the second half?

"Looks like I picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue."

by ct17 on Oct 13, 2011 7:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

It makes perfect sense in theory ct17

But do you think it would have a negative effect on the pass rush, and would you be willing to deal with that if it stops the opposing teams rushing attack?

Because while the run defense has been struggling immensely, the pass rush is still somewhat thriving even without Tuck out there.

Win ugly.

by tito (eight and oh) on Oct 13, 2011 8:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

It's all about finding a good balance...

the pass rush is on fire in terms of “sacks” but when they haven’t gotten sacks they’ve have gotten very little pass rush.

Banned from GangGreenNation for being a troll for this ONE post after somebody classified the Giants as a LUCKY organization.

He's a bitter Jets fan what do you expect?

That happens when the team you root for hasn’t won in damn near half a century!!

Sour grapes, jealousy will get you nowhere in life lol.

by bleedblue12 on Oct 13, 2011 8:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed completely.

I’m just saying in our base package, you can’t have one without giving up the other. Our pass rush will definitely suffer a bit if a change like this occurred, and I for one would be more than willing to take that hit if it meant stopping the run, at least in the first half of ball games…

Win ugly.

by tito (eight and oh) on Oct 13, 2011 8:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

thats true of ANY base defense

theres always one weakness that can be exploited in any defensive alignment. especially if there’s a longer field in front of the offense. Any adjustment we make in one direction will expose us in another

Nobody wins the Superblow in October.
Talk is Cheap! Play the Game!

by 1giantlion on Oct 17, 2011 6:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think it would affect the pass rush much, Indy last year

If we had a 3-tech that was trying to penetrate the line every play (Sapp, Fairley), then yes it would. But our base DTs are run defenders first. They are lining up over the guards. They expect to be blocked.

I’m not advocating much of a change to the DEs. While Osi is an around-the-end guy, that is not the game that Tuck, Tolly, or JPP play on a consistent basis. So they do not have to be moved either.

What I am advocating is turning the LBs from bowling pins to moving assets. The reason we are having trouble is that the LBs are in easy positions to block, especially for zone blocking teams. The best example is Indy last year. They ran all over us up the middle. Doubled both DTs at the snap. One OL on each DT released, went to Goff and Grant in the middle. The OL could have played that game drunk. Their blocking assignments were right in front of them. If you want to make things difficult for a run blocker, you make them find the guy they have to block. You make the blocker play chase, you give them a target that is moving towards the play.

"Looks like I picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue."

by ct17 on Oct 13, 2011 9:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

Who the O-lineman blocks depends more on the blocking scheme they use

Angle blocking makes the blockers block a particular player based on where they are lined up at the snap, and zone blocking asks the o-linemen to protect a region or open up a running lane in a particular area. For angle-blocking, confusion caused by where defenders are lined up would help, but against a zone-blocking scheme, it’s really just a waste of time

No longer Top of the BBV fantasy league! Team Figging lives on

by ChuckyofNorris on Oct 13, 2011 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

If we have JPP Osi and Tuck comes back after the bye healthy

we still have a good pass rush regardless.

Die hard Giants fan since wide Right! I was 5...

I'm down wit JPP
Yea you know me

Win Ugly.

by wangstu13 on Oct 13, 2011 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Our tackles arent impactful enough to be able to stop runs into the A gaps on their own

They do a decent enough job penetrating and I admit they have been playing quite well this year, but if we but the responsiblity of pushing 3 O-linemen back, theyre going to get beaten most times

No longer Top of the BBV fantasy league! Team Figging lives on

by ChuckyofNorris on Oct 13, 2011 10:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

DT's

Teams have been running through the middle of our Defense… Our DT’s r average at best right now.

by nyfinest314 on Oct 15, 2011 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

no they haven't

they’ve been getting around the edge or finding cut back lanes when the LB’s overreact to the first step.

@Patricia_Traina Under TC, the Giants are 53-24 when they rush for 100+ yards and 15-25 when they don't.

by AJ_in_VA on Oct 15, 2011 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

our DTs are actually very good.

they’re just not on the field together enough

Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows

by Rorschach44 on Oct 13, 2011 8:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

+1

which I can’t understand because they’ve been good to very good this year. JPP in paticular has looked unstoppable from the DE spot and mediocre when they slide him inside. PF thinks because Tuck is a very good pass rusher from the DT spot that any good DE can do it and that’s just not the case.

