2009 Draft: Hey, Jerry, There Are No Mulligans In The NFL
by Ed Valentine on Sep 8, 2010 7:00 AM EDT
in New York Giants News
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PrintIn baseball, going 1-for-9 consistently (a .111 average) will bring a quick end to your big-league aspirations.
In basketball, shoot 1-for-9 from the field and you probably can't compete with a high school team.
In football, go 1-for-9 in the draft very often and your team probably ends up like the Detroit Lions or St. Louis Rams. Meaning, it doesn't win very often.
Unfortunately, it seems Giants GM Jerry Reese might just have done that in the 2009 NFL Draft. If you have been reading BBV for a while, you know I am a huge Reese booster. Right now, though, it's tough to defend the 2009 draft class.
After 2009 fourth-round pick Andre Brown was waived and claimed by the Denver Broncos, Ernie Palladino summarized the situation this way:
Nine picks, one star, three gone entirely, one on the practice squad for a second year, one bust in the making, one still waiting for a chance on the playing field, and two role players. Not a great 2009 scorecard.
I know you guys probably can't read Ernie's piece since it requires a subscription, but he is right on target here.
- No. 1 pick Hakeem Nicks is a star in the making.
- No. 2 picks Will Beatty and Clint Sintim are disappointing thus far. The Giants tried to hand Beatty the left tackle job this summer, and he could not take it. He might still develop, but not a good sign that he could not win a job. Sintim, according to Ernie "has bust written all over him." He just doesn't seem, at this point, to show the instincts for what the Giants are asking him to do. It's fair to wonder if he ever will, or if those who thought he would hve fit better in a 3-4 were correct.
- No. 3 picks Ramses Barden and Travis Beckum have each barely been able to get on the field. The guess here is that neither one ever becomes a central figure in the Giants offense.
- No, 4 pick Brown is gone.
- No. 5 pick Rhett Bomar might as well be. Pretty obvious that he will never, at least by choice, play a meaningful down for the Giants.
- Nos. 6 & 7 picks DeAndre Wright and Stoney Woodson did not make it out of camp a year ago.
You know, I take a mulligan every so often when I play golf. Unfortunately, you get no mulligans in the NFL. Mistakes in the draft, especially in the top half of the draft, can haunt teams for a long time. I am not writing Beatty, Sintim, Barden and Beckum off as busts at this point, but they need to step up and justify Reese's faith. The Giants will suffer if they don't.
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I think...
the entire 2009 Draft was a bit on the weak side. Reese did take some chances, and some did not pan out. But anytime you can come out of a draft with a superstar, I wouldnt say it was a bad draft.
Not giving up on Sintim, Beatty and Barden yet.
Still way too early for this.
3 years. Full Seasons. If they’re busts they will be then, but not now. It does happen with other teams so I guess its not just a NY impatience type thing….Keith Bulluck was a flat out “bust” according to those in Tennessee his first TWO seasons, but then played 8 HOF caliber ones.
Corey Webster was a ""bust""" until oh….about the 2007 playoffs. Bramdon Jacobs was nothing more then a short yardage back for his first couple years. Steve Smith was just a slot WR his first 2 seasons. Justin Tuck was an unknown his fist 2 seasons.
Granted, after Nicks while pretty much all of these guys do actually have a spot that would be wide open for them (except for Bomar of course), but it takes time.
Lets let their SECOND season play out as well. Maybe Bullcuk gets hurt and Sintim Wally Pipp’s him? Beatty doesn’t look like the starter just yet, but until the starters are announced he still could be.
Barden and Beckum the more it moves toward Sunday it looks like they’ll be active for that game.
Not writing them off
And yes, it takes three years to make a final judgment. My only point was that the early returns don’t look good — not what we have come to expect from JR. Let’s hope these guys end up making Reese look good.
I was more refering to Ernie P's points
I know you weren’t Ed.
He also calls Nicks a “star”. He looks like it, but I’d rather him actually become a star first before he’s called that.
But yea, so far doesn’t look promising.
Early Returns Have No Value
When it comes to football. None of those guys, except for Nicks were brought in to be immediate contributors. The Giants have a good team in place. When you have a good team in place you don’t require immediate dividends from your draft picks. These guys are one year removed from playing college football and none of them got significant playing time last year.
The only way to get better is by gaining reps, you gain reps with experience. I think the fans have been spoiled by the early success that SOME rookies have. However, there’s no need for Barden, Beckum or Brown to be a big part of our offense right now. We’ve got stars ahead of them. Sintim is going to take time to develop. Nicks is doing what he came here to do.
by DaWriter on Sep 8, 2010 8:48 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Come on
Picks in the second round shouldn’t be considered starters but Beatty and Sintim have both been disappointing.
Beatty not so much as you see the improvement but Sintim looks like a bust as they do not trust him and it’s perceived he doesn’t have the football IQ
Beckum and Barden I’m willing to wait on for another year but Sintim is really disappointing.
We really need Nicks this year to show that breakout quality and REPRESENT his hometown of Charlotte, NC. Our offense is really effective except when we get a against a team willing to stack the line and press – we need Nicks to break that press and make them pay more often as he did against the Eagles last year.
Bhomar – 5th rounder so I’m not expecting anything but progress by next year as he should be the backup.
Please get Phil Simms in the Hall of Fame
Agree and Disagree
IMO 2nd round picks are projected as starters within 3 years.. A team is comprised of 22 starters. It’s not unrealistic to replace 2 or 3 starters on a yearly basis. A 10% turnover of starters is reasonable. Of course some position will turnover fast than others.
I do agree with giving draft picks at least 3 years before labeling them as a bust. Barden is/was raw talent. Three years is reasonable. Beckum will be a bust. He simply doesn’t fit in the Giants scheme. Perhaps they were planning on creating some packages for Beckum. However, as I mentioned in another post, Tom doesn’t seem to deviate from what makes him comfortable.
"I don't do many endorsements. I'd rather get doused by Gatorade than bust my butt selling it." - Bill Parcells
I never saw CWEB as a bust?
When you have a hall of fame back (JMO) starting, Jacob’s was lucky to get what he got. I don’t care if anyone else knew who Tuck was, the Giants knew what they had, hence the 30mil $ contract extension two years after being drafted, and that’s with Stray and Osi as the starting bookends, making less if I’m not mistaken.
Is it really going to take Bulluck getting hurt for Sintim to show something, just show us something?
With that said, both points are valid, the early signs are not looking good, but we should let the second year play out before coming to any conclusions.
Webster was nickel CB at best his first 2 years
and its really not like the Giants had 2 All-Pro’s at CB either, he had many chances and failed at starting.
I agree on Jacobs, but still…took him till his 3rd year to do something. No one knew he could be any more then what he was and the RB’s were a big ? when Barber retired.
Tuck got his extension during right before or during the playoffs I think, so that including him doing work for basically all of his 3rd year.
And while Sintim should be winning out that OLB spot, its also a testament to Goff being better then Sintim at this point, so like JR said the best LB’s will start and they will. I
Free
nobody really disagrees with you in being patient but you can’t be patient with every 1st and 2nd round pick that comes through. You need to make picks in the draft that can step up early or it’s always a waiting game.
To me – the 3rd round and below are the rounds to make a stab at someone special but those 2nd rounders need to come in after the first year and start to push for time. …and lets be honest, the OLB position is one of the weakest spots on the team so Sintim should’ve pushed for time.
Also, while I like Goff, I think it’s disappointing that he’s the starter because he’ll be absolutely exposed in the passing game. To me, it’s settling and while I’m happy Coughlin restored the running game of the Big Blue he should’ve also restored the dominance that the Giants were known for at the LB position.
Please get Phil Simms in the Hall of Fame
Tuck got the extension after the SB win IIRC
by mclaren_is_the_best on Sep 8, 2010 8:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Not sure why that matters?
I think what FB was trying to say is that in certain situation it takes more than a year or two…or three to realize someones true potential.
I really think Giants fans have about a year and change tolerance w/ draft picks….after that you are on the back burner
but when you look at Jacobs, Webster, and Tuck, they are prime example of guys who have dealt with either Injuries (Tuck), had better players in front of them (Tuck and Jacobs), or just didn’t fit well w/ the scheme (Cweb).
who know….what if spags never came to NY and we never put Cweb in man coverage….he could very well be a huge bust. Probably even somewhere else. But a new coach, new scheme and he was one of the better corners in the NFL in ’08.
It’s kinda crazy how small one’s window really is. I mean you have Victor Cruz going Undrafted who becomes a star over night….Kurt Warner is bagging groceries and becomes a SB MVP. In football, people make mistakes just like life….all it takes is a bad break, a bad scheme, an injury, and your career could vanish….it doesn’t necessarily mean you can’t play ball….
"If I'm curt, then I apologize" - Newman
I usually agree with you Free.....
But I must take issue with a few of your observations here. Brandon Jacobs was a short yardage beast in his first two seasons, and clearly showed the potential to be more than that. He was being kept off the field by Tiki, who, say what you want to say about him, was putting up well over 2000 yards from scrimmage in his last several seasons. Steve Smith performed very well as a rookie. The Giants don’t win that Super Bowl without he and Boss splitting up Shockey’s role and being more productive put together than Shockey would have been.
Sintim was just being asked to hold down the SAM position on run downs and it doesn’t appear he can even do that. As Ed said, I don’t know if it is because he’s going to be a bust, or if he’s not being used the right way. I have written before that I’m always skeptical of taking personnel that is successful in the 3-4 and transitioning those players into the 4-3. Particularly the outside linebackers. Both Sintim and Kehl were edge rushing linebackers in college. Playing outside LB in the 4-3 is a totally different position. When you draft these guys, you really have no idea if they are going to be able to play in space.
One thing I do know is that our linebackers look just as bad against the pass as they did last year. In all of these preseason games, the opposing QB drops back and throws passes over the middle and no one is there. Nobody. I have no idea where they go. Do they dig a hole in the turf and hide in it?
Whether it is Sintim, Bulluck, Goff, or whoever, our linebackers had better start getting themselves into the action in the passing game or the Giants are going nowhere.
Crossroads
It has to be said that the four of Beatty, Sintim, Barden and Beckum are at the crossroads of their NFL careers.
If they do not see major playing time in 2010 or contribute when called for in limited duty then it will be hard to see how any of them other than Beatty will have a long NFL career with any team, let alone with the Giants.
No matter how well Nicks does if the above four all bust it will be a grade D or worse for the 2009 draft.
Mind you when you look at the 2009 draft in the 2nd to 4th rounds not many players stand out – so maybe JR did the best he could with the talent available. I think someone posted on another site that 7 or 8 of the first 100 picks in 2009 are already with different teams.
Just imagine how we would react if we had traded our 2010 first round pick in 2009 to draft someone who we then trade for a 7th round pick one year later.
by G Fan in England on Sep 8, 2010 7:26 AM EDT reply actions
agreed...
…the picks from rounds 2-3 could all still pan out; my guess is 2-3 of them will turn into quality NFL players. To use your baseball analogy, if Reese went 3 for 9, he would be close to the league league in average — sustain that over the length of his career, and we would be talking about hall of fame numbers. Alas, this is not baseball though.
Also…
I am not writing Beatty, Sintim, Barden and Beckum off as busts at this point, but they need to step up and justify Reese’s faith.
So it goes without saying that, when given the opportunity to perform, these guys need to step up and make big plays?
by Step up and make big plays on Sep 8, 2010 7:28 AM EDT reply actions
I'm not excited by that draft class yet, nor was I by the JPP first rounder...
in this year’s draft. But somewhere along the line, one also as to give Reese a bit of compensating credit for the undrafted free agent signings. It looks like Johnson will be back again, and while Cruz and Calhoun may or may not amount to anything, these were all players that nobody drafted and if they do contribute, they’re a counterbalance for some of the drafted players that don’t make it.
was having the same sentiments
for Bear Pascoe. Thought he was gonna be a PS snipe by JR.
Alas, maybe next year?
Uh hello, planes? It's blimps. You win.
This article is nuts and I'm surprised to see Ed cosign it
- Nicks is a star in the making
- Beatty is in his second year, and by the way, playing behind a top tier tackle in Diehl. let’s not forget that.
- Sintim is really struggling, but I just think he’s out of position and should be on the line.
- Barden and Beckum have struggled…with injuries, not skill sets, at least from what I’ve read
- Brown is gone, but I don’t think we looked at him as the future. I think we looked at him more like “best case scenario he takes off, but if he doesn’t, no big deal”
- Bomar will be on the roster next year, i’m convinced of that. He was almost there this year, and just about everyone on this site thought he played well enough to be the back up next year.
- I hated the last two picks anyway, I thought there were busts the second they were picked
It’s unfair to compare someone’s draft record to someones batting avg. and shooting pct..batting avg and shooting pct? I don’t see the connection. Compare him to other GMs draft record that’s a more apropriate barometer. Let’s also keep in mind that A) the giants won the superbowl the year before that draft and B) The giants were 3/4 of the season into another superbowl run when Plax shot himself. Think about that for a second. This team was set already. I’m sure JR had plans on other players to draft, then Plax is gone, and the whole board is erased and they have to start from scratch. They would have never gone after Nicks and Barden, I’m sure they had other players in mind, like a top notch LB. then they have to settle on Sintim because they need a WR. So let’s keep all of that in mind. Also keep in mind that it’s really tough to crack the line-up on SB quality teams. How many draft picks have cracked the starting line-up on the last 2 superbowl winners? Give me that number and tell me if those teams are playing like the Detroit Lions.
