Positional Reviews: Linebacker ... Where, Oh Where Have The Great Ones Gone?
by Ed Valentine on Jan 19, 2011 2:00 PM EST
in New York Giants News
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In our series of 2010 New York Giants positional reviews, we come now to linebacker. This is definitely not a happy place. A position of great prominence in Giants lore it has been virtually ignored for many a year now, and it's sort of like a run-down old buidling. Inhabitable, but not desirable. Or a beat-up old car. It runs, barely, but you know that you desperately need an upgrade.
Let's hope general manager Jerry Reese recognizes this. For years, the Giants -- Reese in particular -- under-valued the safety position. Until, that is, in 2009 putrid play from the safety position basically made it impossible for the Giants to play anything remotely resembling quality defense. We know that Reese responded by aggressively moving to upgrade the position via both free agency and the draft.
It seems that in recent years the Giants have done the same thing at linebacker. Under-valued and de-emphasized the position, largely trying to fill it with mid- to late-round draft picks and veteran cast-offs. In 2010 the Giants pretty much tried to play with as few linebackers on the field as possible. That's a far cry from the days of Lawrence Taylor, Harry Carson, Carl Banks, Brad Van Pelt and even Jesse Armstead.
You might, at best, call the current crop of Giants linebackers serviceable. For the defense to be truly and consistently dominant, though, I believe the Giants need something they don't currently have -- real impact players at that level. I would hope Reese and the Giants look at linebacker somewhat the way they did safety a year ago and aggressively try to upgrade it.
All of that said, let's move on to a look at the individual players.
Jonathan Goff: The third-year player from Vanderbilt did OK in his first season as a starter, which is a lot better than many of us thought he could do. Many of us cringed at the thought of Goff being the starter at middle linebacker, but he held his own. He will never be Ray Lewis in his prime, the question really is 'how much better can he get?' Using the Pro Football Focus numbers, Goff scored a +10.2 overall, 22nd in the league among middle linebackers who played at least 25 percent of their teams defensive snaps. Against the run, Goff was +14.5, ninth in the league. So, his reputation as a two-down thumper proved true. Problem is, Goff played just 700 snaps, 34th in the league amongst middle linebackers. Problem is, he started every game. That tells you there are too many situations, passing ones, where the Giants just don't want him on the field. That's not a good thing for a middle linebacker. Overall, I think Goff did an acceptable job at middle linebacker. Would I like an upgrade? Sure. Do I think it's a priority? No. I think the Giants need better players on both sides of him, to be honest. Overall Grade: Kwillie
Michael Boley: Let me be honest here. I am not a Michael Boley fan, so read my review with that in mind. Boley had 108 tackles for the Giants this season, the second-highest total of his six-year career. He graded out at a +7.8, according to Pro Football Focus (13th among 4-3 outside linebackers) and was one of just nine outside linebackers to play at least 75 percent of his team's defensive stats. All of those nice numbers aside, I just don't like Boley's game. At 223 pounds, he is a finesse linebacker who does not stand up well at the point of attack against the run, where he graded -2.8 in 2010, according to PFF. He has never shown the pass-rushing skills the Giants hoped to see when they brought him from Atlanta. He is OK, but not spectacular in coverage, and he is athletic enough to make plays in space. Ask yourself, though. In two seasons, has he made any memorable impact plays? I can't think of one. I would love to see an upgrade here, but again I think the Giants have other fish to fry. I can live with the guy, I just wish he wasn't lined up behind Osi Umenyiora so often. I think that gives opposing offenses an obvious place to run the ball. Overall Grade: Kwillie
Keith Bulluck: The guy has had a terrific NFL career, but if he wants to continue it next season he needs to do it in another uniform. Bulluck made just 41 tackles, lowest since his rookie season of 2000, in very limited duty with the Giants. He graded at +8.7 per PFF (+5.6 against the run), but how the Giants felt about Bulluck showed in how many snaps he played -- or didn't play. Even in some running situations Bulluck was off the field and safety Deon Grant was in the game. Bulluck played just 315 snaps, 40th in the league among 4-3 outside linebackers. Here's a question, by the way, for Perry Fewell. If Bulluck is good against the run and Boley isn't why was Bulluck off the field instead of Boley so often on early downs? Anyway, Bulluck is a great guy and all but the Giants need an impact player there they trust to leave on the field. Overall Grade: Wet Willie
Clint Sintim: You guys know where I'm going with this one. The Giants expected Sintim to be the play-making outside linebacker they desperately need, and it just isn't happening. Two seasons and Sintim still doesn't seem able to grasp the conversion from a 3-4 outside guy to a 4-3 linebacker. Made just 19 tackles this season, which is fewer than the 26 he made as a rookie. Memo to Reese: When you draft a linebacker this year -- and you will draft one in the early rounds or there will be a mutiny here at BBV -- enough with this drafting guys who played 3-4 in college and need to be converted. Find a guy who has played in a 4-3 and you don't have to 'project' into that scheme. So far, that approach is not working. Grade: Wet Willie
I really can't grade guys like Phillip Dillard, Gerris Wilkinson or Chase Blackburn since we really never saw them. Though I should give Wilkinson a 'Wet Willie' simply on the grounds that he has been useless to the defense for years now.
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any chance sintim can turn into a Kiwi type player, both a DE and a OLB depending on package?
If he’s a 3-4 LB then the transition between the two positions shouldn’t be too difficult
because sintim has had 2 chances
and has blown them both…. jpp came in right off the bat without any real technique and without really knowing the game of football inside and out, and showed that is going to be a force for the giants for at least the next few years. jpp not only makes a difference on passing downs, but he is also our best special teams player….
jpp in, sintim out
by The Blood of Eli on Jan 20, 2011 10:45 AM EST up reply actions
JPP the best ST player?