Banned from GangGreenNation for being a troll for this ONE post after somebody classified the Giants as a LUCKY organization.

He's a bitter Jets fan what do you expect?

That happens when the team you root for hasn’t won in damn near half a century!!

Sour grapes, jealousy will get you nowhere in life lol.

by bleedblue12 on Oct 13, 2011 8:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

It's interesting you keep mentioning that

I have noticed that too. Bernard and Kennedy have gotten significant snaps. While last year, only Canty and Cofield played. Cofield played every snap. And Fewell’s comment was “I play the best guys”. He claimed to not rotate much.

I have to say Bernard is playing better than ever, and Kennedy has made a few plays. But it is delaying Canty and Joseph getting used to playing together.

"Looks like I picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue."

by ct17 on Oct 13, 2011 9:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

yup...

been pointing this out for a while now.

last year he practically never took Canty and Cofield off the field.

however, his ADHD has spread to the Dline….

TeamJPP

by andiamo708 on Oct 13, 2011 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

Actually Canty is pretty good for a DT

And this is Josephs first year as a starter. Can’t really say much after just 5 games of film for him to review and get better. Bernard has been excellent and we have Austin waiting in the wings.

Die hard Giants fan since wide Right! I was 5...

I'm down wit JPP
Yea you know me

Win Ugly.

by wangstu13 on Oct 13, 2011 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

totally agree

especially with Kenny and Rolle playing the run very well right now, they will be able to help the run up the middle, while this takes away the outside

by peterhad on Oct 13, 2011 8:29 AM EDT reply actions  

Is our problem because of our alignment in the 4-3

or because we run a 4-2-5?

"Winning is the most important thing in my life, after breathing. Breathing first, winning next."

by Larry Soprano on Oct 13, 2011 8:30 AM EDT reply actions  

I think it's a littbe bit of both...

and last year I thought Grant played well against the run and he’s been awful all around this year which adds to the problem.

Banned from GangGreenNation for being a troll for this ONE post after somebody classified the Giants as a LUCKY organization.

He's a bitter Jets fan what do you expect?

That happens when the team you root for hasn’t won in damn near half a century!!

Sour grapes, jealousy will get you nowhere in life lol.

by bleedblue12 on Oct 13, 2011 8:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

Such a shame

Grant was a real asset to the defense last year, he looks like he’s losing it a bit in his age.

Win ugly.

by tito (eight and oh) on Oct 13, 2011 8:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

You have softball sunday?

May have a ticket available if you’re interested.

Banned from GangGreenNation for being a troll for this ONE post after somebody classified the Giants as a LUCKY organization.

He's a bitter Jets fan what do you expect?

That happens when the team you root for hasn’t won in damn near half a century!!

Sour grapes, jealousy will get you nowhere in life lol.

by bleedblue12 on Oct 13, 2011 9:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yea buddy

Two more weeks than playoffs.

Tearing it up this fall! 21 for 34 for a .618 average second in the league. 16 rbis, .579 ob%, 1.118 slugging, ops 1.697 all second. 11 Doubles tied for first…only got two home runs but as you know I’m not the biggest guy so usually anything over zero is good for me lol…as long as there’s no rain outs I should be free in November.

Win ugly.

by tito (eight and oh) on Oct 13, 2011 9:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'm a little more pro-Grant

While his run defense has slipped, he’s been back there in his Cover 2 position, not getting burned deep. I won’t blame him for Fitzgerald catching that ball.

"Looks like I picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue."

by ct17 on Oct 13, 2011 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

I have not seen the 4-2-5 as much as last year

Probably because Rolle is playing more of a true nickel CB role than a 3rd safety. I don’t consider it a 4-2-5 if the offense is in 3+ WR sets. And Kiwi is playing a lot of SAM.

"Looks like I picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue."

by ct17 on Oct 13, 2011 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

rec'd

Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows

by Rorschach44 on Oct 13, 2011 8:42 AM EDT reply actions  

x2

Team Greg Jones
Team Jerry Reese

"how the f*** do the giants with 6 starters out comeback while the eagles give up 21 2nd half points to the worst offense in the nfl…" -XxActionJacksonxX

"Heart" - PhiladelphiaEagles

by BigBlueIntervention on Oct 13, 2011 9:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

Step one get some real linebackers

Jwill and Boley get knocked around being light and weak. Jones is tentative and slow. Kiwi is a DE lost a bit in space. This is going to cause issues when you ask these guys to you know, play linebacker.