I just took a quick look
there are only 4 Pitt Steeler draft picks on the squad from their 2009 draft.
That is partly due to the strength of the 2010 draft
IIRC, other than an OT on IR and a 7th round DT, everyone of their picks are on the 53.
How do I break it to the cat that since he has been declawed, the rabbit he sees in our backyard would kick his sorry butt?
by Cold_Old_Steelers_Fan on Sep 8, 2010 9:36 AM EDT up reply actions
ok
Kraig Urbik, Rd 2 (79) not on your team, not on IR, not on PS
Joe Burnett Rd 5 (168) NOYT, NOIR, NOPS
Ra’Shon Harris Rd 6 (205) NOYT, NOIR, NOPS
A.Q. Shipley Rd 7 (226) NOYT, NOIR, NOPS
You Have 4 players on your 53 and 1 on your PS
that is the 2009 draft you are looking at
We think the team was trying to slip Urbik onto the PS but failed. I think Urbik, Burnett and Harris were expendable, partly because of the strength of the 2010 class. Burnett, who was projecting to be a nickleback, was beat out by Butler who looks to have the potential to be a shutdown corner. We ended up carrying a lot of lbs and wr, partly due to ST needs and partly because of the quality of some of the latter round picks.
It can be tough for rookies to beat out vets when a team has a lot of depth.
How do I break it to the cat that since he has been declawed, the rabbit he sees in our backyard would kick his sorry butt?
by Cold_Old_Steelers_Fan on Sep 8, 2010 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions
thats what i said bro
2009 draft. I’m not knocking the steelers, I’m actually using them as the measuring point of a good drafting franchise.
yeah
I have to admit these same questions have been asked about our 2009 draft.
How do I break it to the cat that since he has been declawed, the rabbit he sees in our backyard would kick his sorry butt?
by Cold_Old_Steelers_Fan on Sep 8, 2010 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions
know if you said your Offensive Co-ordinator
I might believe you. I have no idea whose GM is better.
How do I break it to the cat that since he has been declawed, the rabbit he sees in our backyard would kick his sorry butt?
by Cold_Old_Steelers_Fan on Sep 9, 2010 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions
opps that should have read
“now if you said….”
How do I break it to the cat that since he has been declawed, the rabbit he sees in our backyard would kick his sorry butt?
by Cold_Old_Steelers_Fan on Sep 9, 2010 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions
No question
That many of these guys could still turn out to be good players for the Giants. And I am a huge booster of JR’s. The real point is that it’s surprising in a lot of ways that the Giants have not gotten more from this class. A couple of points, though.
- I would strongly disagree that Diehl is a ‘top tier’ left tackle. He’s adequate, Pro Bowl (as a replacement) or not. In all honesty, I’d rather see Beatty there right now. He’s just as good, in my mind, with more upside. Sintim is too small to play the line. Besides, how would he get on the field. I think it’s just taking him a long time to learn the position, he just doesn’t look ‘natural’ yet.
-
As for Ernie’s article, it’s a little strong. But, EP has been doing this for 30 years and I respect his opinion.
I hear you Ed
but…how many left tackles in the NFC are better than Diehl? I’d guess not too many. And I’d rather see Beatty there too, but only when he’s ready. as far as Sintim’s size…He’s an inch taller and about 5-10 lbs lighter than Dwight Freeney. So I think he could work at DE. And Bernie Madoff was in finance for like 40+ yrs, but I don’t think i’d trust his opinion too much…lol.
But seriously Ed, in your opinion, How many stars and starters should a team draft per year to consider it a success?
I consider
Rounds 1 and 2 should be starters by the end of the second season.
Rounds 3 and 4 Solid backups and role players
Rounds 5 to 7 – your special teamers.
by G Fan in England on Sep 8, 2010 8:57 AM EDT up reply actions
That is the blueprint
of what you should be looking for with each draft pick.
So out of 7 picks I would expect two starters, some backups and some special teamers.
Now if your roster is good enough some players will not make it as they are not as good as players already on the squad.
by G Fan in England on Sep 8, 2010 9:16 AM EDT up reply actions
I think the blue print is right
But talent evaluation is such an iffy thing. Something like one third of all first rounders either wash out entirely or fail to become regular players. Even the best organizations are going to have a pretty high percentage of failures over several years of drafting. And as Mauclis points out, strength of team is a factor. Bad teams keep a lot of their draft picks because they don’t have much talent to begin with
by Tucker Fredrickson on Sep 8, 2010 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions
G fans blueprint is accurate
BUT it’s a bit too generic
Each team has more realistic expectations based on current roster, draft strength and draft position.
I’ve seen more detailed breakdowns from Gil Brandt and Dr Z, but not worth quibbling, cause G’s on target.
I agree
with G Fan. Of course there is always exceptions. Most 1st round draft picks are expected to start within the first season. In recent years that’s also true with QBs.
IMO if a top 2 maybe top 3, draft pick isn’t starting by the 2nd season then they’re basically career backups/role players. Players either get it or they don’t. Good players seem to get a good grasp of pro football within the first season. Those players will make an impact.
"I don't do many endorsements. I'd rather get doused by Gatorade than bust my butt selling it." - Bill Parcells
Great point
on the whole draft strategy being re-set with Plax gone down. The draft would have looked completely different. Not that that would constitute an excuse but your other points are good too.
by BigBlueDeadHead on Sep 8, 2010 9:17 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
who knows who they would've drafted
but I know for a fact that Clint Sintim was very high on their draft list, like they may have taken him over Nicks.
If they didn’t """have to""" draft Nicks, they could’ve drafted Sintim in round one.
Plax was the ultimate game changer
You are dead on with that assessment. I have always argued that Jacobs was effective because of Plaxico being on the field. Look Jacobs and Ward had 1000 yards each in 2008 and it wasn’t because they were both pro-bowl RBs…without Plax = No need to double him so opponents stack 8 in the box and Jacobs is a non factor. Its why Bradshaw is more effective than Jacobs in the system because of his elusiveness. Even though our receivers had an amazing year last year not one demanded a double team. If Nicks has the breakout year that we need and he has an impact just by being on the field, regardless of whether he gets the ball, we will enjoy a dominant running game again.
"Osi said he's going to London to see the Eiffel Tower."
With the passing game last year...
do you thinks teams will think twice about putting 8 in the box, even though we dont have a superstar WR? I think the running game benifits this year from the passing game last year.
I don't think we'll see a lot of double coverage on any WR.
We will however see schemes change to make sure that we don’t get those underneath passes for the 3rd down conversions to Steve Smith or the short yard passes to Manningham.
Hopefully, this will open up the field for Nicks to take advantage of by going deep.
by Well-Rounded Cube on Sep 8, 2010 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions
Exactly...
The difference will be whether or not Nicks emerges as threat that can not be ignored. As of right now…I agree completely with Well-Rounded. Our WRs are definitely all talented…definitely. It starts there…if we can successfully pick apart defenses underneath and show a legit “big-play threat” from the passing game then I would predict both Jacobs and Bradshaw having career years.
"Osi said he's going to London to see the Eiffel Tower."
Jacobs and Ward had 1000 yards each
for one reason. OFFENSIVE LINE. At the time it was widely considered the Giants had the best o-line in football.
"I don't do many endorsements. I'd rather get doused by Gatorade than bust my butt selling it." - Bill Parcells
Can't it be both?
I think each idea lends credence to why the Giants weren’t up to snuff last year in the running game. Without a healthy O-Line to pull or push when needed, running backs playing hurt, extra defender stacked in the box, the Giants really were quite screwed when trying to run the ball.
I’m of the school of thought that Bradshaw is getting the better end of it because he is an elusive back that when the hole closes or a play breaks down, he uses his speed to switch things up.
by Well-Rounded Cube on Sep 8, 2010 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions
I love it....
When Jacobs gets the ball I expect to see someone get crushed. When Bradshaw gets the ball I expect to see a highlight clip on Gameday Final!
Meet me at 21st and Prime!!
"Osi said he's going to London to see the Eiffel Tower."
with that logic you could
expect that anybody would have had 1000 yrds behind that line. How did we run the ball that year after Plax forgot the safety?
"Osi said he's going to London to see the Eiffel Tower."
not a big Reese fan
Though admittedly not a big fan of Jerry Reese’s, I thought he was a step up from his predecessor, whom I did not think was worth spit ( and pls don’t hand me that Eli trade crap either or the fact that Eli won a SB and Rivers did not, etc. Still not worth two high picks plus the Rivers/Manning trade).
But I do think it’s a bit early to bristle at the ‘09 class as yet. We all know that Hicks could be a Pro Bowler and might turn out to be the best of that extraordinary receiver group in 2009. Beatty may be disappointing on the left side, but put him back on the right as McKensie slows and he will be fine- maybe. And, as mentioned, let’s give Barden and Beckham one more year. The Giants may yet regret dropping A. Brown- time will tell here as well.
Free Agent walk-ons don’t matter. That’s the luck of the draw. Cruz could have gone to Jets or Eagles as well. He probably tossed a coin. No GM should take credit for that.
So, again, let’s not over-react to that group of players yet.
I agree with just about everything you said
Except for AB2. He was at best going to be our #3 RB this year. He might turn out to be pretty good. But look around the league. Just about every team has at least 2 RBs who could start for their team and many others. Those guys are really just a dime a dozen. Sorry to keep using that phrase, but it really fits. Next draft there’ll be another 10-20 starter quality RBs coming into the league.
Lets not forget too
that JR did not exactly PLAN on Andre Brown rupturing his achilles. Had he played last season as a rookie, who knows where he’d be on the depth chart now?
That’s more a result of extenuating circumstances, much like how the progression of Chad Jones this year cannot be put on JR’s shoulders
Uh hello, planes? It's blimps. You win.
Jets didnt make him an offer....
Rex Ryan didnt even know who Cruz was, I think you can give a GM credit for finding free agent rookies.
Fact -only one team offered Cruz a chance
He was very candid about that in an interview that I think you did Ed.
But it could have been one of CJs links
You're mad
Accorsi built this team (the Supe Bowl champ team anyway – and also the nucleus of this current team). Eli did pan out so I will say that. He got Plax. Osi. Jacobs. The O-Line. Did he draft Stra (prob G. Young). Landed Coughlin? (Giants org wanted him for a long time). No matter. You’re mad and should be more grateful. We are lucky to have had the quality teams we’ve had over the past 10 yrs and Accorsi is hugely to thank for that.
by BigBlueDeadHead on Sep 8, 2010 9:24 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
+1
I can’t believe the Accorsi and Reese bashing by some people. If you haven’t read ‘The GM’, you’re doing yourself a disservice as a Giants fan.
http://www.amazon.com/GM-Inside-Story-Dream-Nightmares/dp/0307394131
In Reese I Trust.
by Give it to 44. on Sep 8, 2010 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions
+100000000
nice post
"I don't do many endorsements. I'd rather get doused by Gatorade than bust my butt selling it." - Bill Parcells
seriously?
“Free Agent walk-ons don’t matter. That’s the luck of the draw. Cruz could have gone to Jets or Eagles as well. "
That’s like saying “singles through the middle don’t matter – a different shortstop might have positioned himself differently and gotten to that”
That’s absurd. Reese absolutely should get credit for those guys – smart GM’s sign good undrafted free agents. Bad GM’s sign roster fodder.
2009 Did Not Happen
We have been good at the UDFA game
but often that work is done by someone in the personnel dept. other than the GM. The GM is focusing on the bigger deals like FA moves and draft picks. Lower lever personnel men and small school scouts are the ones who are finding the UDFA talent and lobbying for them. We’ve obviously got either a person or persons in that role who know what they are doing. The only credit I give Reese on those UDFA grabs is being smart enough to listen to his guys who have proven themselves as good talent finders.
but that ultimately comes back on the GM
I mean, the President isn’t involved in the day to day minutia of DHS or the DOD or any of the other agencies, but if something really bad (or good) happens, he gets the blame (or the credit), not the Secretaries.
2009 Did Not Happen
GM has his fingerprints on everything
When you are getting paid those $, you don’t farm out the decisions to subordinates, unless you prefer to not be GM.
Ross is excellent and every good GM knows how to find good subordinates, but the GM takes the blame and gets the credit, and they make the decisions. why do you think he looks so much older?
and don't forget
Reese was a scout himself, so he knows, he may focused on the big FA but he has an eye as scout, so that counts.
exactly
Reese evaluated all those UDFA’s, he kept tabs on them and made sure they ended up with offers at worst.
I should probably
have phrased this post more in the way of a question. More along the lines of ‘are you ready to declare the ’09 draft class a bad one?’ It is too early to give up on these guys, you’d just like to have more than one guy from that group on the field consistently at this point.