That is an absurd stretch.
not a stretch at all
Because they realllly suck
All you hear about is the past, the past... the past is the !@#$ing past, this is the present.
THIS IS TEMPORARY! A CHAMPIONSHIP IS PERMANENT
-Michael Strahan
i mean
he is the first one down the field on every single kick off hands down… regardless if he makes the tackle he gets down there and makes the returner change directions
by The Blood of Eli on Jan 20, 2011 3:01 PM EST up reply actions
I can haz Akeem Ayers?
Either get angry, or get the hell out.
by BigBlueIntervention on Jan 19, 2011 2:20 PM EST reply actions
Ayers
is a 4-3 outside linebacker. That’s what UCLA plays and what he has done.
by Ed Valentine on Jan 19, 2011 3:38 PM EST up reply actions
But he wouldn't fit in with what the Giants do
He would get about 300-400 snaps per year like Bulloch did this year
by mclaren_is_the_best on Jan 19, 2011 5:07 PM EST up reply actions
yeah
where is all this 3-4 talk? i want akeem ayers that is my wish for this year’s draft…. last year my wish was sean lee
by The Blood of Eli on Jan 20, 2011 10:47 AM EST up reply actions
His size
In the height and weight categories he looks like a 34 OLB. He played 4-3 in college, but there have been plenty projecting him as the kind of athlete that could play 34 OLB.
That would be really strange
Scouting reports on Ayers clearly state that he is more of a run/pass guy than a pass rusher, in general the OLBs in a 3-4 are pass rushers.
Anythings possible, and i don’t doubt that you read it somewhere, but it would be surprising to me. Pats have a pick ahead of Giants, and when they liked Mayo used the tenth pick on him. But Pats don’t run a typical 3-4
As a UCLA fan
I’d love to see Akeem Ayers in a Giants uniform. The man is a beast and is freakishly athletic. He is kind of a project though, and will still make some questionable (read: boneheaded) plays every now and then. But you can’t deny the man’s athleticism, and he works incredibly hard.
I remember the Boley play
where he lost contain on Vick and Vick scored a TD.
Does that count? I’m guessing no.
"Sometimes you make a mistake and you get hit in the head." - Eli Manning
the only impact boley game i remember
was last year against Atlanta. he was all over the place.
if only we played ATL every week…..
Yes, I am a Giants fan. Now that we got that out of the way....
IMPEACH DOLAN!!!!
I will not - lose! -Jay Z-
too bad we can't trade Sintim on account of his knee injury...
..he’d be useful for a 34 team that isn’t Pitt or Miami.Maybe we can get a 4th or a 5th for him.
I think Dillard will be solid competition for whoever is in the running for the Starting MIKE spot
hopefully JR gets the idea that the guy he competes with is likely to be better.And dare I say BIG and FAST!Ya know a 3 downer who’s athletic,smart and a leader.
I think JR gets it though,judging by his postseason comments about Rolle having to play in the box alot(read between the lines)to cover for our weak LB’s.
Michael Boley
His coming in on the blitz and knock out Romo was pretty impactful. It was a missed block by their fullback but he put one hell of a hit on Romo.
(New here, hi all!)
good call.. that was a huge play
nothing better then single handidly ending the cowboys season.
welcome
by Plaxico Burress on Jan 19, 2011 3:34 PM EST up reply actions
I didn't think Boley did a terrible job
The truth is, we need younger guys in there. Maybe be can get a steal late in the draft?
Why won't god let us beat the Eagles?
i agree Ed
i can live with Goff in the middle, but there needs to be improvement around him.
how’s this for a splash. we go for the big fish in Greenway, and line him up on the strong side, then get what i think will be a bargain basement deal in…..Thomas Howard!
he’s in the doghouse over in Oakland, and did not translate into the 3-4 well at all. he only had 10 tackles in 12 games all year – after having a monster rookie season with 110 total tackles. can he cover in the passing game you ask? well in his sophomore season, he compiled 6! picks and 11 passes defensed. he’s only 27, and from what i hear is lightning quick for a LB(based on his 40 time) he won’t stay in Oak, they see he doesn’t fit there new system, and his asking price won’t be too high coming off this disastrous season. another upside is you can almost say he has 26 year old legs, since he barely played this year. i say bring him in, with Greenway, then draft a LB or two(i leave that up to you draftniks out there – i’m looking at you R44!) and have Howard push Boley for that weak side spot. if he doesn’t beat him out, at least he’ll provide some more depth in the position.
JR, you have your blueprint. i expect results by friday….CBA be damned!
Yes, I am a Giants fan. Now that we got that out of the way....
IMPEACH DOLAN!!!!
I will not - lose! -Jay Z-
I like it!
How did that ex-Raider Morrison ever do in 2010? This board had a lot of chatter about him in past postings.
from what i can tell from his numbers
little to no impact at all. 89 tackles total, and 1 pass defensed….and that’s it. i don’t even remember seeing him on the field when we played the Jags.
Yes, I am a Giants fan. Now that we got that out of the way....
IMPEACH DOLAN!!!!
I will not - lose! -Jay Z-
Howard had a monster season with 110 tackles
Boley had an awful season with 108
I’m thinking the # of tackles isn’t a great indicator
I think
It was only considered a “monster” season because he was a rookie.
But I agree Ed might have been a little hard on Boley. He wasn’t great, but he was decent in coverage and was invisible more often then not which meant that he was doing his job, even if it wasn’t in spectacular fashion.
by Mr. Jamsackson on Jan 20, 2011 12:16 AM EST up reply actions
Unfortunately
we too often place highlight plays as a measure of a good job.