The split has issues, and I don’t really like it for us. If I were going to scheme a defense for our current personnel it would be the 4-3 under. When the TE is on the field the SAM walks down and plays a 9 tech on him. Kiwi would do well at this role as it is more like a 3-4 OLB than a 4-3 SAM. From there he can blitz or be the edge man blowing up the TE in the run defense. The strong side DE bumps inside of the TE and plays more of an inside technique, Tuck can do this admirably. You then stick your NT on the strongside, this gives you some beef to the strong side of the play. You also hope that NT might warrant a double helping keep your Mike clean. The your 3 tech gets a single from the guard and your weakside DE gets to play wide off the tackle. Your Mike and Will line up off the line in the middle. Each player has just one gap to worry about so they can attack rather than think (good for this group). Your SAM gets to play on the line (good for Kiwi). By design your Will should be clean to make plays with no lineman free to get on him (good for our undersized guys like Boley). Your weakside end gets to play out wide and just run with wild abandon and hit the QB (good for osi and JPP).

by bigblue777 on Oct 13, 2011 9:47 AM EDT reply actions   1 recs

I think the 4-3 under is a good solution as well

If we can give our MIKE and WILL some room to operate. Williams has the speed to still get outside, he just has to learn the game a bit better. Boley may need to work at it.

"Looks like I picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue."

by ct17 on Oct 13, 2011 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

+1 Big fan of the 4-3 Under

I agree Kiwi has looked bad in space and this D would definitely help. Very good idea bigblue777. Rec’d

Banned from GangGreenNation for being a troll for this ONE post after somebody classified the Giants as a LUCKY organization.

He's a bitter Jets fan what do you expect?

That happens when the team you root for hasn’t won in damn near half a century!!

Sour grapes, jealousy will get you nowhere in life lol.

by bleedblue12 on Oct 13, 2011 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

problem is this is not even our de facto base package

Teams are routinely lining up 3 WR’s, so our effective base in now the nickel with 3 safeties.

That alignment is currently containing big plays over the top, with some sacrifice to passes in the middle between the 20’s. And it’s not succeeding against the run.

The Giants traditional philosophy is 4-3. But, as the league gets more pass happy, the actual base is now more 4-2-5. Opponents are able to run around the edges on that, so they can run. Or, if the run counter or have a good cutback runner, they can take advantage of overreaction by Boley and/or (especially) Williams to find a hole. And with KP playing in Nyack the defense that tat point, for 30 yards at least, becomes a 9 man team (once an LB has taken himself out of the play).

At the same time, opponents are saying they will accept the short yardage over the middle this defense gives them, with a chance to open it up for the occasional 15-20 yard gain in the air, in order to get inside the 20. Then the space tightens up, and the Giants do better when the field collapses. It’s the whole bend but don’t break thing. That’s the Giants’ philosophy against the pass and the main effort to prevent successful passing is the pass rush.

We’re hurt a bit against the run without Tuck, though the pass rush is holding up mostly (could still use Tuck to keep people fresh). But Boley and Williams have been getting picked on against the run, and there’s no margin for error left among the DB’s when that happens, especially with KP playing 30 yards off the LOS.

@Patricia_Traina Under TC, the Giants are 53-24 when they rush for 100+ yards and 15-25 when they don't.

by AJ_in_VA on Oct 13, 2011 10:01 AM EDT reply actions  

True about nickel being standard now

Solving that run defense problem could be another post. I nominate you.

"Looks like I picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue."

by ct17 on Oct 13, 2011 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

nah, I don't have those answers

The only options I see are:

1. We deploy a reliable nickel CB (Tryon? Amukamara when he returns?). Then there are only two safeties on the field, and Rolle gets to do his traditional thing more often of either providing help or reacting to the run. That would help protect the short to intermediate middle against the pass and give Rolle more freedom to do do quick run support, where he can be very good. Okay, he overacts to play action sometimes and can get burned over the top, but he does react to the run as a safety.

2. We rely on continuing development from Williams to maintain gap responsibilities and not overreact, help him with his reads every week, lots of film time. Right now he’s making plays with pure motor and speed, but he’s making mistakes on his first reactions and reads. Well, of course, he’s a rookie.

3. I don’t really see other LB options on the roster with the speed needed for this nickel package. Paysinger might be closest but the coaches obviously like Williams better, and you don’t want two rookie LB’s out there if you replace Boley with Paysinger. True, Paysinger has very good football smarts as the son of a coach, but still, he’s a rookie, and Boley is playing well.