Eagles
They get called draft masters for all the extra picks etc but if you look at their 2009 picks only 3 of 8 are left.
Given the first two will be impact players.
So maybe it was a bad draft class and JR decided that even the safe bets were not safe bets so go for players who could have a big upside (ie the four stated players) as the so called safe picks could have flamed out anyway.
In terms of the half full/half empty glass I am in the “Hey, I ordered a cheeseburger” camp!
by G Fan in England on Sep 8, 2010 8:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Of course
the Eagles had 13 picks this year and 10 of them made the squad, and they traded one for another 2010 pick that made the squad. The Eagles sometimes get too cute and carried away with their draft strategy, but they are annoyingly consistent about putting a competitive team on the field and the draft is the backbone of their team.
I have to say I did enjoy seeing them cut Quintin Demps and Macho Harris after listening to the Philly faithful brag about what great draft choices those two were.
by Tucker Fredrickson on Sep 8, 2010 9:00 AM EDT up reply actions
Even 3 for 8 vs 1 for 9
wouldn’t you rather a 38% success rate than 11%?
Don't jump
Yes The Eagles have Maclin and McCoy but the other player is now a backup.
We have Nicks and the chance that five others can become something good for the team.
Let’s look back after season end to see if the 1 out of 9 is still valid.
by G Fan in England on Sep 8, 2010 9:12 AM EDT up reply actions
it won't be
1 for 9.
Beatty will eventually make contributions to the team. Bomar might not stick with the Giants but I think he has a career in the league as a backup. There’s still a chance Barden can become a decent NFL player.
"I don't do many endorsements. I'd rather get doused by Gatorade than bust my butt selling it." - Bill Parcells
I wouldnt say it was a bad job by Reese even if only Nicks pans out
The situation was, we THOUGHT our only and biggest holes on a “Superbowl contending” team were LB and WR. Nicks was a no brainer and Barden was looked at as a steal, Sintim….. even though i do not like attempting to change 3-4 backers into 4-3 backers we needed a Linebacker and he looked like a beast in College. Hated the beckum pick but whatever. All that said i think Reese did what any other GM would have done. But next year i hope we get our LB of the future with our first pick or a stud Olineman
No you did it just right
If you are a journalist, and i say that you are, you must take an aggressive stance
You can’t just be gentle. Even on a fan site!
It’s good to have your cage rattled at least once a week.
I'd say its not an incredible draft class
but to compare to that 2007 class that’s called great…would it have been so great if all the rookies were as injured as the 2009 class was its rookie year?
Maybe if all these guys were healthy (including Nicks), it’d be a different story their rookie year?
Also if they were all healthy their rookie year, then what if there weren’t any injuries to get them into action?
Coulda swore last year Smith, HAM and Hixon were the starting 3 WR. If Hixon doesn’t get hurt, does Nicks show off his star potential? Maybe..maybe not. Coughlin likes his vets, so its not out of the question.
Sintim has always worried me
Around here that’s not a majority opinion I think. I just see that transition as significant, from where he played in college and what the Giants want him to do.
Maybe he’ll have some success in situational play this season? Goal line, blitz packages… plenty of opportunities still for Clint to get on the field and show something.
Sintim has worried me too,
however, he got most of his learnins’ from Danny Clark, who isn’t exactly a perennial All-Pro.
I would like to give Sintim one more year under the tutelage of Keith Bulluck, arguably the best player at Sintim’s position this decade. Bulluck can hopefully impart his wisdom and show Sintim the ropes.
Just give one more year to Sintim…
Uh hello, planes? It's blimps. You win.
Bulluck is perfect to teach him
Bulluck knows exactly what its like to struggle ‘switching positions’ when making the college to pro jump as well, and of course struggling his first season (remains to be seen if Sintim struggles this year tho).
Too early
It’s way too early to judge the 2009 draft class. Nicks looks like a good player. I think Beatty will eventually be a starter - linemen, especially not elite type guys often take 3 or 4 years to develop. Sintim is beginning to look like he’s not going to make it. Jury’s definitely still out on Beckum and Barden. Beckum was always a head scratcher, as he doesn’t really fit the Giants’ system and they don’t seem to have made any plans to alter the offense to fit him in. Barden is still a big question mark - but they knew he was a project. I do think Reese could have used one or both of those picks for something other than receivers, but the guys he picked may still become players. Brown got a serious injury — can’t blame Reese for that. Bomar in the fifth - I don’t have a problem with drafting a developmental quarterback, although I do question the timing of that pick.. Rounds six and seven were bad choices - there were definitely better players available in those rounds.
So, I doubt it wll go down as Reese’s finest draft but if Beatty eventually becomes a starter and onre of the third rounder’s finds a role, I’d say it was an ok draft.
by Tucker Fredrickson on Sep 8, 2010 8:53 AM EDT reply actions
Even if we went 1-9
IT was one draft. Too bad so sad, Jerry has pulled a lot of talent since he’s been in charge. Take the total ratio of success vs failed picks and then a better verdict should arise
"they try to do what he do, and been where he's been, but they get folded in two.....he's the dude"
good point
one i was gonna make myself. take every draft as a comparison to 3 games in baseball. you may go 1-9 during a three game stretch, and 6-9 the next. now, if you just single out that one stretch of games, you can paint any player to be bad. but if you balance it out over the long term, that player is on a 7-18 stretch, which is lights out. And that’s how i think the Mara’s and Tisch’s are grading JR’s performance – the total picture, not the one blotch in the painting. Add to that his success in free agency, and i’d say this is the sky falling argument at best.
besides, it takes 3 years to grade a draft. end of discussion.
IMPEACH DOLAN!!!!
Even the best batters
will have a 1 for nine streak
Nicks could potentially be a home run. I think Beatty showed enough in preseason that we will see him get significant playing time this year, and if any injuries hit the line, we will see Beatty start.
I also think there is a solid shot that Bomar is THE backup next year
Not sure how all those cross outs got in there
by Tucker Fredrickson on Sep 8, 2010 8:53 AM EDT reply actions
It's the single dash
for some reason that causes the crossouts. I even forgot that today. It’s a software bug.
Ah, thanks
I’ll be careful of that in the future
by Tucker Fredrickson on Sep 8, 2010 9:02 AM EDT up reply actions
Re: Andre Brown
I am very disappointed that the Giants let Brown go. I realize he was injured and the Giants had to make difficult roster decisions as they paired down to 53 players. But, to just let Brown walk and hope that he would make it through waivers was a bad decision. Obviously the NFL needs to adjust their rules regarding IR and PUP lists. But, that is a discussion for another day. Are you telling me the Giants could not have gone through the first game with Brown as a scratch? I know the Giants are trying to improve the special teams and field a more competitive team in general, but I think rolling the dice with Brown was counter-productive to that goal.
I'm assuming that after watching him through the preseason
they just don’t feel he’s really going to recover from the injury enough to be a full time contributor. At least I hope that was the logic and that they didn’t let him go just because he had turf toe and might not be available for a couple of weeks.
by Tucker Fredrickson on Sep 8, 2010 9:02 AM EDT up reply actions
The
Giants tried to get him to the PS and failed.
If they thought someone would claim him off waivers they would have kept him in the 53.
They made a misjudgement that’s all.
by G Fan in England on Sep 8, 2010 9:18 AM EDT up reply actions
I don't know man
I just think the guy was expendable, look at the guy the just put on the practice squad from LSU…he looks at least as good as Brown.
Charles Scott
was drafted by the Eagles as an RB.
The only problem was he could not get beyond the LOS and could not catch the ball.
They moved him to FB and he could not block.
They traded him to the Cardinals who cut him.
Scott is not as good as Brown. The Giants tried to be clever and it backfired on them.
by G Fan in England on Sep 8, 2010 9:33 AM EDT up reply actions
The eagles don't know how to use a power back
which is what Scott is. He’s not going to be a west coast recieving HB like the eagles want. It was a bad fit from the start.
Clever
Setting the roster is always a risk. There are always going to be 3-4 guys you hope to get back, and you aren’t every going to get them all. Brown was a risk and I know the Giants wanted him on the PS. But, it didn’t happen. That’s how it goes sometimes.
Should done it with Ware I think
I know, I am on a rampage but GoingNoWare is more of a risk in my opinion. Skills but not durable.
by UnknownJintsFan on Sep 8, 2010 9:44 AM EDT up reply actions
Couldn't
Too many games played to go to the PS.
AB2 made a great recovery from injury
But he wasn’t the same. Lacked explosion. He may yet get healthier and better, but right now he was a maybe.
Just hope that Ware doesn’t have another head injury and be done.
can we stop calling him AB2 now????
I personally never thought he did anything to earn that nickname, getting cut just proves that point.
earn what nickname?
it’s not like we’re calling him AB the great. AB2 = his initials, and the fact that there already was an AB on the team. let’s face it, were lazy as Americans. who wants to write andre brown every time?
besides, i’m the real AB1….
IMPEACH DOLAN!!!!
I hate America
for devolving from a culture where we used to bestow awesome nicknames like “The Splendid Splinter” and “The Yankee Clipper” to one where our idea of a nickname is a guys initials, or if we’re really “clever,” his first initial and the first syllable of his last name.
2009 Did Not Happen
lol....
AB2 now = “the Bucking Bronco”?….you could also drop the first “B” and add an “F” if you are feeling so inclined
"If I'm curt, then I apologize" - Newman
nah, its only 50% of the nicknames now
the problem is everybody wants a nickname and there aren’t enough.
Rip Hamilton, “Sticks” Robinson, Kevin “the big ticket” Garnett, The Black Mamba to name a few in basketball
Football doesn’t really have too many nicknames. Ladanian Tomlinson was only annointed “L.T” to save space in box scores.
Football is more of a team game. The fact that players are helmeted takes away from their personality. Thats why units get nicknamed (Earth, Wind, and Fire) or defenses (steel curtain). Its a team identity rather than individuals.
You still get the “A.D.” Adrian Peterson, the “A-Train” alstott, Megatron (for calvin johnson), and Revis Island.
I've never heard of "Sticks" Robinson
or heard anyone call KG “The Big Ticket” (KG, sadly, is his most common moniker). And I don’t think The Black Mamba counts, since Kobe gave himself that nickname, which as George Costanza found out, is not allowed.
2009 Did Not Happen
i don't think that's true
he led the team in preseason rushing yardage, at least up until that final game. what more did they want him to do? he couldn’t return kicks – but that was never part of his game. he tried, but failed.
i still disagree with that cut.
IMPEACH DOLAN!!!!
....
The Broncos don’t seem worried about Brown’s injury and seem to be satisfied to wait another week for him to heal. Why couldn’t the Giants be as patient? The Giants still could have fielded a complete special teams squad with Brown on the bench.
maybe because the Giants have a better roster than the Broncos?
and don’t have enough room for him?
I mean, that’s just a silly thing to say. If the Jets cut a young, injured but possibly promising cornerback b/c with Revis coming back they just don’t have enough room for him, and then he signs with a team with a crappy secondary, does that mean the Jets are stupid? No, it means they’re stacked at cornerback.
2009 Did Not Happen
I wouldn't call us stacked at runningback
by mclaren_is_the_best on Sep 8, 2010 8:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Are they gonna cut Jacobs or Bradshaw?
No. It comes down to Ware, Gartrell, and Brown. The Giants determined that Brown was the least likely of these to help the team. I don’t see the problem with that.
2009 Did Not Happen
Agreed
While there might be questions about Brown’s health, they kept GoingNoWare (GNW). He is never healthy and Brown was running with authority, much more than GNW. His ST team play was not good but can be learned. Better to have a decent 3rd than one with “talent” that never plays. Time will tell but betting we are better off is not one I would make at this time. I doubt GNW will play in half of the games.
by UnknownJintsFan on Sep 8, 2010 9:22 AM EDT up reply actions
I don't think
that Brown is as good as Bradshaw was in 08, and Bradshaw didn’t get many carries…so what could we really have expected out of him this year?
What I meant was
He will not be healthy. If you saw my comments on Bo Jackson, you know what potential vs health means. Ware has a modicum of skills, is not durable.
by UnknownJintsFan on Sep 8, 2010 9:42 AM EDT up reply actions
Ernie's right to have questions
and so are you Ed. I’ve been pointing these issues out and people have been going off at me as well. Quite simply Reese is given far too much credit for 2007, and everyone is willing to ignore all the mistakes since then because they attribute that SB to him. His FA moves have been very suspect, the 2009 draft is looking very bad, and the 2010 draft doesn’t give me much faith. Even guys he was originally praised for in 2007 are not panning out now. Alford is off the team and Michael Johnson everyone here is calling a bum. Those were two of his supposed steals of 2007. Beyond just making selections of players who didn’t turn out his distribution of picks amongst positions to field a balanced team has been suspect as well. We currently find ourselves very thin at CB, very weak at LB, and with big questions at OL. All things anyone with their eyes open could see coming, but Reese got caught up elsewhere drafting a project at a spot we don’t need and bringing in 3 FA safeties and drafting another because that was a problem last year. Just like reciever was seen as a problem in 2009 so Reese went overkill there and hurt the team by doing so.
