The Giants are Changing, for Better or Worse
by GiantNomad on Jul 29, 2010 11:49 AM EDT
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Warning: Most of what I say is irrelevant, KG and TC are too conservative to enact most of it, but here's to hoping...and recognizing that the Giants don't have the same personnel they did in 2007.
In the past I took pride in the Giants being one of those few old school NFL teams; they ran the ball down your throat and backed it up with an in your face defense. While I still love that brand of football, and I definitely always will...I don't necessarily think that's the way forward for these Giants. Let's take a look at some of our offensive players:
Eli Manning: People say his stats were up because we were constantly playing from behind. I say we turn it around. How many of our drives start with authority and fizzle out for a short field goal? I'm so sick of that. Let's score quickly and put pressure on the other team.
Hakeem Nicks: Barring injury, he is the future. Our 'playmaker' with all the skills necessary to be a superstar in this league. Pure conjecture, but he looks like a decent blocker.
Steve Smith: Prototypical possession receiver. Always open, always reliable, needs to figure out what 'run after catch' means in order to maintain his No. 1 spot. Important note: Won't ever be the blocker than Amani and Plaxico were.
Mario Manningham: Most frustrating and exciting player on the team. Don't get me wrong, I hate the drops, the lack of awareness and all the other stupid mistakes. This guy with the ball in his hand is exciting. Deep threat. Bubble screens. Could be a returner. Has the potential to be an incredible offensive weapon. Doesn't seem like a great blocker. (Conjecture again.)
Ramses Barden: Pure potential. Red zone, red zone, red zone. Is taller than every DB and has the ability to out leap them. Pretty much catches anything sent his way. If he can get the discipline, he has the personality to be a star in New York. Again, I hear he's a bad blocker.
Kevin Boss: Give him more targets. Great blocker. Reality is that he's kind of slow, but in the red zone, that doesn't matter much.
Travis Beckum: Sorry to see him wasted on KG's offense. I want to see him succeed, but he's hamstrung by an offense that can't find a place for him and too talented of a WR corps. Also can't block.
Brandon Jacobs: I love the guy. I hate wasting money on jerseys (that aren't QBs) because 90% of the time those players leave. Still bought his jersey. He defined Giants football for those 2-3 years, but it's apparent he's got nowhere to go but downhill (no pun intended). His style of football was always going to limit his shelf life.
Ahmad Bradshaw: Ridiculously exciting player to watch. He will be at his best if we limit his carries and keep people from stacking the box. Fast, elusive, stronger than he looks. MJD-light.
Andre Brown: Question Mark.
I know this is a long post, but look at the big picture. We've invested money in and our talent is centered around the QB/pass-catchers. We don't have solid blocking WRs like Plax and Amani. Let's take advantage of what we've got instead of trying to play a brand of football that we don't necessarily have the personnel for anymore.
I know this post isn't necessarily the consensus, that's fine, I just want to hear what people have to say.
If you guys want it, I'll write a part 2 for the defense. It's not as drastic though.
FanPosts are written by community members. This is simply a way for community members to express opinions too long to be contained in a comment.
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I don't know why
All the player names weren’t hyperlinked. Anybody want to help?
Coughlin had Jimmy Smith, Keenan McCardell and Fred Taylor
all racking up a ton of yards with Jacksonville. Not much else, but not exactly a “conservative” team.
Gilbride also had the "run and shoot’ complete with a different Pro Bowl WR in 4 consecutive seasons.
They’ve got the talent depth now, so I’d count on something like this actually happening
Go New York Go!
agreed
this is the reason I took the under on Jacobs yardage.
Yeah we were behind alot last season but we also moved the ball through the air pretty damn well.
The whole thing rests on the O-line, we all know that, can they pass block as well as they have done run blocking? Cause if you give the weapons listed time to work… We could be looking at a Giants team that hangs up some record numbers.
maybe we turn into they old oilers of the 80's
or Vikings with Daunte Culpepper slinging it against a spread out D to moss and carter. opening it up for Robert Smith to gash you for 5. 2 yrds a carry. ya im Ok with that..
i cant see it happening
hicks smith and manningham are no moss and carter, and eli is no moon which were the 2 strong points of those offenses
We have a saying back home that if your coming on, COME ON!!!!
"Hicks" (or Hix) is on IR
Nicks is gonna be very good.
They may not be no Moss and Carter, but there’s also Steve Smith and possibly Ramses Barden. So they got 4 WR to do work.
Go New York Go!
by FreeBradshaw on Jul 31, 2010 7:35 AM EDT up reply actions
my bad meant nicks
and yea they could potentially have a great passing game but it wont be at the level of the late 90s vikings or the 80s oilers
We have a saying back home that if your coming on, COME ON!!!!
maybe not the Vikings
but the Oilers are definitely a possibility. Got the same OC too
Go New York Go!
by FreeBradshaw on Jul 31, 2010 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions
This is an interesting post....
and can turn into a very heated debate.
Me, personally….I think you hit the nail on the head when you said that TC and KG are too stuck in their ways….they are. That could work in our favor this year though?!
Here’s one of my issues….I really believe that Giant Stadium and the current stadium are severely effected by weather conditions. But moving forward….
Historically, if you look at our history, we’ve had “offensive” teams….who have come up short, consistently. On the flip side, we’ve won with “Defense”. Clearly we also had balance on those teams. (I’m not taking anything away from Simms, Eli, etc). But our D was the superior unit.
I have no problem with the way JR is building this team on Offense….because he seems to be just as concerned if not more so about the Defense….so that makes me very happy.
The issue comes in two forms A) How you draft and B) How you game plan on offense.