Boley did fine because of what you said above.
Or he didn't, and Howard didn't either
I’m just saying tackles don’t equal good plays
I also like it
but i liked the Adrian Tracy pick last year. If his knee could be fully healed he would help out a lot rushing the passer and in coverage
I like linebackers. I collect 'em. You can't have too many good ones. - Bill Parcells
We need to be aggressive in FA
go get Greenway and another guy for Boley, I think Goff will be ok. This is not the position to target in the draft. The draft we need to focus on the offensive line and RB if we dont get one in FA. None of the 1st round grade linebackers that will be there when the Giants pick will fit what they need. They’ll either be 3-4 guys, or guys who need a year before they’re ready to start. We need starters, not draft picks to groom, I’m tired of taking mid round linebackers and trying to groom them to start, it’s not working, time to go another route. Go get 2 guys in FA that can come in and be impact starters, and it will free them up to select wherever they want in the draft, most importantly offensive line.
by ManningHam and Cheese on Jan 19, 2011 3:01 PM EST reply actions
thats funnny
I think that we’ve tried every method of aquiring LBs. Daft one early (Sintim), Daft in the middle, (Dillard, Goff, Gerris, Kehl) Draft late (Tracy, DeOssie) or sign FAs (Bulluck, Boley, Mitchel, Clark). None have them really worked so what next? Maybe we have to change the guy that evaluates LB talent.
maybe a good call...definitely interesting wilddre!
he also sounds like Bruce Carter who could be healthy enough to regain his potentially top 10 draft status by April if he heals from that ever nasty ACL injury at close to his best form.It can be done.
make it happen shaun!
you must have some connects…you are THE giant after all! hehehe.
Yes, I am a Giants fan. Now that we got that out of the way....
IMPEACH DOLAN!!!!
I will not - lose! -Jay Z-
I wish,bro...
…lets go to our high end possibilities
by Shaunthegiant on Jan 20, 2011 2:29 PM EST up reply actions
Mark Herzlich anyone?
Now that could be a steal!
Definitely can’t see the team quitting and looking a guy like this in the eye!
He may be just rounding back intop form.
Depends on the round
Big risk, if he’s healthy he’s a stud
I feel you Ham and Cheese.
and if we do get Greenway then someone like Carter could be taken and groomed to take over for Boley when he comes all the way back.The dude is sick.
1 UFA,1 pick and a healthy Adrian Tracy could work.
I also think Dillard will be ready to atleast push Goff and that can’t hurt.
We’ll see.
Yes Ed, serviceable
That is the perfect description of our linebackers. We seem to have no defensive playmakers outside of our lineman. Fewell needs playmakers in his system. I’m hoping we’ll get more turnovers out of our safeties and corners next year.
But it is at linebacker where we need to find at least one dominant player that can change the game from the position. Maybe we are all spoiled by the rich tradition of play we’ve had the privilege of watching, but the current group really leaves me yearning for a lot more. Jerry has misfired at linebacker in recent years. Time to turn that around!
Go Giants!
I'm going to resist the urge to blame the FO for all our linebacker issues.
The last two years I think Reese made some band aid corrections that aseemed reasonable at the time. It didn’t work but it might have. I think it is at the top of his list right now, even maybe before the OL. I’m not well versed on the upcoming crop of college linebackers but maybe old “44” could enlighten us.
by giant fan since 57 on Jan 19, 2011 3:18 PM EST reply actions
I agree
As I said at the time, the fact that Mara and Tisch both mentioned linebacking as an area of weakness tells me that the internal front office discussions had LB at the top of the “upgrade for 2011” list. Whether they decide to try FA when/if the CBA gets done or they think they can get one or two in the draft will be one of the big stories of the off season for the Giants.
Go Giants!
We need a huge upgrade at all linebacker spots!
Goff = backup… For the Record Boley did make one memorable play when he knocked Romo out for the season, but other than that I hate his game. Keith Bullock = washed up.
Basically Ed gave our starting Linebackers 2 kiwillies and 1 wet willie that is not going to be good enough going forward; JR better upgrade the linebackers with some guys that can play, Jesus, I swear i started missing Danny Clark
I say we blow up this position and start from scratch. Draft a linebacker and get Chad Greenway in here pronto!
by Late for Dinner on Jan 19, 2011 3:27 PM EST reply actions
let's say you're right about Goff
who do we get to play the middle then? do you wanna bring in a rookie to field the most important position on the defense? i don’t. i don’t think there’s a big MLB FA crop this year either. i could be wrong tho.
i’m not in love with Goff, nor do i think he’s near the top of our list of problems. i wouldn’t be against drafting someone and letting him learn the position. i don’t think Dilliard’s the answer. so i’m not arguing your point, i’m just saying what would you have them do?
Yes, I am a Giants fan. Now that we got that out of the way....
IMPEACH DOLAN!!!!
I will not - lose! -Jay Z-
Our linebacker position has been ignored for way to long so in reality not everything can be done at once `
So we can either draft a MLB and try and sign a guy like Greenway to play OLB. Or draft an OLB and try and sign a guy like Posluszny from the Bills (or however you spell his name).
We are probably stuck with Boley for another season at least.
by Late for Dinner on Jan 19, 2011 4:09 PM EST up reply actions
i forgot about posluszny
it’ll be interesting to see if Fuel pulls for his former mike to JR and crew.
i agree on greenway, and i’d like to take a flier on Thomas Howard too. he had to good a start to his career to be done at 27.
Yes, I am a Giants fan. Now that we got that out of the way....
IMPEACH DOLAN!!!!