Also
entering the 2009 season he signs 2 FA defensive linemen then the next season uses his two top draft picks on defensive linemen.
To date the FA signings haven’t panned out and his #1 draft pick is a project with potential. Not a very good recent track record.
The 2007 was a brilliant draft but the roster had more holes in it than it does now. Yet Jerry continues to ignore serious needs through the draft.
"I don't do many endorsements. I'd rather get doused by Gatorade than bust my butt selling it." - Bill Parcells
Linebacker
we covered this topic last week. We haven’t utilized a #1 pick on a LB since LT. Prior to drafting Sintim last season with a #2, we haven’t used a second round pick on a LB dating back to Pepper in 1986.
"I don't do many endorsements. I'd rather get doused by Gatorade than bust my butt selling it." - Bill Parcells
Our Linebacking corpse
has been average for a decade.
"I don't do many endorsements. I'd rather get doused by Gatorade than bust my butt selling it." - Bill Parcells
There was nobody available
look at the 2008 draft. look at the 2009 draft. look at the 2010 draft.
Not many good 4-3 linebackers have been drafted lately.
by mclaren_is_the_best on Sep 8, 2010 9:09 PM EDT up reply actions
I recall that topic
and the bottom line then and now is the need didn’t call for a 1st rd LB the last couple years…07 we had Kiwi, AP, Mitchell…who all played really well. 08 safety was the biggest need. 09 it was WR and 10 it was BPA…also, earlier in this topic I covered the LB’s that everyone wants but was not avail when our pick came. So really, the giants have done all they can to address the issue
We are not very thin at CB
We have 2 very very good cornerbacks, 1 cornerback that is very injury prone but talented and a guy that is a perfect fit to be a nickleback.
Reese is not given too much credit for the 2007, it was a great draft, and the following draft was good as well.
Look at the Vikings to see what a team that is thin at CB looks like.
by mclaren_is_the_best on Sep 8, 2010 9:06 PM EDT up reply actions
The Broncos are desperate for a running back
We’ll see how he pans out
by Tucker Fredrickson on Sep 8, 2010 9:03 AM EDT reply actions
Worst post of the year
Hakeem Nicks = the next Michael Irvin!
Beatty, Sintim, Beckum not dead yet!
by BigBlueDeadHead on Sep 8, 2010 9:05 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
(and Barden also not yet dead).
by BigBlueDeadHead on Sep 8, 2010 9:07 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Most optimistic post of the year
Hakeem Nicks = the next Michael Irvin!
Didn't say they were dead
Just agreed w/Ernie that you would hope to be getting more entering the second season. I still have high hopes for a lot of these guys. But, hey, even Reese said in the off-season you expect the guys you draft in the 2nd round to play. Neither one of the guys he took in the ‘09 2nd round are playing, so that’s not good.
Sintim s/b the poster boy for picking a need instead of BPA
The Giants obviously needed help at LB, and with two 2nd round picks, the Giants went ahead and took him, even though he was clearly a guy who needed to be taught how to play the position. They would have been better off picking the best player available, than picking for need.
By the way, I’m thinking that part of the problem with the 2009 draft was that the extra picks seemed to make the team make multiple “project” picks. We had two guys (Sintim and Beckum) who had experience that didn’t fit with where the Giants needed them to play. They took three guys (Beatty, Barden, Bomar) from schools that made it seem like they would need a lot of work to get up to NFL speed. That’s FIVE projects. If they didn’t have the extra picks, one would think they would have taken fewer chances.
This year, it seems like they only took one “project”, although they did it with their first pick. The worst part about this year’s draft is that two of them got hurt and are gone for the season before it ever started. (That was a big hit to the special teams as well.)
Projects
That is an issue I have with Reese he is big on projects. Sintim was more a project pick than a need pick to me. If you are going to make a need pick you grab a guy who actually plays the position you need, not some project to convert.
but
I think when you have a good team as the giants do, you can take chances with projects. If the GMen were 1-15, then you go after sure thing 1st-2nd yr starters.
I wouldn't venture that our roster is solid enough
to be playing around with that many projects. We have plenty of issues that could use solidifying before we get into that.
you're right
but I should have also added that I don’t think there were very many sure things out there…nor was there a glaring must get at all cost weakness on the team either.
but
when you have a severe need at LB you don’t draft a project. They had an aging Pierce that was exposed as losing a step and incapable of covering a RB out of the backfield. Plus, while he was a great team leader, he was an average LB.
I have no problem with last season’s #1. We also had a big need at WR especially after the Plax debacle. But I have a major problem with using our top 2 picks on DL, We knew Pierce was retiring. We also knew we had major question marks with Sintim.
"I don't do many endorsements. I'd rather get doused by Gatorade than bust my butt selling it." - Bill Parcells
but there weren't any "sure thing" LBs available
plus, the bottom line is JR felt our corps were as good as any guys who were still out there. i.e. I think I prefer Goff over weatherspoon today…don’t you?
No
I’d take Spoon over Goff in a heartbeat. Word out of Atlanta is he is tearing it up.
if you can possibly get two starters out of a draft
then you had a good draft. Beatty has disappointed because the expectations placed on him early. It takes LT a while to catch up to NFL speed and dealing with physical freaks every week at Defensive End. He did a pretty good job filling in at RT last year so I’m not ready to jump off of the cliff yet.
Beatty wasn’t a top 10 pick. He was a project pick. He’s shown enough for us to feel good about the direction he’s going.
Barden still has the excuse of depth limiting his opportunity to shine. Even if he is just a 4th wide receiver guy we can exploit height mismatches from time to time thats fine for a 3rd round pick. Look at all of the WR busts in the first and second round, if Barden sticks then its fine.
Im not optimistic about the other guys though. I dont think we need another TE threat for passing. Boss is good and any other TE’s need to be of the blocking variety.
I wish we’d spend a early pick on a Linebacker. We keep grabbing smart fundamental guys but they end up only being special teams/depth guys.
People should be afraid of Kenny Phillips and Corey Webster. People should be afraid of most of our DE’s. Nobody is afraid of any of our linebackers.
but who?
who should we have picked up instead…and I haven’t heard any raving reviews about Ro McClain either. They’re not calling him a bust over at the raiders fan page, but they’re not calling him Mike Singletary part 2 either.
im just speaking in general
like over the last 4 drafts
Big time linebackers
Aaron Curry, Brian Cushing, Clay Matthews, Rey Maualuga, Keith Rivers, Jerod Mayo, Curtis Lofton, Patrick Willis, Lawrence Timmons, Jon Beason, Paul Posluszny, etc
I’m not saying this as a criticism of Reece’s draft board. I generally have liked the talent’s we’ve picked for a long time now. Its just constantly drafting 3rd-4th-5th round linebackers and expecting them to be legitimate starters isn’t really working out for us. Having one young All-Pro level player would go a long way to solidify that unit.
don't forget
Don’t forget ( not Reese’s draft, but his recommendations) the insane pick of Kiwanuka over Ryans in the ’06 draft.
How many
of those LB’s were available to us when it was our turn to pick?
Who would we not have (KP or Nicks) if we had drafted LB instead.
by G Fan in England on Sep 8, 2010 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions
im speaking in hypotheticals
as in we would be a significantly better team if we had a guy that teams gameplan for in our linebacking corps.
I love everyone we draft and couldn’t complain about the talent we’ve brought in at RB, DL, DB, QB, WR, and OL.
I just think the philosophy since Lavar Arrington had his career ending injury is to grab smart, fundamentally solid linebackers in a value setting in the middle rounds rather than take a risk on the “stud physical freak” linebackers that have been available in the past. I hope for this upcoming draft we get a significant talent there rather than form a patchwork linebacking corps every year with special team and solid backup level players.
Our defense generates it's pass rush from the DL
3-4 teams use guys lime Sintim to rush from LB. 3-4 teams will always value those guys more than we do, and as with Sintim, the more physical LBs out of college aren’t always a fit.
So some of these guys might struggle like Sintim in our D.
i understand the difference between a 4-3 and a 3-4
I don’t think our scheme should predicate itself on qb pressure from linebackers. I just threw some names out there with players that were talented enough to possibly convert to our scheme.
If we get more physically talented linebackers we’d be able to throw them on TE’s and RB’s more often in man coverage and have the speed to play a better zone D without sacrificing strength and size that a nickel or dime package calls for.
Blitzing linebackers is important to disrupt the elite qb’s of the league. Against the other 20 or so QB’s we need to force pressure with only our D-line and use the linebackers against the run/ in coverage. If we stop big runs and passes it would create a dominant defense. Most teams aren’t built to put up 3 or more long sustained 8+ play drives per game. This starts with winning first down. If we have decent LB support in the run (along with our bigger DT’s) we will win 1st down.
wow great choices
here’s the problem, only 3 of them were chosen after we made our first pick…so we never had an opportunity to draft them. And of the three that we did have an option to take, We chose Nicks and Ross instead. So who would you have rather had? Our Star in the making receiver and Starting Corner on our SB team or LB. By the way, at that time, we had a solid AP and K. Mitchell on the team and Kiwi playing a solid LB as well.
but who is understood
but again, it’s a position we’ve ignored for 25 years.
"I don't do many endorsements. I'd rather get doused by Gatorade than bust my butt selling it." - Bill Parcells
well you tell me
who did we have the opportunity to draft that we passed up that has shown themselves to be All-Pro quality LBs?
can't answer that
without research. However, it doesn’t explain as an organization it’s a position that we’ve completely ignored for 25 years.
"I don't do many endorsements. I'd rather get doused by Gatorade than bust my butt selling it." - Bill Parcells
They talked about Beatty getting a shot
And he didn’t shine in practice, but then in games they moved him around like a Chinese Checker.
JMO – Beatty at LT looked very solid, at least as good as Diehl, and with more quickness. If they gave him a real shot he might just rise to it.
Coach could have put Diehl at RT, and let Beatty stick with what he was practicing, and long term, Diehl could be the RT.
does Diehl have the strength to take on
SDE’s?
He has the feet to deal with WDE’s but i dont know if he could go against power rushers every week
Diehl
has played RT before so no reason why he cannot go back there.
by G Fan in England on Sep 8, 2010 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions
Diehl is very strong
He can handle almost any bull rush, but speed rushers get him off balance and then he loses his power.
He is a good LT, but he could be a very good RT or G.
I would argue the exact opposite
He is strong, but he doesnt have quick feet to take in speead rushers.
yeah, you're right
I’m not settled in to the NFL season yet. Forgot his strengths and weaknesses.
Sintim is a disappointment
You can’t draft a guy like that and then expect a polished change of position.
Reese and TC need to get on the same page. If you draft a Sintim you must put him in games and let him learn. They must see something in Sintim, Kehl, Goff
would you take a season without a playoff shot
for the sake of development?
I would try to get him and other players on the field for situations
But it brings me to another point!
Some coaches play rookies to get their youthful exuberance and aggression
Ours doesn’t. You have to be poised to get on the field here. He won’t play a vet if the rookie is clearly better, but he’ll favor a vet if he isn’t sure.
Maybe one day in practice it clicks for Sintim, UVA, he’s a bright guy, so let’s at least wait and see if he can get on the field some this year
sintim
is our starting outside guy right now…. who is to say he wont play well this season? we will know sunday
by The Blood of Eli on Sep 8, 2010 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm not even sure they have announced starters at LB
But it certainly looks like
Boley, Goff, Bulluck
But that could change in a hurry.
the thing with Sintim is he was hurt in his rookie year
most of the year. So going from a college 3-4 (base D at least) to the pros, not practicing hurts you.
Now his 2nd year, he’s got another new system that’s completely different for the LB’s (one that usually has smaller, rangy LBs then him in it).
But Coughlin has said numerous times he’s one of the main ones evaluating draft picks, so there’s he’s in on it with Reese with the picks, give or take some disagreements.
Reckon I see things a little differently
My thought is that no player is a bust until no one wants him. If Brown stars at Denver, then JR was right in my mind to pick him. If he just sticks in Denver as a good solid back then JR was right in his initial thinking. I think judging the success of a GM is far more involved than just looking at who stays on the team. There are other dynamics at work from injuries to changes in coaches and their decisions along with the changing maturity level of the player to make such a simple judgement based on “batting average”.
disagree
If a player has talent but our team cant scheme with him then its just as bad as picking a bad player.
for example, picking a guy like Brandon Spikes to play MLB here would be disastrous because he doesn’t have any speed. Put him in a 3-4 where he’ll be able to focus on run support or a very smaller zone in coverage and he might be a pro-bowl player.
Situation is just as important as talent.
by B-rod24 on Sep 8, 2010 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
agree with the disagree
i agree with b-rod…. its all about fitting in with the scheme you are drafted into…. if jamarcus russell comes back and starts and plays well with another franchise does this mean that the raiders made a good pick?
by The Blood of Eli on Sep 8, 2010 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions
Well I'm happier
than a pig in the mud and sunshine that JR didn’t pick him.