4. Pat Traina consistently complains about KP playing so deep, as she thinks KP was a real playmaker with great aggression who has been schemed away from where the plays are and into a passive role. Well, his aggressive strengths are lost back there. That’s her point. I don’t know if I agree, and she does develop her player pet favorites, but she may have a point. Should he be closer in to the LOS? Maybe, but after an off season where PF’s defense got called out for big plays, I would not expect PF to cut down on his biggest insurance policy over the top. In a pass happy league, I understand what he’s doing.

I guess I like Option 1 the best, and I think that was the plan going into the season, but after Thomas, Amukamara, Witherspoon and Bruce Johnson got hurt, they signed Grant and went back to three safeties to improvise as best they could. But we don’t know if Tryon can claim those snaps, we’ll just have to see if the coaches like his practice. And Prince will be a rookie hitting the field just in time for teams like Green Bay and New Orleans. He will make mistakes. Yowza.

@Patricia_Traina Under TC, the Giants are 53-24 when they rush for 100+ yards and 15-25 when they don't.

by AJ_in_VA on Oct 13, 2011 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

Unfortunately with nickel

it comes back to needing better linebackers as you can’t do as much t protect them by scheme when you opt to take some muscle off the field for the nickel corner.

by bigblue777 on Oct 13, 2011 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

OK I'll give one option

Double A gap blitz. Walk the linebackers up into the A gaps and bump out the DTs a bit. At least make the OL have to adjust to the threat of that blitz. That would mean being willing to play some man and even some zero cover to bring them both at times to really be effective as a threat though, and I just don’t see Fewell doing that. He wants them to play back coverage. To do that the LBs need to read their keys properly, make the right reaction, and either attack the run or cover the pass. Our guys are making bad reads, overunning the play, etc. JWill is a chicken with his head cut off out there. Racks up tackles that way, but not necessarily helping the run defense.

by bigblue777 on Oct 13, 2011 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

problem is, bring the D that close and guys like Rodgers pass for 7 TD's

at least, that what I’d expect. When we play Rodgers, Brady and Brees this year, we can’t really risk any zero cover, heavy man packages with no help for the CB’s up top.

In that scenario, it’s not a matter of if, but when, we face a game where we’re down by 21 to start the second quarter. Especially if they go no huddle. At that point we become one dimensional, it’s a shootout, we risk turnovers, total nightmare potential.

@Patricia_Traina Under TC, the Giants are 53-24 when they rush for 100+ yards and 15-25 when they don't.

by AJ_in_VA on Oct 13, 2011 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

It is a risk reward move

To make it work you have to be very physical with the WRs at the line. Punch them in the face and mess up their timing. Remember Rodgers bread and butter is the slant, something that actually kills the off coverage zone stuff we tend towards. To beat that with zone your LB has to recognize and get underneath it for the pick, something our guys aren’t doing. Punch that receiver in the face and give your guys on the line that extra half second to get to the QB. The scheme can work against a prolific passer, it is how we beat Brady and the Pats and they were playing that year like Rodgers and the Pack are playing this year. The potential issue here though is Pierce and Mitchell were far better blitzers with more bulk to bust the A gap than Boley and JWill. I don’t know if they could be as successful in the scheme.

by bigblue777 on Oct 13, 2011 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

yeah, that's my concern, that we don't have the LB's to make that work

@Patricia_Traina Under TC, the Giants are 53-24 when they rush for 100+ yards and 15-25 when they don't.

by AJ_in_VA on Oct 13, 2011 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

Which puts us back to needing better linebackers

If they can’t play blitz from up on the line or handle playing a two gap from off the line what can you really do with them? What you end up doing is dropping the safeties lower and lower to try to compensate for the run game, but then they can’t get the right angle over the top in coverage. If you back them off for coverage the linebackers can’t handle the run one their own. It think this is what has been a difference between early games and recent games. Against the Skins Fewell dropped those safeties down expecting Shanny to run it all day and Grossman to not be able to throw. End result we got torched in the air. Fewell flips to compensate and starts having those safeties back in coverage and bam we are getting run over. I have my issues with Fewell, but I also feel there simply aren’t linebackers on this team good enough to enable him to do anything other than try to compensate for them.

by bigblue777 on Oct 13, 2011 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

There are few teams with three good linebackers

Especially if you are looking for guys that can play the run and pass. Linebackers are in a tough spot – too small to take on linemen, too slow to cover receivers. It would be difficult to name 5 good SAMs in the NFL right now.