I will not - lose! -Jay Z-
Poz always seems to be hurt
And I’m not sure he is an upgrade on Goff
Dude trust me Poz is a football player and does not come off the field
Yeah he got hurt his rookie year and only played 3 games but, he played all 16 the next year 12 the year after that (broke his arm was back in 6 weeks) and 14 last season.
Plus he was one of Perry’s guys on the Bills, not seeing we have to half this guy but we could do far worse.
by Late for Dinner on Jan 20, 2011 9:45 AM EST up reply actions
But Bills have a ridiculously shallow roster
I have no problems with Poz, but I’d rather get one standout LB, than just another OK player or 2.
Goff figured out the run defense, I’d give him a year to figure out the pass defense. Much rather see a guy to pick up what Kiwi did. Big enough to stuff the run, fast enough to rush the QB from the edge. In first 3, when that was happening the defense was very tough. They stonewalled Chris Johnson till the offense killed that game.
Obviously Chad Greenway seems to be the No. 1 Backer out there
I mentioned Pos as a posiblility because he is a big upgrade over Goff. Goff is a backup player, I don’t care if we draft someone or bring a guy in, there is no way Goff should be handed the MLB position we need some competition at that spot.
by Late for Dinner on Jan 20, 2011 11:00 AM EST up reply actions
Dillard is cut already?
Or he isn’t enough competition?
any one know about whether the salary cap will be increased or decreased?
"17-14 is the final, OK? 17-14 fellas. ONE touchdown and we are WORLD CHAMPIONS!! BELIEVE it, and it WILL happen!!"
CBA=TBA
as in “to be announced”.
Until they negotiate the agreement how can anyone know? They are fighting over the % of dollars that the owners get to keep and how to calculate that. So that will determine if it goes up or down. At least that’s my understanding.
Go Giants!
I agree with your evaluation, late for dinner.....
However I’m wary of throwing three rookies into battle without at least some veteran presence. Maybe we could trade for a Pierce type guy and let him school the others.
by giant fan since 57 on Jan 19, 2011 3:34 PM EST reply actions
Whoops, I didn't catch the Chad Greenway mention in you post. Is he available?
by giant fan since 57 on Jan 19, 2011 3:36 PM EST reply actions
I'm pretty sure he is an UFA this year, we should defintily make a run at him.
by Late for Dinner on Jan 19, 2011 4:12 PM EST up reply actions
what makes u think the Vikes will let Greenway go?
They have franchise & transition tags. We have no idea how much money they have under the cap but I doubt they’ll let him walk out the door w/o putting up a fight.
You guys can badger me IF I'm wrong
I still feel Goff is going to be a very good backer in the middle of our D. Dillard will have his chance and I believe Goff’s intelligence will give him the edge.
Sintim got hurt early this year if I remember correctly so how hard can we be on the guy. We all know TC loves veterans on the field so Bulluck got the nod.
Boley is over paid for what he does and should be traded.
yeah I hate Boley too
he is extremely bad at shedding blocks and taking on blockers at the point of attack. he also has a lack of discipline on the field and has screwed us over in run defense in 2009 & ’10, at first I thought it was sheridan but its pretty obvious its boley. he needs to beef up 10-15 pounds and he needs to start using his hands better to shed blocks
It's Boley and Osi together
Neither stout vs the run it’s just too obvious
Kiwi gave the team a totally different look and impact.
I disagree about Reese
I don’t think he has undervalued the linebacker position.
First, with the emphasis on the passing game and the number of nickel and dime packages, LBs are just not as important as they used to be, at least in the 4-3.
Second, he has actually spent a lot of draft choices on LBs:
2010: Dillard (4th round)
Tracy (6)
2009: Sintim (2)
2008: Kehl (4)
Goff (5)
2007: DeOssie (4)
That’s six in four years, and four of those six in rounds 2-4. To me, that’s a significant investment. The problem is that he has gotten very little return so far – a serviceable MLB in Goff and a long snapper in DeOssie. Although it is too early to give up on Dillard and Tracy (and maybe Sintim), I have to wonder if Reese’ fabled ability to evaluate prospects (or free agents) just doesn’t extend to LBs.
Having said all that, I agree that the position has to be upgraded significantly, esp at OLB. It was painful to watch Clay Matthews, knowing that the Giants used to have LBs like that.
Mickey C
Good point
I characterized his history at LB as having “misfired” because he has tried to fill the position. He just hasn’t had much success at it. I’m wondering if it is bad luck, or if he just doesn’t have as good a feel for LB’s as he does at other positions. This off season will tell us a lot about that.
Go Giants!
You just made our point about Reese and his unervalue of the linebacker position
2010: he used a 4th round and a 6th round picks on linebackers, mind you we were coming off AP calling it a career, Danny “Roller Boogie” Clark was our starting OLB along with Boley.
2009 JR uses a 2nd round pick, Sintum is a bust it happens
2008: JR uses a 4th and 5th round pick on linbackers
2007: 4th rounder on bascially a long snapper who played linebacker in college (Ivy league College I might add).
So in the last 5 drafts JR has used 1 high pick on a linebacker and the rest have been late round picks, that to me does not say we have made a significant investment at LB.
by Late for Dinner on Jan 19, 2011 4:21 PM EST up reply actions
I agree that
he hasn’t put as many high draft choices (first three rounds) into LB as he has put into WR, DB, and DL. However, fourth and fifth rounders are not supposed to be chopped liver, the majority of them are expected to turn into useful players, and as I recall the analyses after the drafts, the Giants expected far more from DeOssie & Kehl (and Sintim) than they got. To me, the number of midround picks constitutes a significant investment in the position; the choices, however, were not good.
My concern about his ability to evaluate linebackers also takes into account his free agent signings, who have not done the job we had hoped..
Mickey C
I disagree
The Majority of starters (and by a wide margin) come from the first and second rounds.