Thats sort of my point
The situation at the time of draft is set, but later can dramatically change. We now have Fewell with a different scheme of attack. If the coaches and scheme and injuries and all the myriad of other possibles never changed then drafting for the future would be far easier and batting averages would go up. My other point is that if a player stays in the league, then the GM, at least, was able to identify a talented player.
i think its partly true.
Our situation is different now and we need to begin drafting players that are “Fewell guys”
But a successful draft is drafting players who can use their talent here. I’m speaking in generalities not necessarily speaking about drafting sintim or beckum.
It doesn’t make me feel better if we draft a player who succeeds somewhere else. I mean I’m happy when our draftees succeed no matter where they end up but I dont think it improves our draft grade if they don’t stick here.
Thanks B-rod
I’ll settle for partly true since I only know partly what I’m talking about.
Since we're talking hypotheticals
maybe we should give JR a +1 for not picking Spikes.
what's wrong with Spikes?
Isn’t he starting at NE? I thought that Merriweather and Spikes would have been nice Giant additions.
Spikes wouldn't fit in our defense
He’s a solid player but people would pick on him in coverage in a 4-3. He’s unbelievably slow and got out ran by a FB in one of the preseason games. In a 3-4 he can be used as somewhat of a stand up defensive tackle. Teams don’t want to run at him.
+1
That is how it looks to me. Plus he plays next to Mayo, a top 10 pick ?
just curious...
what MLBs in the league would be able to cover Witten, Celek, Cooley step for step in coverage? Good pass catching TE’s are a designed mismatch and very hard to cover
none really
you want OLB’s for that.
MLB’s play on fullbacks, larger runningbacks, and cover the short middle of the field in zone.
"for example, picking a guy like Brandon Spikes to play MLB here would be disastrous because he doesn’t have any speed. "
Im just confused on your point
with only 3 linebackers
coverage area’s in zone are larger. He also wouldn’t be able to play at all in nickle sets. Playing Man we would generally put a OLB on a TE.
MLB’s cover one of the backs in Man.
In a 3-4 Spikes is essentially a DT that stands up 3 feet behind the line. He’s phenomenal in run support but needs to be hidden in pass support. Mayo is athletic enough to cover his slowness in passing settings.
Pierce
didnt have speed, he seemed to fit our system for a few good years. Its easy to say that Spikes would of never worked for us, because we will never know, because he isnt on our team.
I dont get the Spikes hating, if he suceeds in NE, well then its clearly not him, its the system and the other LBs make him better. The man has no chance in some peoples eyes here, he could end up being a Hall of Famer, and some people will find a way to discredit what he has done. give the guy a chance to play in the NFL
its all about system
if we played in a 3-3-5 defense we would want good tackling safety’s who could play a lot in run support.
if we played in a cover-2 base defense we would want safety’s who could play a large portion of the field in coverage.
The giants use Lean, quick defensive ends to get pressure on the quarterback but may be a little undersized to effectively play the run for an entire season. We lucked out getting Tuck who is both a stong heavy player capable of playing SDE and quick enough to be a dominant pass rusher.
jerry reese spoiled us
you are not going to get the 2007 draft every year….. ahmad bradshaw, aaron ross, kevin boss, michael johnson, zak deossie, jay alford, steve smith….. all those guys have seen enormous amounts of playing time and starting time…. that is just unheard of
and then to follow up with kenny phillips, mario manningham and terrell thomas the next year?
i give him a pass with that draft
by The Blood of Eli on Sep 8, 2010 10:04 AM EDT reply actions
hakeem nicks
will do fine by me…. i still give sintim and beckum a chance as well because both are going to see the field a lot this year… what if they turn into studs? reese is a genius again
by The Blood of Eli on Sep 8, 2010 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Aaron Ross has been awful- from Day One
And now he’s been hurt for 2 straight seasons.
woah woah
awful? i dont know about awful… what he is not is a starting cb… he is a playmaking guy who should only be in on passing downs
by The Blood of Eli on Sep 8, 2010 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, but he was a #1 pick- that's a waste.
Plus he was never strong in cover- Thomas showed how it should be done halfway through his own rookie year in ‘08, and blossomed in ’09. Plus Ross was too old when he was drafted (he’s 28 now). (That’s just me being mean, doesn’t count for anything.
Ross was an injury risk, and it was rumored that Revis was the guy they wanted
Perhaps an example of Reese not being aggressive enough to get the guy he wanted
But every time you move up, you don’t know if you are giving up an Andre Woodson or a Bradshaw or a Boss or a DeAndre Wright(?)
So there is risk. At the time the team needed to get younger, trading picks hard to do.
he was a legit starting corner when healthy
though i dont know how much that had to do with our pass rush that year.
lets not forget
aaron ross made one of the biggest plays against the cowboys in the playoffs in 07…. my man dislocated his shoulder bringing down marion barber one on one on the outside all by himself on a 3rd or 4th down play…. if marion scores we lose
by The Blood of Eli on Sep 8, 2010 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions
first thing I thought of
You play to win the game!
by Simms-McConkey on Sep 8, 2010 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions
Ross?
We don’t win a Super Bowl without Aaron Ross.
Maybe 2009, but Ross was excellent his early career.
Goff could also turn out to be a JR gem....
it’s a big “if”….but lets be honest he was labeled a bust by man Giants fan…or do draft picks that late get labeled as busts??
either way it seem like you got a year and change with the fan base, after that you are banished to obscurity.
"If I'm curt, then I apologize" - Newman
goff
is poised to have a big year…. making jerrys 2008 class that much better
by The Blood of Eli on Sep 8, 2010 10:12 AM EDT reply actions
Alford
just signed with the Raiders
reunited with Waufle
You can see a lot just by observing-Yogi Berra
I'm willing to be patient
Offensive lineman are notoriously slow developers – if Beatty isn’t playing by the end of next year, I’d be worried, but honestly I have full confidence that the Giants coaches will turn him into a starter. He’d probably be starting already for a lot of teams, the Giants just have a solid group of lineman (and I have confidence that if/when one of them goes down, Beatty will do just fine).
Barden was drafted as a project, and again, it’s not necessarily his fault that the Giants receiving corps took such a huge step forward last year, limiting his chances to see any real action. I still think there’s some potential there, but even if he never makes it, I think Reese knew there was a significant risk of that when he took him. High risk/high reward type of guy.
The later picks don’t bother me a ton, either – you’re lucky if your 5th-7th round picks ever make the roster. The only pick that really bothers me, and it bothered me then, was Sintim. I was clamoring for Rey Maualuga, who was a playmaker in college and only fell b/c of stupid combine stuff. In retrospect, I’m glad Reese took Nicks in the first, but I wish he could have moved up a few spots in the second to take Maualuga instead of Sintim – Maualuga is (predictably) turning into a very good linebacker. Sintim will be lucky to see much field time this year.
2009 Did Not Happen
I've seen stats that the 4th round is a crap shoot too
We are just spoiled getting guys that can compete
Maybe we could trade Sintim to a 4-3 team that is converting to a 3-4?
For a good OLB/MLB?
How about Lofa Totupu
by mclaren_is_the_best on Sep 8, 2010 9:28 PM EDT up reply actions
One other thing
I’m not sure that just saying “x percentage of players didn’t make the team, therefore the GM is doing a bad job.”
Let’s pretend you could quantify talent (ala Madden), and the Lions drafted 7 guys who were in the 65-75 range. The Giants, in the same draft, take 7 guys in the 69-81 range. The Giants had the better draft, right? I mean, they took the best player (the 81 guy), and the Lions took worse players overall. But, when roster cuts come, the Giants have to cut 4 of their 7, because their roster has a bunch of guys with ratings in the 80’s and 90’s. The Lions, on the other hand, keep all 7 of their players, because their roster is filled with guys in the 70’s. The Lions have a better percentage of guys making the team, but they didn’t have a better draft, they just have a worse roster that needs more help.
2009 Did Not Happen
I think it's WAAAYYYY to early to tell
Nicks looks like a good pick for sure. Beatty has undeniably looked good at times, but is still inconsistent. He did come from Connecticut so it’s not like he was going against top competition every week. I still think he will be a starting LT.
Beckum was hurt most of last year. He is now the 2nd TE, lets give him a chance to contribute. Also Barden was from Cal Polly, he needs time to adjust. Lets see if he can make a contribution this year.
For every stone cold gem like Bradshaw and Boss, you are going to have a clunker. It’s the nature of the business.
+1
essentially what I was trying to say below. Bottom line how many bench guys do we have that could start for other franchises…quite a bit, I’d say.
In Reese I Trust.
by Give it to 44. on Sep 8, 2010 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions
And don't forget draft spot
If Lions draft early, they have a better chance to address need so they have an even better chance to get keepers
I'd argue that the waiving of Brown and Alford....
means the GM is doing a good job. Reese’s objective is to get as many good players to compete for roster spots, every year. The Giants are deep at many positions, that the fallout is usually quality draft picks have to be cut. It’ll continue to happen if Reese drafts well. Brown and Alford are quality players, that we are upset about. Other franchises are cutting losers, and looking to the Giants for our ‘quality guys’ unfortunately being waived. Reese’s job is to increase the talent pool through draft, FA, and unsigned talent. He’s done a great job so far.
Ernie’s article is way too early. I like the progress of the 09 class, and think this is an overreaction to the Andre Brown situation.
Remember Accorsi/Reese have got us spoiled to the point of freaking out over an 8-8 season….let me repeat 8-8 season. Most franchises could be so lucky.
In Reese I Trust.
agreed
also, awesome screen name. I love Big Jake, but I want Bradshaw getting at least 51% of the carries this year, if not more. I think he’s gonna be one of the biggest breakout stars this year – if he’s used right he should easily clear 1,500 all purpose yards.
2009 Did Not Happen
bradshaw
needs to be used out of the backfield catching passes and screens
by The Blood of Eli on Sep 8, 2010 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions
definitely
I drafted him in my fantasy league in the hopes that the Giants properly utilize him, in which case he should easily be one of my two starting RB’s.
2009 Did Not Happen
definetly
gilbride is a complete doofus though and has no clue how to run an offense…. hopefully they allow eli to do more playcalling this year
by The Blood of Eli on Sep 8, 2010 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions
not to get off topic...
but I got him and jacobs late, like 7th and 9th rd…thinking of starting bradshaw, over mendenhall, or SJax…He’s going to have a huge year…..but anyways….
In Reese I Trust.
by Give it to 44. on Sep 8, 2010 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions
bradshaw potentially over jackson
mendenhall is a stud though.
Mendenhall may struggle early with a faux QB
I bet Steelers use him often and it boosts yards, but scores may be harder to come by, as Steelers go conservative with backup QB and some young WRs
yeah
i’ve got that rule, where you have to start your draft starters week 1, then analyze from there. Looks like 44’s on the bench. Funny, how my 7th rd RB pickup (44) is projected higher than my 2nd rd (SJax). No love for Big Blue in my league…
In Reese I Trust.
by Give it to 44. on Sep 8, 2010 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions
100% agree
He is a big play waiting to happen. Even if its not a big play he should still pick up positive yardage which is better than an incomplete
Definite possibility
Ward totaled 1400 in job share 2008
I think his talent could make his 220 touches go for 1500, maybe 1600
dumb question
but i cant find anywhere else on here to ask it
what number is victor cruz going to wear?
by The Blood of Eli on Sep 8, 2010 10:36 AM EDT reply actions
Can someone tell me
who makes the decisions to put in the second string guys? I know the players go in by package according to play but later in the game, either sure winner or loser, who decides when the Cruz, etc. gang will show up. Last year, not enough play time for the second guys. That is how they get better and we find out what they can do.
by UnknownJintsFan on Sep 8, 2010 10:49 AM EDT reply actions
That
would generally be up to the head coach.
by Ed Valentine on Sep 8, 2010 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions
Reese also supposedly wanted Heyward-Bey over Nicks
But, as others have said, it’s way too early to write off last year’s draft class.
I never believed that
JPP is a football player who is untrained
DHB a track star looking to make friends
Ramses
I’m giving up on him, I didn’t realize how skinny he was. He’s like what? 6’6" 220. He’s never going to get off a press
Tom Coughlin ----
"Victor Cruz! What do we need anybody for?, we’ve got Victor Cruz."
by The Blood of Eli on Sep 8, 2010 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions
I would NOT be calling him skinny
unless it was over the phone. I think it is technique. Look at how JPP ended up on the floor a few times in the beginning. He is a monster athlete but did not know the ropes.
by UnknownJintsFan on Sep 8, 2010 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions
Wow...
Not many WR, or TE’s for that matter have arms like that. Guess that puts the “skinny” theory to rest.
I cant friggin wait for 1:00 Sunday
I thought the time between the end of the season and the draft was long. The time between the draft and the new season is FOREVER. These are going to be the longest 4 days I can remember since Wednesday this time last year.
Is the question being avoided?
We got a extra 2nd round pick for Shockey in that ’09 draft right?
Was Beatty or Sintim worth it?
Please get Phil Simms in the Hall of Fame
kevin boss
getting on the field was worth it imo
by The Blood of Eli on Sep 8, 2010 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions
Shockey isn't much in NO
Just another guy, so Id say yes
Team should have shopped him right after Super Bowl if he threw a fit, i mean really, you can’t be happy for the team.