When the Giants linebackers are stacked up inside, they are not getting in the slant lanes. They just get in each other’s way.

"Looks like I picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue."

by ct17 on Oct 13, 2011 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is true

but we are talking nickel package here, so we need two solid linebackers. In my mind having three good linebackers is ideal, but I understand the challenge in actually putting together that kind of group. Atlanta has that kind of group and it shows because they’ll play a 3-3-5 for nickel often. You can create some great confusion for the OL with that defense, but you need the LBs. I think you can get away with having a 2 down SAM whose specialty is playing the run if you have a Mike and Will that are three down players. We have a SAM and a Mike in Kiwi and Jones that are run only, and not really even great at that as you’ve noted when playing in space and trying to make reads and cover ground. Then we have a Will in Boley who plays three downs for us, but might be a situational nickel linebacker for others. Then we have absolutely a situational nickel LB in JWill who is going on just speed and motor. We don’t have one complete LB let alone three. That makes trying to devise a good defensive gameplan difficult.

by bigblue777 on Oct 13, 2011 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

A gap blitzing was a staple of Spags D

We are on the same page on this as well BB777.

Banned from GangGreenNation for being a troll for this ONE post after somebody classified the Giants as a LUCKY organization.

He's a bitter Jets fan what do you expect?

That happens when the team you root for hasn’t won in damn near half a century!!

Sour grapes, jealousy will get you nowhere in life lol.

by bleedblue12 on Oct 13, 2011 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

This is a damn good post.

Rec’d 100%

I agree with what you’re saying. The formation you proposed works to the Giants strength. It allows Boley to focus more on covering the TE, lets Kiwi rush the passer more and be a more effective player, lets the CBs play man and not worry as much about containing the outside, allows the safeties to make reads on the play and act accordingly rather than having to worry about getting to the outside, and most importantly forces the opposing team to try to run up the middle, which is playing into our strength.

In a sense, we would be creating a funnel. The outside linebackers and the defensive ends will funnel the running back to the inside, where the MLB and the safeties will have time to react and prevent the big play. With runs in the middle of the field the safeties have the ability to cover and still have time to make the play on the run if the runner gets past the front 7.

It allows our personnel, especially Kiwi, Boley, Rolle, and the Dline to play to their strengths.

Someone send this to Fewell. He needs help.

Well done CT.

"Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

LET'S GO RANGERS!!!

by Moshe52792 on Oct 13, 2011 11:27 AM EDT reply actions  

I just be a lot happier

once we find a Nickel CB

and start blitzing more.

and get Grant off the field.

THAT said….he did press more w/ Webster this weekend than ever before.

it’s just clear to me that whatever Fewell is doing…is a constant work in progress, and I’m worried that even if he does “figure it out”….he’ll devise some other scheme a week later anyways.

I’ve talk about continuity until i’m blue in the face, eventually you gotta stick w/ something b/c the players gotta get used to it….

how can they get used to anythign w/ this guy Fewell is the question? He can’t even commit to anything….

TeamJPP

by andiamo708 on Oct 13, 2011 12:20 PM EDT reply actions  

we have a nickel CB

his name is Tyron or Prince when he gets healthy. Should be good competition for him. I don’t expect Prince to play much anyways.

Die hard Giants fan since wide Right! I was 5...

I'm down wit JPP
Yea you know me

Win Ugly.

by wangstu13 on Oct 13, 2011 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

i know wang

this is baiscally my post from yesterday about getting D. Grant off the field

BUT, the fact is, as long as Rolle is playing Nickel CB…well….we don’t have a Nickel CB

so Tryon and Prince gotta hurry up and get out there.

TeamJPP

by andiamo708 on Oct 13, 2011 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

good post

just one point. The LBs arent supposed to just shuffle their feet & react. Good LBzez read the guards. They can tell you where the ball is going most of the time. obviously it can get a lil more complex than that but if the guard burst off the line straight ahead, its a run. if he stands up, its a pass. Football 101 there. Our LBzez just arent very good so we dont react as quickly to the reads. And when we do, they often over-pursue.

Nobody wins the Superblow in October.
Talk is Cheap! Play the Game!

by 1giantlion on Oct 17, 2011 7:02 AM EDT reply actions  

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