If you get starters (not talking about one year starters, I’m talking about cornerstones) that is doing very well.
Reese has undervaled the position because it’snot as importnat as the other positions: The trenches, the secondary, the skilled offensiver players are all more important then linebackers.
you can win without big linebackers you can’t win without good trenches and an offense that scores points..
by EliManCrushing on Jan 19, 2011 9:14 PM EST up reply actions
3-4 to 4-3
The Giants need to stop drafting these players that have never played in a 4-3 (or LB at all) and trying to convert them into 4-3 LBs.
very nice assessment
i cant think of anything i would add or change.
by The Blood of Eli on Jan 19, 2011 3:51 PM EST reply actions
Goff....
Has a lot of room to grow. He’s an intelligent player and he’s a good run stuffer. He does a helluva job shooting through gaps when the defensive line opens up those holes for him to occupy.
He also made some decent coverage plays now and again but he doesn’t have the speed to play coverage which is why I agree with those who say that we need to upgrade the outside linebackers before we start looking at the middle. I think Goff is the least of our worries moving forward. I had high hopes for Boley but he’s simply not very good against the run and his coverage skills are average at best.
More than anything, we need someone to take over Bulluck/Sintim’s side. That is a gaping hole on the defense that Fewell has done his best to scheme his way through using Rolle and Grant and at times it needs to be addressed immediately.
It was less speed than recognition
NFL network showed some footage, he’ll cover one guy and stick with him too long, end up opening the passing lanes over the middle.
If he recognizes better when he has to hand over the coverage I helps a ton
Wow
Bulluck made just 41 tackles
That’s much more than I would have guessed.
All you hear about is the past, the past... the past is the !@#$ing past, this is the present.
THIS IS TEMPORARY! A CHAMPIONSHIP IS PERMANENT
-Michael Strahan
Ha!!...All for gains...
"When I was a boy and I had no sense..I got my pecker caught in an electric fence..Well it curled my hair, tickled my balls and made me shit in my overalls..."
Bring Frank back..or you all can line up and "Kiss my Ass"..This is bullshit..
WAAAY too early to give up on ole man bulluck
youse guys gotta remember he was commin’ off MAJOR knee injuriy (18 month recoop type) befoe that he was a beast for a long, long time!
he’s got a cap friendy contract. invite him to camp and letsee if he’s got anything left. let him compete. if hes got nothing left, then cut him
(btw, i’m biased. watched him play back in his hs days . . . wow. none better on that level at that time!
by NYer in a strange land on Jan 20, 2011 11:32 AM EST up reply actions
HIGH SCHOOL!! i said high school.
local kid. rockland cty, ny. (ya know, just over the Tappan Zee Bridge)
none better @ that time in that area.
by NYer in a strange land on Jan 20, 2011 11:35 AM EST up reply actions
A MLB that can't cover is useless
What good is all that brain supposedly in Goff’s head if he can’t even be on the field for passing downs. He can’t really be your primary play caller and leader of the defense when he is in the game for less snaps than other teams backups. Goff is a “starter” only in the notion that he is in the game for the first snap. He doesn’t play like a starter. The guy is a backup caliber player best used situationally or in a pinch to get you through an injury of a real LB. If you are going to take a guy out for passing downs it should be your SAM not your Mike.
Boley is just a situational player to the flip side as he is useless against the run. We are paying him way too much money to be just a nickel LB, and a bad one at that.
Bulluck/Sintim don’t even count. They aren’t even good enough to be on the field when there is no other choice.
We can’t fix this mess in just the draft. In classic Reese fashion this area of the team has been ignored until it is in complete shambles needing major attention. As I see it you have to give it the same treatment that safety got this year. Pickup two FA LBs (one big name one under the radar) and draft a LB in one of the first three rounds. Ideally we snag Greenway as our big name pickup. I’d move him to Mike where I think he would excel. Then we get a WILL like Rocky McIntosh or I’ve got my eye on Thomas Howard because he’d be attainable, affordable, and looking to prove himself. Then we draft a SLB in the second or third. I really like Colin McCarthy out of Miami. He has played every LB spot so he would give good versatility, but I’m confident he could come in and play the SAM spot on day one. He’s a high effort hard nosed football player that will hammer RBs and can still offer some good skill in coverage.
+1000000000
If we get some guys in here that can actually play the linebacker position, we don’t have to keep our safeties so close to the line of scrimage all the time. Secondly with the D-line we have, some good linebackers would take our D to the next level.
by Late for Dinner on Jan 19, 2011 4:28 PM EST up reply actions
Absolutely..If you factor out the safeties playing close in..then you immediately know..
that our linebackers stink..This crew does not come close to Giant football..not even close..
"When I was a boy and I had no sense..I got my pecker caught in an electric fence..Well it curled my hair, tickled my balls and made me shit in my overalls..."
Bring Frank back..or you all can line up and "Kiss my Ass"..This is bullshit..
Actually the Sam does come out of the game in passing downs.
Our most common nickel package is Goff Boley Grant.
Goff only comes out of the game when they play dime.
by mclaren_is_the_best on Jan 20, 2011 2:55 PM EST up reply actions
No that was our "base" package
Grant was playing LB not DB. He is a DB by the depth chart, but in those plays he is playing the LB position. In the nickel situations it was Boley and Grant playing LB with Ross at nickel corner. I’m going by formation of where guys line up, not the number of guys on the field who happen to be listed as a DB on the depth chart.
To Boleys credit.....
He had at least ONE impact play
I bELIve in the Giants!
Bear Pascoe for president!