DA
Man I love playing Devils Advocate and I think Ed has dodged this one.
He’s not much? Sure looked good scoring in the SB and against us last year.
I think we need to take emotion of it on this one. Which pick did we use from NO – was it on Beatty of Simtim?
I don’t disagree he would’ve been a distraction.
Please get Phil Simms in the Hall of Fame
you cant
make that decision yet for either…. both need another year or two before u can decide bust status… sintim is going to see the field often this year and if injuries hit the oline beatty will see the field…. then we can go back and have this discussion
by The Blood of Eli on Sep 8, 2010 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions
Just saying that Shockey is a fine player
But not the focal point he wanted, demanded to be here
So to me not having him hasn’t set back Giants, Sintim has made the team younger, and may yet start, while Shockey has what a year or 2 left?
But it wasn’t a slam dunk plus for Giants and it def helped Saints
Boss
had 6 less catches and only 2 less receiving yards but also had 2 more TD’s than Shcokey and averaged 1.5 yards more per catch last year.
The comparison is
not Boss vs. Shockey.
it’s Shockey vs. Sintim.
You all rather have Sintim huh?
Please get Phil Simms in the Hall of Fame
That's not really the issue
We traded Shockey for a second round pick. That was reasonable value. The fact that the pick turned out to be Sintim just means we perhaps didn’t use the pick in the wisest way. There were certainly players we could have taken with that pick that would have had a more immediate impact.
by Tucker Fredrickson on Sep 8, 2010 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Ok - that is my point
We didn’t use the pick wisely and we didn’t do well with that pick.
that is all I’m trying to say with that trade.
We picked a bust (possibly) for a guy that is a top 10 TE in the league.
Please get Phil Simms in the Hall of Fame
Eli has played MUCH better ever since we got rid of Shockey
Eli was always concerned about him getting the ball and it screwed with his mind.
by mclaren_is_the_best on Sep 8, 2010 9:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd take Shockey over Sintim any day
A lot of people here hate on Shockey, I’m sorry but the guy was a stud for us. Reese and Coughlin were dodo birds about how they handled the Shockey situation. If anyone thinks that rift was all Shockey’s fault they weren’t paying attention. The team managed to win without Shockey on the field so Reese decided he was expendable and treated him as such and let such feelings be known into the media. Had Reese once said he wanted Shockey here problems would have been avoided. Instead whenever asked about trade talks around Shockey he always gave his lame “I look into everything” bit. The Shockey episode is one example of the arrogance of Reese that really bugs me.
For those folks who don’t want it about SHockey vs. SIntim because Reese is too obviously wrong in that move and wnat to make it Shockey vs. Boss (though this isn’t what the effect was on the roster by the move), I’d take Shockey over Boss any day of the week as well. I know there is a lot of man love on here for Boss, but honestly he is just an average to maybe above average TE in this league. He is not a stud TE. He cannot block anywhere near as well as SHockey and he does not demand the same level of coverage attention as Shockey. Shockey’s stats were down due to Gilbride being a moron. When Peyton was our OC Shockey was the best TE in the league. NOw in NO he is still a great TE. He doesn’t have gaudy stats because they have a lot of options to throw to and Brees spreads it around, but people too quickly forget how Shockey was a security blanket that helped Eli develop. Everyone wants to make out like Shockey was bad for Eli, I say BS! A great TE is a young QBs best friend because he is that outlet pass. Shockey bailed out Eli often and well and Eli never had bad things to say about him.
eli was on Francesa show
about 2-3 weeks ago and said he had a problem with shockey. It was maybe the most candid I’ve ever heard him. But of course Francesa is so concerned with hearing himself talk that he didn’t really follow up. I’ll try to get a transcript or audio clip
really?
I would be interested in hearing that. I think he did two with Francesa in the past month or so???
I remember I caught one of them but I don’t recall the shockey comment.
"If I'm curt, then I apologize" - Newman
I too would be interested to hear/see that
It pretty much contradicts everything I’ve heard in interviews from Eli about Shockey in the past.
I hate to bash former players
but you want this?
I assure you “dehydrated” is a euphemism for something else
Against all odds, against all circumstance were you don't have a shot, you succeed
All you hear about is the past, the past... the past is the !@#$ing past, this is the present.
THIS IS TEMPORARY! A CHAMPIONSHIP IS PERMANENT
-Michael Strahan
You can assure that can you?
How exactly? Were you present? If it were a case other than dehydration why wouldn’t we have heard the real reason? The media doesn’t hold back. If there were more to it we’d be hearing about it plenty. Also, a somehwat old and insignificant story. Plenty of players have done far worse than get dehydrated at a party. Even if he was blitz drunk, big deal. Everyone loves Bradshaw (including me), but he served jail time while on our roster. Some people still love Plax, but the dude shot himself in the leg in a nightclub with a gun he was carrying illegally. Shoot, Plax was more of a “problem player” than Shockey ever was. The Shockey hate is foolish and comes from the way he and the team split, which like I said can’t be laid entirely at his feet.
Look
Dehydration… At a pool party… What dehydrates you? What do you drink a lot of at parties? What do you do in Vegas?
Plax never demanded the ball like Shockey did. I’ll take Plax back before I take Shockey back. If shockey had an ounce of the humility Boss did, he’d still be a giant.
I like players you wouldn’t mind knowing in real life.
Unless you like to party, I’ll take Boss over Shockey.
Against all odds, against all circumstance were you don't have a shot, you succeed
All you hear about is the past, the past... the past is the !@#$ing past, this is the present.
THIS IS TEMPORARY! A CHAMPIONSHIP IS PERMANENT
-Michael Strahan
Seriously?
Did you just say Plax never demanded the ball? Really? I think you are having selective memory there. Quite frankly I want players that want the ball anyways, but big difference betwen Shockey and Plax was Shockey was out there fired up playing hard. If Plax wasn’t getting targeted he just took plays off. Shockey was a competitor, Plax was a selfish spoiled brat. Between Plax and Shockey who was the one not practicing, showing up late etc. and who was the one dropping his shoulder for more yards after his helmet had been knocked off?
it wasn't so much that Shockey wanted the ball
it was that he’d practically ridicule Eli for not getting it to him. remember a few years back, Eli was in an interview and said that he called shockey and told him to leave florida and come to camp? a day or two later, shockey went out of his way to make it clear Eli can’t make him do anything and he spoke to Eli about going public with something like that. I just didn’t like that dude after that. And he was my favorite player on the team since he became a giant.
See this is where I think people remember what they want
After the team shuffled him aside it was all “oh he was so hard on Eli”. SOrry that isn’t what I saw.
As for not going to voluntary mini camps, all of the U guys work out together in Miami. Everyone knows this, and those guys are always ready for the season. They usually get better work there than their teams mini camps. Eli asking Shockey was fine, but Shockey had a point that Eli going to the press with it wasn’t.
I don't see Phillips going down to Miami
If you’re a team player you better do everything you can to help the team. If that means working out with your QB who at the time was struggling somewhat then you better be there working with him.
Shockey didn’t give a crap about Eli or the rest of the team. He only cared about himself.
It’s really not a coincidence that Eli has become 2x the player he was after they got rid of Shockey.
by mclaren_is_the_best on Sep 8, 2010 9:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Really Eli getting better didn't have anything to do with experience?
Phillips is recovering from a surgery. We’ll see if he joins the U crew next year. It is a good chunk of the U players that go workout together.
Experience...?
Were talking about 2007, 3 years after he got his first start. Even that year, he was very shaky and arguably the weakest part of our team until Shockey got hurt.
After that his TD to INT ratio improved considerably and our offense as a whole has been more effective and consistent.
by mclaren_is_the_best on Sep 8, 2010 10:05 PM EDT up reply actions
You can say Boss is humble
or you can say he is a ho hum type of player. Ho hum players are fine, but with how much we talk about not having enough passionate leadership on this team a guy like Shockey would provide that.
Yeah again remember it how you will
I remember a guy who lit a fire under our offense. A guy who would bulldoze out that extra yard for the first down pop up and shove his arm forward and a team that would react by stepping up their play. I remember players talking in interviews about how he was a spark that would get the offense running. You rememeber what you want, but that’s what I remember. When he got thrown under the bus and it was Shockey vs. the Giants I think a lot of folks decided to remember his time here differently because of their love for the Giants.
shockey was definitely a spark
and one thing you can always say about him is he played his ass off every game. but he was no leader. He never, the coaches never, and the players never referred to shockey as a leader. 07-08 Brandon Jacobs played his ass off also, but he’s no leader. nor does he set an example that his teammates want to follow
the latter people you're talking about live in the present
called reality. You live in 2005 i guess.
I'm talking about how the past is remembered
And you are talking about living in the present? Sorry, bad argument. You have your opinion and I have mine. That’s fine. I know Shockey became a hated man by a lot of Giants fans after the split (even though many of these fans had previously loved him), and I don’t expect to change any minds here. I can recognize the reality of the fact that the hate came on strong after the split and has a lot to do with siding with the team over the player. That doesn’t jive with me because it’s not so much Shockey vs the Giants to me as it is a question of how Reese and Coughlin handled the situation. I have felt for a while that these two are very poor at how they interact with and handle players.
what did they do?
or didn’t do for that matter. There’s tons of articles of how they went out of there way to make the guy happy.
It's not a matter of remembering what I want.
777 you have to understand that I’m very capable of stepping outside of my comfort zone and analyze a situation fairly.
Shockey has been a card carrying jackass since college…..he promptly called Parcells a fag upon coming to NY, he constantly demanded the ball, he would question the coaches the play calls….
was he a spark? hell yeah….he was electric at times and used to flat out abuse R. Williams (which we all jumped up and down for)…..but the guy has personality flaws.
Even down in NO…..Brees had to give him a verbal spanking on the sidelines that one game.
there is no taking away from his physical talents…..
"If I'm curt, then I apologize" - Newman
Shockey was also the player at Wellington Mara's bedside in the final days
Shockey and old man Mara had a father and son type relationship. The two were very close. Sorry but if the duke was that close to you, you can’t be as bad of a guy as you want to make Shockey out to be. He was a passionate competitive player. I know some want only players that shut up sit in the corner and wait to be told what to do. I don’t. I like a player with some fire. When I played sports I was a loud mouth hot head too, but I gave everything I had for my team. I like rooting for those guys. I’m sure Wellington’s passing was incredibly hard on him and then after that the team that once was like your family starts treating you like unwanted garbage. Yeah I’m sure you’d have no hard feelings. Let’s also not pretend like Shockey is the only player who has had difficulties with the Tom and Jerry show.
that was a very nice gesture...
Shockey is not the spawn of Satan. I never said he was….I said he was a jackass. I never pretended that the Giants act like Shockey was the only “bad boy” either, and frankly, I’m shocked you would even insinuate that I had….every single Giants Fan knows that much!
I don’t deal in absolutes like that. It’s not that “black and white”. You said that he was physically talented and I agreed with you…I backed you on that. There really is nothing you can say to me that can convince me that the guy did not have personality flaws…and at times was a detriment to the team.
"If I'm curt, then I apologize" - Newman
Personality flaws yes
Like many human beings I know. It’s the notion that he was poison to the team I don’t buy into. It’s a coaches job to manage personalities. Something Coughlin sucks at. Also some of my posts are directed more at the general sentiment around this topic rather than directly at your posts.
fair enough
don’t know if coughlin sucks at managing personalities though….he’s had his hands full…but I actually thought the Giants did a great job of extending an olive branch to Jeremy but the final straw IMO was the shouting match with JR on the practice field.
777 are you familiar with ultimateNYG.com? I honestly think you would have a blast there…
"If I'm curt, then I apologize" - Newman
I read them as well for an additional viewpoint
Along with several of the other sites. ShouldI take your post as a hint that going against the grain isn’t accepted here? Conform or get out of the flock?
not at all 777
I was actually looking out for you b/c I thought you would like it. I actually read UltimateNYG on a regular basis (even though they get my blood boiling from time to time)
I don’t take subliminal shots at people like that. If i had something on my mind I would tell you. After all, we’re Giants Fans right?
"If I'm curt, then I apologize" - Newman
Sorry
Overly defensive based on some of what has been getting tossed around lately. Unfair of me to lump you with that.
apparently you're remembering 2002
and not 2005-2007. Shockey WAS a great tight end, and he DID light a fire under Kerry Collins’ offense. He was not that guy in 2007, and I’m sorry, but you are very clearly the one who is remembering it wrong. It’s not just revisionist fans, Michael Strahan thought the Giants needed to part ways with Shockey.
Read the comments right after he was traded
Also, for your contention that Shockey was clearly great, check out this post.
Look, I get that you like Shockey. I liked him too. I wish 2002 Shockey could have been around forever. But 2007 Shockey was not 2002 Shockey. He’s a prima donna who’s only happy when he’s an integral part of a team winning. Look at the difference in his attitude between his first season in New Orleans and last year. Sure, he’s great to have when you’re winning, but that doesn’t make him a good teammate.
For a Giants team that barely utilizes the Tight End, having Shockey was a waste, and he was never going to be happy here. Boss, if he were playing in a different offense, could probably get 80 catches for 1,000 yards. But, he doesn’t, and to date he has been fine with that. That’s the kind of guy the Giants need. Not Jeremy Shockey.
2009 Did Not Happen
by cjmulrain on Sep 9, 2010 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Let's check stats shall we
2005: 65 catches for 891 yards and 7 TDs.
2006: 66 catches for 623 yards and 7 TDs.
2007: 57 catches for 619 yards and 3 TDs in 14 games.
Boy he really sucked those years didn’t he?
Let’s look at Boss’s first two full seasons with us as the starter at TE:
2008: 33 catches for 384 yards and 6 TDs.
2009: 42 catches for 567 yards and 5 TDs.
Boss is getting looks in the redzone, but he’s not putting up the numbers up and down the field like Shockey did. There’s no remembering to that, the numbers are right there. Let’s look at the two years Shockey has been in NO:
2008: 50 catches for 483 yards and 0 TDs in 12 games.
2009: 48 catches for 569 yards and 3 TDs in 13 games.
If your paying attention still you can see that Shockey had more catches and yards in less games. Let’s also acknowledge that Boss is nowhere near as good of a blocker as Shockey.
It’s up to the coaches to utilize the talents on their team. Plenty of folks here rip into Gilbride for not utilizing certain current roster spot holders, but the fact that he didn’t utilize Shockey is the players fault. Right, nice double standard.
when did I say he sucked?
You’re the one putting words in peoples mouths. I don’t think a single person here has EVER said that Shockey isn’t a good football player. He is. He’s not as good as he was in 2002, when he looked like he was going to be Tony Gonzalez 2.0, but he’s still pretty darn good.
And, yes, Shockey outperformed Boss, but part of the reason for that is the Giants spread the ball out to their receivers more. Steve Smith became the third down guy, and he was way better in that role than Shockey ever was – 107 catches last year, 20+ more than any receiver had during Shockey’s tenure.
You’re claiming that losing Shockey made the Giants worse. I disagree with you. I think Shockey was a great talent who didn’t really fit in with the Giants game plan or locker room (as evidenced by what Strahan said), and it was better for both parties to move on.
2009 Did Not Happen
I think Brees and the Saints spread it around quite a bit themselves
I’m not putting words in your mouth. Just trying to respond to wha appeared to be your statement. When you say I must be remembering 2002 and not 2005-07 that would be read by most individuals as implying there was some issue with 2005-07. As well as you stating that he lit fires under Kerry Collins offense but not in 07. Again most anyone reading that is going to read that you are implying issue with his 2007 season, yet he put up very good numbers. Were they equal to 2002, no but not that much of a drop off either. 2005 was as good as 2002 if not better when you consider the TD count. If you weren’t trying to say Shockey had dropped off, I guess I missed what you were trying to say, and I’m still not sure what it is.
I’ve got no problems with Steve Smith or Kevin Boss, but my point remains they aren’t what we got for losing Shockey. We got Clint Sintim. I’ll take Shockey over Sintim, that’s just my opinion. I think we are going to see teams clamp down on Steve Smith this year. We’ll see how he does with the extra attention. I have faith he’ll still find a way, but you have to admit having another option like SHockey that defenses would have to worry about on 3rd down would not be a bad thing.
look at how Eli's stats improved since Shockey left the team
You have to look at it from all different angles
by mclaren_is_the_best on Sep 9, 2010 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions
I simply think there are far too many variables
to attribute Eli’s development to the departure of Shockey. Eli got got hot going into the postseason of 2007. QBs have hot and cold streaks. The results of the hot streak (a SB win) gave Eli something to build a great deal of confidence from, setting him up for major success as a QB.
a hot streak which started, incidentally, right after Shockey got hurt
sure, there’s lots of variables, just like there were lots of variables when the Giants fell apart two years ago, right after Plax shot himself.
Also, you never answered my question before: what is your opinion on Tiki Barber?
2009 Did Not Happen
Don't be a jerk
I disagree that his game coming together magically aligned with Shockey leaving. Things were really starting to come together for Eli that year and he was getting hot before Shockey went down. Shockey went down at the very end of the season. Without him we might not have even made the playoffs that year.
I don’t like Tiki, but that is because as a father I can’t stand what he did to his family. It’d be hard to say he didn’t do some big things while playing for us though.
Leadership?
Or gimme da balllll
Shockey’s not a leader, and won’t be one.
Against all odds, against all circumstance were you don't have a shot, you succeed
All you hear about is the past, the past... the past is the !@#$ing past, this is the present.
THIS IS TEMPORARY! A CHAMPIONSHIP IS PERMANENT
-Michael Strahan
I've been to Rehab...i'm sure others on the board have been there too
honestly…I would not doubt that it was dehydration….
I mean to get to rehab you wanna get there around 11 am or 12…..and btw, that is extremely EARLY for Vegas…primarily b/c no one sleeps out there and if they do they usually do so when the sun is rising.
chances are Jeremy was on a 48 bender consisting of alcohol, gambling, and probably a lot of women….
He’s no Saint (get it?)….but I’m willing to bet money that the Vegas sun combined w/ no sleep, and a lot of devilish behavior caught up to him that faithful morning in Vegas.
I’m not agreeing with you or willgfass….it could have been total inebriation…it coulda been dehydration….it coulda been an empty stomach.
once in the palisades mall I fainted and took down about 3 racks of clothes with me….and that only thing i was on was an “empty stomach”
"If I'm curt, then I apologize" - Newman
and my point is
even if it was total inebriation I don’t really care. That’s not the biggest problem in the world. He certainly wouldn’t be the only person in the world to ever have too much to drink, but since the report doesn’t even call that into question I think it’s pretty wrong to make the claim and then “assure” it.
our offense really opened up
when we didn’t need to allocate looks to one receiver.
Who cares if we lost shockey? it hasn’t hurt us yet.
Would that be Plax you are talking about?
We never “needed” to allocate looks to Shockey. We didn’t spread the ball around to multiple recievers really until 09 when our running game was getting stuffed and we “needed” to throw it around. You can say it hasn’t hurt us, I say it has. We lost a big weapon and a solid blocker, and we got a project LB that can’t win the job handed to him on a silver platter.
We didn't "get" boss out of the deal
He was already here, and him and Shockey would have been a nice one two. We currently have no two at TE.
Boss
made Shockey expendable. I loved the guy too, he was great, but his value dropped dramatically when Boss started producing, the team was winning, and as unfortunate as it was Shockey was on the sideline injured. Manning is not the kind of guy who likes receivers barking in his face, and in order to make it ’Manning’s locker room, they moved Shockey along. I think Eli’s offensive leadership has stepped up a little due to Shockey’s departure.
The Sintim draft pick was good value at the time for Reese, to move along a ‘distraction’ and not lose much at the TE position if anything at all. You can’t judge Sintim yet. Who knows he might have to end up starting this year, and maybe he’ll produce? Maybe he’ll be the next James Harrison, and produce in his 3rd year? Or maybe he’ll just suck. Too early to judge the kid.
In Reese I Trust.
by Give it to 44. on Sep 8, 2010 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Thats an ignorant way to look at things.
hindsight is always 20/20. Shockey is/was a headcase. And its not like he’s performed since the beginning of the 2007 season. 557 yards and 2 touchdowns/season is such an elite TE these days.
Boss has averaged 356 yards and 4 touchdowns per season during the same time. That includes boss’s 9 catch 2007 in shockey’s absence. Boss has also averaged more yards per catch during the same time.
13 Tight Ends had more yards than shockey last year. 17 tight ends had more touchdowns than shockey last year. 9 players had a better yards per catch than shockey last year (boss was #3 in the league).
How is shockey such a great weapon now? It’s not 2005. Its time to be a fan of the giants, not a fan of shockey. It was in the giants best interest to get rid of shockey the attitude.
"Its time to be a fan of the giants, not a fan of shockey."
That pretty much illustartes my point perfectly. Was Shockey perfect in every way? No. But I don’t lay all the blame on him. I can take off the homer glasses for long enough to see that the Tom and Jerry crew mishandled things. I believe it made our team weaker not stronger, but you will remember it how you would like and that will probably be tainted by the quote above.
How many more tight ends
won the Superbowl last year?
"Osi said he's going to London to see the Eiffel Tower." -- Michael Strahan (America's Game - 2007 NY Giants)
that's an absurd argument
and besides, how many more tight ends won the Super Bowl than Kevin Boss in 2007?
But, no, you’re right. Shockey won the Super Bowl, so he’s the best TE in the NFL. Just like Pierre Thomas and Reggie Bush are better than Chris Johnson and Adrian Peterson. Obviously.
2009 Did Not Happen
I'll have to label my rhetorical questions as absurd from now on.
"Osi said he's going to London to see the Eiffel Tower." -- Michael Strahan (America's Game - 2007 NY Giants)
We lost a pain in the ass
And a person you don’t like to root for unless he’s on your team.
For that enough I’m glad he’s off the team. Don’t get me wrong, I used to love him. I even defended his decision to sit in the box seats instead of on the sidelines.
But he’s Bree’s problem now.
Against all odds, against all circumstance were you don't have a shot, you succeed
All you hear about is the past, the past... the past is the !@#$ing past, this is the present.
THIS IS TEMPORARY! A CHAMPIONSHIP IS PERMANENT
-Michael Strahan
Some more inventive memory I see
The Giants made Shockey sit in the box. He wanted to be on the field with his teammates but the Giants wouldn’t let him. Starting to see my point that there were two sides to this story? Hey you were part of a team that made it to the superbowl, but I think your expendable now so I’m not going to let you be with the team. Tell me, how do you feel?
The giants didn't let any of the IR'd players to be on the sidelines for the Superbowl
by mclaren_is_the_best on Sep 8, 2010 9:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Whether your statement is true
I don’t know without looking it up. Either way willgfass’ statement is false.
Forgot that
Excuse me for that.
But he was moping whenever they had shots to him.
Peyton was so happy when Eli scored, but Shockey was like “I don’t care” body language wise.
Against all odds, against all circumstance were you don't have a shot, you succeed
All you hear about is the past, the past... the past is the !@#$ing past, this is the present.
THIS IS TEMPORARY! A CHAMPIONSHIP IS PERMANENT
-Michael Strahan
you are right 777
and I really don’t give 2 turds either….it’s not a crime to have a good time. Like I said, I’m not saying You are right or willgfass is right, but Jeremy definitely has an attitude that can bring a lot of negative attention upon himself.
getting into a shouting match with the GM is also not a great way to endear yourself to the team. Demanding the football be thrown to you is also pretty immature…especially when his hands were suspect and he’d always smiled after he dropped one.
either way….the incident in Vegas was just an microcosim of why Jeremy is no longer in NY.
"If I'm curt, then I apologize" - Newman
and Yes, by that I am assuing that Jeremy was no Alter boy that weekend.....
I mean, who the hell goes to Vegas to behave themselves???
I’m not saying he was sniffing 8 balls off hookers and making it rain w/ Pacman Jones in the strip club….but to not indulge!?!?! He damn well better have been….
"If I'm curt, then I apologize" - Newman
All draft picks are question marks
From the #1 overall pick to the 200th pick, every draft pick has its risks and possible rewards. If your first round pick is a bust, it appears to be a huge failure on the part of the team’s front office. If your 7th round pick makes the team, it is a feel good story. There are no guarantees with draft picks. None.
baritone sax!
I like the inadvertent Gerry Mulligan reference
This is all meaningless!!!
Not the substance of all the points made up until now because they are all valid but draft picks, stats, and perceived success or failure mean nothing if the player pull up and QUIT like last year. We can’t measure “heart” but I would say we were about as close to flat-line as possible…
I don’t quit as a fan and I felt personally insulted that the team that I breath for from training camp to Superbowl all but abandoned people who have never turned their backs on them.
"Osi said he's going to London to see the Eiffel Tower."
reese had lots of early success but in the nfl you can’t rest on previous picks. he and coughlin should be on shorter strings. there paid big bucks and they need to soon start to justufy their important positions. owners should see immediate improvement or make changes. owners number one priority should be to fans who pay big bucks for season tickets. patience is a good quality but not over patience. get it done or get rid of the coach and g.m.
I didn't read all the comments...
But you have to wonder if the 2009 draft was just a weak draft overall. The Eagles drafted 8 players in 2009 and only 2 remain with the team in any capacity. In comparison Reese looks good.
I'm not drunk I'm just drinking.
Which would you prefer
drafting 9 and getting 1 LT caliber superstar or drafting 9 and getting 4 or 5 solid players that stick around for a while?
"Osi said he's going to London to see the Eiffel Tower."
it really depends on previous drafts
I think every four years you want two “One stud, one solid starter, the rest busts” drafts and two “Nobody really stands out but several players should have meaningful minutes on special teams or on the second string” drafts.
Three or four “one stud, one starter, and nobody worth a roster spot” drafts isn’t going to give you any depth to succeed, and Three or four “all these guys are ok” drafts isn’t going to give you the special players required for a superbowl run.