& what an impact!
romo will feelthat for the rest of his life when the weather’s not good.
by NYer in a strange land on Jan 20, 2011 11:38 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah..well that and a real good fart doesn't get you in the playoffs
"When I was a boy and I had no sense..I got my pecker caught in an electric fence..Well it curled my hair, tickled my balls and made me shit in my overalls..."
Bring Frank back..or you all can line up and "Kiss my Ass"..This is bullshit..
Impact player needed
I watch that Clay Matthews guy run all over the place. Somtimes he misses, sometimes he falls down, sometimes he gets caught in a crowd, but he is all over the place causing trouble.
As I recall , he did not go all that early in the draft. But I realize that everyone else wants an impact player, also.
How did Rolando McClain pan out? Can’t say I heard much about him.
How about Casey Matthews?
Clay’s lil’ bro. Could get him late – he’s one of those overachiever types.
McClain did…decent. He was banged up, and played a bit a rookie, but he was reasonably well thought of in Raiderland. He’s only going to get better.
11/1/2010
Reese is an ass
Reese is our problem, He let good linebackes go, he says he is going to take the best player????Show us this player, that has made a inpact in the past years, Reese should go and take the rest of his staff with him.
Hakeem Nicks, Mario Manningham, Steve Smith
by EliManCrushing on Jan 19, 2011 9:16 PM EST up reply actions
Kawika Mitchell
Reese made a good signing in 2007 with Kawika mithcell and then tried to replicate that the next few seasons and it hasn’t worked out for sure.
by EliManCrushing on Jan 19, 2011 9:18 PM EST up reply actions
Which supports cranda's analysis
Reese got lucky with Kawika Mitchell. Then he expected he could just keep pulling cast off LBers off the scrap heap each year. It hasn’t worked. Reese gets way too much credit and way too much slack because of the 2007 SB win. The misses have been building and the hits fewer and farther between.
We are fine with Reese
I agree on the linebackers, but the guy has made some pretty good picks since 2007.
by Late for Dinner on Jan 20, 2011 11:05 AM EST up reply actions
Reese does not get too much credit
think of all the starters he has drafted in his short time… his first year being the super bowl year…
aaron ross, terrell thomas, kenny phillips, kevin boss, ahmad bradshaw, steve smith, hakeem nicks, mario maningham, jonathan goff, michael johnson, matt dodge
and then he drafted guys that contribute – jason pierre-paul, travis beckum, jay alford, zak deossie, adam koets, mitch petrus
and if clint sintim, will beatty, linval joseph, phillip dillard can pan out…. man jerry reese has done a wonderful job of bringing in talen…. and who knows what chad jones could have done?
that 2007 draft class is one of the best ive ever seen the giants draft
by The Blood of Eli on Jan 20, 2011 11:40 AM EST up reply actions
Somebody has to start right?
Counting how many guys brought in by JR start on this team is a silly metric, and that applies to trueblue’s post below as well. Guess what JR is the guy who brings players in via draft or FA, so any starter that isn’t a vet left over from EA is “talent” JR found. You have to go farther than are these guys starting on this team because as other players retire or go elsewhere guess what new blood has to be brought in. A body in a spot is no accomplishment. The question is would these guys start elsewhere? Goff, he’d be a backup on most teams. Michael Johnson backup now would be elsewhere as well, ditto for Ross. Dodge wouldn’t even be on most rosters and shouldn’t be on ours. Boss it was just discussed isn’t all that impressive. Bradshaw proved out to not be able to be the number 1 guy. Alford? The guy made very little impact besides one nice sack of Brady. Beckum has been a nothing. 2007 was an above average draft, but 2009 was well below average. 2008 was average, and 2010 is still fresh but not looking spectacular thus far with Joseph and Dillard barely dressing and JPP only playing a bit role
Player Reese drafted that would start for other Teams
2007
Aaron Ross (lots of teams would slot him as their No. 2 CB
Steve Smith
Kevin Boss – Not great but a solid NFL player
Ahmad Bradshaw
2008
Kenny Philips
Terrell Thomas
Mario Maningham- All the Philly fans come on here and brag about Jason Avant, who has half Ham’s production, so yes he would can play and would start on other roster’s
2009
Hakeem Nicks- Baring injury he is in the Pro Bowl with ease.
2010
JPP the guy was pretty darn good for a rookie and definitly could have started for another franchise, considering he has Osi, and Tuck ahead of him he played a ton
As for the rest of the 09 and 2010 draft we will have to wait and see, it’s to early to tell. Point is Reese has warts (aka always trying to find LB’s off the scrap heap) but he is part of the solution not the problem. We are not that far off
by Late for Dinner on Jan 20, 2011 2:34 PM EST up reply actions
You use a metric, because it has no bias, unlike our opinions
When you count up guys that Reese has drafted and whether they are in the NFL or not, as compared to other GMs his standing is high
When you count his picks on the field getting starts or significant playing time, his numbers are better than most GMs
That does not mean that every move he has made has been right, nor that his moves have satisfied all the fans. What it does mean is that if he wasn’t the GM we would probably have a longer list of issues and complaints.
Its startlingly easy to list complaints about a football team, injuries, free agency, the relative difficulty of maintaining a team. If the biggest complaint is that he isn’t drafting pro bowl guys often enough, that’s akin to saying HOF or bust. Because a GM that drafts a pro bowler every year is going to the HOF.
Maybe other GMs move on from their misses?
Your statement of success comes from guys still being in the NFL and still on the team. Perhaps other GMs would have released some of our clingers sooner? Perhaps other GMs have been more successful in FA? How many guys you’ve drafted that you haven’t decided to release is a poor metric. Every team has a full roster, so every GM had to find 52 players somewhere somehow to play on their team. I really don’t care how they found them. The Pats get a bunch out of UDFA, I’m not going to shred them because those guys weren’t drafted. They’re good players. There is one metric that counts, is the team competitive? I don’t care if not one single player makes the pro bowl or is HOF if the team that is assembled is a competitive team. The Giants have not been competitive the past two seasons. We beat up on weak or hurt teams and got beat up on by the good teams. The teams that made the playoffs have better GMs by the only metric that actually means anything.
JPP
KP
TT
Manningham
Hakeem
Loads of teams would kill for 4 quality starters in 3 drafts plus good back ups
All you hear about is the past, the past... the past is the !@#$ing past, this is the present.
THIS IS TEMPORARY! A CHAMPIONSHIP IS PERMANENT
-Michael Strahan
Manningham is effectively a starter
So 4
All you hear about is the past, the past... the past is the !@#$ing past, this is the present.
THIS IS TEMPORARY! A CHAMPIONSHIP IS PERMANENT
-Michael Strahan
No
You are a starter or you aren’t. Ham is not “effectively a starter”, he is a 3rd string wideout, so 3.
Any objective comparison of JR to other GMs put him in the NFLs top tier
As soon as you kill your opinions on players and track, draft picks in the NFL, on the team and starting, the Giants are top tier. It’s especially impressive when you consider that JR hasn’t had a draft spot higher than 15.
He also has no power to force guys onto the field. Many GMs can force the coach to use their picks (SD), some teams let the coach rule draft day, so you get far less disconnect with early picks and playing time. Getting on JR cause TC prefers Vets, and slows down a rooks path to the field, makes no sense.
JR has had more important issues. When he took over the CBs were a shambles. He stuck with CWEB and brought in Ross and TT. TC wouldn’t play CWEB till injuries forced his hand (so much for the myth of coaches figuring it all out in practice). Ross started out great,but the recurrent hammies have effectively reduced him to a 4th CB. JR was prepared for that having already drafted TT.
THe WRs were old and had no depth. They have been totally rehabbed.
The OL was a mess. He cut Pettitgout and has brought in enough guys to make the offense top 10.
The Super Bowl and winning seasons have masked some of the issues that surrounded this roster in 2007
+1000
Reese overall has done a great job, however he needs to address our linebackers it’s that bad.
by Late for Dinner on Jan 20, 2011 11:08 AM EST up reply actions
I will have to disagree with this
if anything, it happens all over the NFL.
Reese is intelligent and adapts very well.
We will return to LB prominence soon.
Please remember as well that we had a very good defense under a very good, now HC, in Spags but a good LB corp…..nothing spectacular.
Just like a bad trade or draft can set you back a few years, so can an inept DC.
If you think Sheridan did not f%^k up our defense for more than just the one year, you are wrong.
We showed marked improvements this year on defense and will get even better next year.
Seriously?
You blame the ghost of Sheridan? Sheridan had no impact on our team this year. It’s not like players had been brought in by his request or we somehow tried to build from his scheme. I’d add this defense showed the same kind of quit at the end of this season. Shouldn’t the end of the season be the farthest from any effect of a previous DC if you are going to lay out the claim that there should be any effect?
Defense finished 5th in yards allowed
17th in points (but the offenses passion for turnovers warps that number)
So they must stink and need a total clean out. That JR how dare he assemble such an awful defense.
AHH. sarcasm.
unfortunately, it dosen’t translate well into print.
by NYer in a strange land on Jan 20, 2011 11:42 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah, i see plenty of issues on this team, but ...
I think many are way over reacting to this season. Face it injuries and mishap have put this team into rebuilding mode since the end of 2008, it stinks, but that’s the fact.
Ask other teams fans what their records are like during rebuilding and how easy it is for rebuilding to take 5 years or more. So I can get a little sarcastic.
80% of the fans out there expect a Sper Bowl for their team every year, only about 5% end up happy.
We shouldn't need to be "rebuilding" at this point
and Green Bay has made the injury excuse ring empty.
i say trade our 1 & 3 rd picks for an Elite young LB like P. Willis
I seen Mcclain on one ESPN highlight during the season… He made a hell of a tackle! I was big on weatherspoon in last yrs draft and he has not did much in ALT, obviously JPP ended up working out for us, if ayers is still available in the second round it would definitely be worth the pick, and thumps up on getting Greenway too
He won't be
Ayers is 6-4 nearly 260 pounds and he might run a top 40 yard dash for linebackers at the combine.
He might not even make it to the Giants in the first round (the Lions is the vogue choice right now) but hes’ versatile and I think the Patriots would really consider him at 17 too
by EliManCrushing on Jan 19, 2011 9:17 PM EST up reply actions
I don't know about that
Pats defense was silly slow at LB
Without a lead they couldn’t cheat and camouflage it
And who knows LBs better than BB?
Spoon got hurt
Before that he was lighting it up.
Barrett Ruud anyone?
Can’t say I watch a lot of Bucs games, but his numbers seem to indicate that he’s always around the action. And he’s just 27, so it’s not like he’d be a “band-aid” like Bulluck. I think he’d flourish in Fewell’s defense, based on what I’ve heard of him.
"The good teams don't come in and say 'could have'. They get it done. Alright? It's that simple."
Ruud
He is is not strong at the point of attack, tends to try to jump around blockers rather than take them on. As a result many of his tackles end up being several yards down the field. He is good in coverage though. Basically the Boley of MLBs.
by G-FANinFL on Jan 20, 2011 11:31 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
I guess they could Have drafted Curtis Lofton instead of Kenny Phillips
Otherwise they would have needed to trade up for a guy like Clay Matthews.
And what if they traded up for"no range McClain"?
Too ez to pot shot. Reese has remedied a weak roster since 2007.
this is an easy question to answer
before our dumb GM drafted them
who do we get PHILIP DULLARD.