Good question
In most drafts I’d settle for one stud at any position. If Nicks continues to shine and establishes himself as a star I’d be satisfied. A WR will be solid for 10years.
"I don't do many endorsements. I'd rather get doused by Gatorade than bust my butt selling it." - Bill Parcells
If the team has solid player already on it
then the 1/9 is fine. But if the team sucks, one star isn’t gonna do anything so that case I’d take the 4 or 5 solid starters.
If Fairness to Will Beatty
knowing Coughlin’s personality, Beatty would have to really stand out to replace Deihl. TC likes status quo. He doesn’t trust rookies or young players. I said in these pages for months the Giants will start the season with the same 5 they’ve started with the past few season.
"I don't do many endorsements. I'd rather get doused by Gatorade than bust my butt selling it." - Bill Parcells
Still a bit early to label this class
But it does seem weaker than previous years. I do feel that getting a superstar quality player at pick 29 is huge though.
Random Thoughts on Reese...
This has been an excellent thread to read through with lots of actual discussion, theory and knowledge. With that as a springboard, I’ll toss in a few of my own random thoughts about Reese here.
The NFL, more than any other of the major sports leagues is structured to create a level playing field over time. One team doesn’t spent three times what everyone else does, nobody gets to hoard all the top draft picks, etc. But it’s structured in a way no only to try and insure regression to the mean, but also in a way that allows Bill James’ “Law of Competetive Balance”, in which new, separate, but unequal strategies are employed over time by various players, with some proving to provide an advantage, which are quickly mocked by other players to disipate that advantage, while others confer no lever to success and doom their innovator, while being ignored by other teams.
In this setting, it’s hard to make a quick evaluation of how Reese, or any other GM is doing. As already argued and demonstrated well earlier in this thread, it’s not valid to use the number of draft picks who stick with a team as a measuring stick of success. This is because of the tendency of poorer teams to retain more new infusions of talent (draft choices) because of their relatively lower overall talent levels, while stronger teams require ever stronger draftees to budge someone with their rosters.
Another factor is WHERE you draft from. A team drafting a dozen draft spots ahead of a second team, on average, over any extended period of time, three years, five years, etc. should have a superior success ratio of draftees. This is in part due to getting “better” talent with the earlier picks, and also, because of the draft structure, being a weaker team, thus getting to pick sooner, and conversely having a weaker existing talent level with which to infuse talent into. Thus in judging performance of a GM, one would have to weight where the draft selections of one GM were, vs. where those of a competing GM were in order to justify the performance.
Now I’m both old and lazy, and I don’t have the time or energy at the moment to do a weighted ranking. However, I will use some mental shorthand. If a system is designed to insure parity, and over a length of time, your franchise is consistantly above or below parity, this should tell you immediately whether you have a competent or incompetent management, as variables like injury, will tend to average out, over time, among the various franchises.
A telling example would be the Matt Millin years with the Lions, where, despite having a team that consistantly posted poor enough records to generate early drafting status, the team failed to approach parity with the rest of the league. This would imply that the leadership was demonstrably BELOW the majority of the rest of the league.
And then you get to the Giants, and the situation with Mr. Reese. The Giants were at parity last year, a .500 team. That, fortunately for Giants fans, is the low water mark for the last five years. Yes, we all hated last year and how it turned out, but we were pretty much right where the system would design us to be. However 80% of the time we’ve been ABOVE parity, including winning a Super Bowl and never below it in that time frame. This implies a franchise that is demonstrably ABOVE the majority of the rest of the league, and by definition would indicate that whatever moves have been made, on the whole, have worked out far more often than they’ve failed.
Yes, Reese has made head scratching draft choices, and yes we’ve had failed picks. But we’ve also had a disproportionate contribution from lower level draft picks and undrafted free agents. We have weak spots and spots that don’t meet the levels of Giant tradition (our linebackers don’t evoke fear in the hearts of opponents), but compensating, we have one of the better receiving corps we’ve ever had.
Does this guarantee anything for the future? No, but it does indicate that overall the Giants have been a very successful and aptly managed franchise that has consistently over time beaten the bias of the league towards parity. While I’m one of those who snipes about some of the picks we’ve made, such snipes are made with the acknowledgement that overall, it’s been a pretty good half decade to be a Giant fan.
And to add a bit of contrast, I’ve been a Mets fan for 48 years, and I can tell you that’s a team that has been interesting and competetive about 1/4 of the time. Cheering for such a franchise does breed patience however (as well as frustration), and while I’m not about to say that Reese’s draft of ‘09 was fantastic, I’m willing to wait until these guys have had at least a couple of years of play before I’m ready to call them stars or busts.
by Cranky50 on Sep 8, 2010 1:48 PM EDT reply actions 5 recs
Great bit of Perspective
All in all, we don’t have too much to complain about. Having said that, the thing I wonder about Reese is how he sets his board. In 2008, he absolutely had to take a safety (KP) and in ’’09 he needed a WR (Nicks). Beyond that, some of his picks are hard to figure.
As 777 noted way further up in the string, he seems to take a lot of “projects.” To me a project is somebody who is either inexperienced (JPP), experienced but at a low level of collegiate competition (Barden, and arguably Beatty), or experienced but drafted to play a different position (or similar position in a very different defensive scheme) (Sintim). The Beckum pick is a total head scratcher. Why draft a “soft” pass-catching TE when you’ve already got one that your OC fails to fully utilize?
It seems Reese is setting his draft board with a heavy emphasis on upside potential, rather than proven meat and potatoes (JPP over Derrick Morgan a classic case). When you hit it right, this makes you look like a superstar. But, I’m not sure how it will play over time. A lot of projects fail, and I’m not sure it is a wise long term strategy to be drafting projects in rounds 1-3. This is where you need to get your starters from, and if you have a couple years where you strike out, you will find yourself with a mediocre NFL team.
I agree that Reese seems to love "projects"....
partly I’m guessing, this reflects that he’s generally been drafting from a position of relative strength. There has been talent on the roster, and as you’ve mentioned sometimes a glaring needed that had to be addressed, and usually was quickly. Beyond that, my guess is that he doesn’t generally feel alarmed about gearing up for the upcoming year, but rearming to keep the ship riding the high water over the next four or five years. This would explain a pick like a JPP or a Barden which may require a year or two to pay off (if the initial evaluation is correct). In the last draft, I think it was probably a bit of a unique situation where there was a definate need (middle linebacker), but only one clear option, which disappeared before we picked, before the draft for the position dropped from hot prospect to reasonable suspect. In order to do that, I’d further speculate that Reese has a higher opinon of the current crop of linebackers than most of the members of this site. If indeed, this year’s crop of young and unproven linebackers step up in the way the wide receivers did last year, Reese wins big by bypassing non-game changing linebacker picks and going elsewhere in the latest draft (assuming he gets some production out of those picks). If the current linebackers aren’t up to the job, he loses big. Personally I’d have taken Morgan, but I view “risk” as a dirty 4-letter word, which I don’t think Reese does. In general, it appears his philosophy is the one mentioned on this site often as win today, win next year, win every year. Until this year results in an overestimation of talent and a horrible season, you can’t really gripe about the approach, and the longer he’s able to pull it off, the more credit he deserves, whether we agree with each individual decision or not.
Personally...
I think Reese keeps it simple. He drafts for value based on his board regardless of the position. Obviously, he has his positions weighted based on overall ‘team’ strategy, as in, he puts more emphasis on D Line. But for the most part value on his board, and he probably listens to his scouts more than the average GM, considering his background.
In Reese I Trust.
by Give it to 44. on Sep 8, 2010 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Forgot to mention...
Marc Ross. He has a lot to do with the franchise’s success. It’ll be a sad day when some other franchise makes him their GM.
In Reese I Trust.
by Give it to 44. on Sep 8, 2010 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Parity
Parity is a key point. You cannot expect a SB team every year, and I don’t expect that every year. I just hope my team can be competitive. I’m still going to root my heart out for them even when they aren’t. We’ve all been there with our Giants. What bugs me is that it felt like we had an opporunity to have a little time at the top. As the league shifts around in power you get your windows where you can have some strings of years to be highly competitive. I get the sense that window is closing on us and we are sliding away. With the way we ended last year and the questions still unanswered with our roster I feel right now like we are trneding into the sub .500 category. I hope I am wrong, but that is the feeling I have right now.
+1 cranky
you almost lost me in the first paragraph, but nice read.
In Reese I Trust.
by Give it to 44. on Sep 8, 2010 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Thanks, and I'm sorry about my awful typing...
I wish we had the ability to self-edit our posts, as I have a tendency to miss a letter occasionally when typing on the laptop in addition to normal mistyping and my horrible spelling.
More doom n gloom
I know…slow news day in the Land of Giants, especially with the anticipation of the season at it’s highest (until 12:59pm Sunday). And it’s not that this isn’t a story to take a look at, especially as another writer had already put it out there. But as been said here, we can’t evaluate this viably until the end of next season.
Besides, if the thought is that Nicks will be a star this year, I think any team in the league would take one star a year from the draft. And with four others currently on the roster, another one on the PS (honestly, where did we think Bomar was going to be) and one we cut more b/c he was the odd man out at a deep position (and probably more due to injury factor than anything), I don’t currently have an issue with this draft.
Well…not yet, anyway.
My take
Reese drafted some guys with a lot of athleticism that needed to be refined in this draft. Thus the early returns are not looking as promising. I still think 2 or 3 out of Beaty Sintim, Barden, and Beckum will end up being solid contributors at the least. If so, and Nicks is a star, then it’s going to look like a pretty good draft.
Way too early to write this analysis in my opinion.
Par for the course...
season hasn’t even started yet……
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/football/nfl/09/08/jacobs.upset.ap/index.html
In Reese I Trust.
LMAO...you beat me to it
here’s the quote that gets me:
When asked whether the running backs must put their egos aside, Jacobs responded, “You think I’m stupid, (don’t) you?” and walked away.
is this guy really losing his mind right before our eyes? seriously…
LOL!
Jacobs is in a no win situation, especially since how the media’s gonna take a dump all over him now.
So until and through Sunday we’ll hear all about this bullcrap. I’d love to hear the real interview and the real question……
Good for Brandon then, if that's how it went.
The reporters are obviously trying to egg him on to say something else. I’d be pissed at the media too if I was him.
He’ll take it out on the Panthers now too, but should be an interesting couple days with this new crap.
Yes, he is.
I have faith in Coughlin. He’ll tell him to shutup if it becomes an issue…..Just read that the Giants signed CB Brian Jackson from the Jets to the practice squad. No idea if the guy is any good.
In Reese I Trust.
Yeah our 2009 draft was pretty terrible
I think that some people here overrate Nicks. Personally I think he will be a decent WR but never a star or anything special. Just a guy that makes a play here and there.
Sintim will never do anything on this team.
Beatty I think will be a good player and will become our LT in the future.
Barden will never amount to anything.
Beckum I think will be a good #2 Te that does some good things whenever he is on the field.
Rest of the draft was useless but that is to be expected with low round picks.
by mclaren_is_the_best on Sep 8, 2010 8:33 PM EDT reply actions
nah, nicks is gonna be awesome.
rookie year and he had almost 800 yards despite missing pretty much 3 games. tied for sixth in the league in yards per catch.
Devery Henderson is a good wide receiver who makes a play here and there. Nicks should be a top 25 receiver by the time he hits his prime.
if ya go 1 for 9
but that one is a game winning grandslam that knocks Boston out of the playoffs… that’s not so bad.
I still think Beatty, and Barden contribute a decent amount before this season is out, but if all we got is Nicks… I’ll take it.
These guys that remain
may very well step up and justify Reese’s faith, but really, this issue in itsself is as much of crap shoot as who to pick on Draft Day. Time will tell.
We didn't even have a chance for the "perfect season", but we did have the perfect ending.
Lets make a little sense because Ernie isnt.
First the 1-9 thing is nonsense, why even count 5-7 round picks, those picks are long shots to make NFL teams and even if they do there impact is not depended on, typically…..now from the top, Dream is a star in the makling but he is not one yet but i would put my money on it…….Beatty is the only one of this list that should be firmly in his starting position but the comp is stiff and he will eventually become our LT………Sintim, lets qualify this: he was a LOLB in a 34, he comes to the Giants, and they move him to a 43 LOLB with sheridan there, sheridan leaves and in comes Fewell, now sintim is asked to learn a new SAM position which is actually the Wil position in Fewells scheme ( my head is spinning just thinking about this) so in actuality u have asked Clint to learn 3 brand new positions in 2 years while still being a playmaker…..thats hilarious, when he gets it you will be amazed but he needs playing time and with TC you dont get that until your damn near perfect but he will…….. as for Beckum, they simply drafted a talent without a fit, I think he was brought in with the thought he could make up for our perceived lack of WR talent but the WR’s took over and left him with no plays to run!!!, please hold judgment on this draft class, they will all more than likely get it toegether, lets not act like all these guys werent the truth in college!!, and thats what u draft based on, so Reese did an excellent job IMO.
Peyton May Have The Wins!!
But Eli Will Have The Rings!!!
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