Goff and Boley OK
Maybe because of DCs but drafted LBs have breen mostly awful. Sintim draft was a headscratcher not another slow 3-4 tweener.
Sintim isn't slow
But he has looked confused,strange for a guy out of UVA. i think his entire rookie season with Wild Bill was a washout.
I hope he comes back healthy and has a shot to play with Fewell again.
Reese learned
from his mistakes and possibly compensation for the departure and subsequent promotion of Sheridan
See above comment I made, that Sheridan move was more costly than just one year. Reese tried to cover up the mistake and made a few picks that in hindsight were not what we expect.
Now he has a real DC in the war room on draft day and, from his Buffalo days, a very good talent reader.
He now has a team that will pay for FA’s as needed.
Fewell’s contributions in the war room will assist Reese in getting what we need in better fashion than last few years.
Also, lets remember that we were drafting quite low for a year or two there.
Greenway In - Bulluck and LB -2 (Sintim/Blackburn/Wilkinson) Out
Def. need to go after Greenway or a more productive ( a leader in the middle type of LB)
I do have high hopes on both Dillard and Tracy.
I agreed with the observation about trying turn a 3-4 LB into a 4-3 why not simplified things a draft an LB with 4-3 experience…or we must well start teaching our kids to fit a square peg in a round peg by handing them a hammer to do it!
I tried to turn my horse into a unicorn by dying it purple and attaching wings to its back and it didnt work! The horse was not going to start flying anytime soon bro!
The linebackers lack production and miss tackles. The Giants defenses have always been known for their linebackers: In addition to Lawrence Taylor and Harry Carson on their 1986 Super Bowl team, the Giants had Carl Banks, Pepper Johnson, and Gary Reasons, and even had great backup linebackers in Bryon Hunt and Andy Headen (who probably could have been a starter on another team). The Giants haven’t drafted a linebacker in the first round in 27 years (Carl Banks in 1984); Clint Sintim was drafted in the second round in 2009, but the last time the Giants drafted a linebacker that high was Kanavis McGhee in 1991. Over the past 16 years the Giants haven’t produced a single quality linebacker through the draft. They have repeatedly attempted to convert college defensive ends to the SAM position (Reggie Torbor and Mathias Kiwanuka). The Giants could have drafted but passed on linebackers such as DeMeco Ryans in 2006 and Jon Beason in 2007.
We did draft a fellow named Jessee Armstead but he was a late rounder
by Late for Dinner on Jan 20, 2011 2:38 PM EST up reply actions
Wasn't that when Madonna was hip
I kid, but it would be nice for Tracy to come on next season and explode
the great giants defenses of 2007 and 2008 had terrible linebackers
didn’t seem to hurt them.
Personally I think that LB’s are almost useless and we’d be much better off if we can improve the secondary and DL of our defense.
by mclaren_is_the_best on Jan 20, 2011 7:20 PM EST up reply actions
Pierce and Mitchell were far better than our current backers
We have added high picks and big dollar free agents at both the DL and the secondary since 2007, while ignoring the LB unit. The defense has gotten worse, so I’d say the theory of just improving the line and secondary has panned out false.
Not sure how the defense has gotten worse
at least statistically it was better in 2008 and 2010 than it was in 2007.
No doubt we could use some speed and youth at teh LBz, but the way they’re doing it actually has panned out.
Difference is when they were good at any point in time since 2007, the offense kept the defense off the field.
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
Stats are nice and all
but the 2007 defense stood its ground against the more prolific offenses. We won that SB because we held the Pats offense down. This year we racked up some gaudy stats against some low hanging fruit. The defense looked good against bad teams and teams that might have been good if they weren’t playing their 2nd or 3rd string QB. Good teams with their starting QB humiliated this defense. The most complete game this defense played was against Houston, but the Texans ended up sub 500 so just how impressive is that?
2008 stood up against the prolific offsenses too
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
Fewer teams than ever in college play 4-3
So if you just look there you shrink the talent pool
3-4 teams will gladly draft a top 4-3 MLB figuring it only gets easier in 3-4.
Kiwi wasnt drafted as a LB, he found his way there as an attempt to put the best guys on the field. He was playing very well there before he got hurt. Intact if he stays healthy this conversation might be totally different
Gerris
can definitely get a WW for his (lack of) contributions on defense. But do not underestimate his value on STs. He was the guy making the big hits & tackles.
Side note to self: Its a shame that I’m trying to defend this guy for his STs play on the worst STs in the league.
The spot obviously isn't terrible
but its probably the most upgradable spot on the defense. Even Boley when he was at his best (one of the top LBZez in the NFL actuallly) he Keith Brooking and Demorrio Williams.
They need speed. Goff probably would’ve been more than solid either 10 years ago, or if he had at least another Boley at his side. He’s very good in run support and when he doesn’t have to cover the entire middle of the field, he’s not bad either.
Speed is the name of the game. It probably just takes one elite athlete on the outside and the group will be drastically improved.
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
I'm constantly surprised at the playing speed of Brian Urhlacher.
He moves like a rocket. Of course his intuition, knowledge, and supporting cast make him look better. Maybe Goff will start to look quicker as he gets smarter and more experienced as we improve his companion LB’s.
by giant fan since 57 on Jan 21, 2011 5:31 AM EST reply actions
Maybe we should look at the LB coach
We take on these projects to convert from 3-4 to 4-3. Well, our LB coach is a 3-4 guy for his whole career. He has an impressive record with Michigan as a position coach and DC with a lot of sack numbers and he worked with Jets and Ravens but this is all 3-4 stuff. Maybe there’s something there. I’m just fishing.
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