I have questioned the Beckum pick, not that I don’t like Beckum, but does he fit in with what Gilbride does on offense? I know the jury is still out, but let’s be realistic here. The WR situation is also great, but does it justify moving up and taking a guy like Barden when you know that you have horses in the stable, and the likelyhood of seeing 4 WR sets are slim to none in our offense?
Also, in regards to game planning….is it really wise right now to take to the air with no regard for human life??? I mean, what about Eli? What about our Oline? What about our pass blocking situation?
Hypotheticaly, if we have a stout defense behind us, don’t we wanna control the clock, run the ball, and keep the opposing Defense out on the field?
Look, if we’re just shutting teams out, than fine, do whatever you wanna do….but if we’re not I think we should be mindful of the ball and RUN the BALL
"Throw the damn ball to Kevin Boss" - Andiamo708
Mix it up
I think leaning on the run in those “control the clock games” is not all it’s cracked up to be. We get ultraconservative when trying to run out the clock and the game usually ends with our opponent firing the ball into the endzone 4 straight times as the clock expires.
A roll of the dice a bit earlier, or “a step on thier throats while they are on the ground” instead of trying to hurry up the game and let the clock kill the opponent, could seriously benefit this team.
The change that has occurred is that we Don’t have a Defense that is strong enough to shut out our opponents anymore. Our offense is the strength of this team, don’t handcuff them by asking them to control the clock (at all times) open up the gates. Those of you who argued that Eli is elite should also agree that this squad can hang 30pts on just about everyone. The way to do that is to exploit a teams weakness, just like teams looked at CC last year and threw all over us. Then they saw Osi doesn’t play the run and ran right at him.
We need Gilbride to have the freedom to look for the weakness and expose it, even if it is through the air, and we’re up by 3, and there is 2:15 left in the 4th with a 2nd and 8. If Nicks lines up against some chump one on one, I say f.. the clock! It’s always harder to comeback from a 10pt deficit than a 3 pts one. (case in point SD game last year, we never should have let them have a chance to do anything that mattered at the end, but we decided to play it safe and control the clock, and lost)
i’m not advocating that we abandon the run all together, if their Def. has shown throughout the season or even the first quarter of the game that they can’t stop the run, by all means a steady dose of Jacobs should put points on the board, but we have alot of weapons on offense. The most dangerous of which is Eli. Let him win a few for us, rather than having him go out there to hand the ball off all day long to control the clock, “and hey, don’t lose this one for us kid.”
The job of the offense is to score points. So use the best options available to score as many points as you can.
Sorry for the rant
that's fair...
for the record, I actually voted “no” on the Is Eli Elite? Thread.
by no means am I saying that we should get one dimensional. I think the pass/run distribution w/ Coughlin is great b/c it’s pretty close to 50/50. While I remember the Houston Oilers having a running game…I can’t help but remembering them being much more “pass” oriented…like a lot (I could be wrong on that).
So while I understand throwing the ball is flat out necessary, I don’t think we should have a Pass rating % exceeding, oh maybe 60% (and that’s high IMO).
I guess maybe I shouldn’t have said that our defense has to be “superior” in order to win….but obviously w/out it your dead in the water.
I guess maybe the comparisons of previous “high flying” offenses irks me because the teams being mentions aren’t SB winners?.
I think the supporters should be using last year’s N.O. team as the perfect example of a “offensive” team with a solid D who won it all. The problem here is that it’s going to come back to Brees vs Eli….and that’s a whole notha thread my friend.
of course the irony here is that Peyton was once in NY….it’s funny to image what he would have done with an offense like this.
with that being said, please do not confuse me request for a running / defensive team for a NON creative team. See that’s where KG losses me b/c it’s Run, pass to WR, Run, Pass to WR, Run, Pass to a WR….it goes back to my point about personnel and drafting.
"Throw the damn ball to Kevin Boss" - Andiamo708
YOU VOTED NO!
I thought only cowboys and eagles fans voted no just to sabotage our poll! But yeah agreed with the rest of your stuff, with high flying offenses, you either get big plays or big turnovers. While i want us utilzing all our reiceiving weapons, I dont wanna get pass crazy and have a tremendous turnover rate. by the way good to see someone else is up as late as I am, I was begininng to think i was the only late night BBVer
I voted no as well
I just think were way too conservative for the personnel we have. And I do think given the chance Eli could be in the conversation for that elite level.
I guess I’m just tired of us playin a style of football at the end of the game that always leaves the opponents in the game until the end.
I want to see a killer’s instinct… when we got them beat, it’s the time to beat them senseless rather than being content to hang on to a lead and eek out a win.
This team is built to score a lot of points, kinda like a Ferrari is built to drive fast, but if Grandpa Coughlin decides to obey the speed limit, then why did they buy (draft) a Ferrari (high powered offensive players)
for me it goes back to creativity
and Oline protection.
I honestly think we’ve had the same mentality on Offense since Gilbride’s arrival….usually when we throw the ball its’ a 5 or 7 step drop….in ‘07 and ’08 our Oline IMO was one of the best in football so they could deal with protecting Eli for so long….I’m afraid those days may be gone.
So yeah, i want to see the TE, HBack, RB more involved in the running game….I wouldn’t mind seeing SOME 4 WR sets, heck maybe even some trickery….but I don’t think we should increase the amount the frequency that we are taking to the air.
And that mean, that if we’re up 3 w/ the ball and 2 minutes left….NO, don’t run the ball 3 straight times….but don’t throw it 3 straight times either in an effort to “bury” your opponent.
"Throw the damn ball to Kevin Boss" - Andiamo708
idiot...more involved in the PASSING game
not running game
"Throw the damn ball to Kevin Boss" - Andiamo708
By no means
Am I saying don’t run the ball. With Bradshaw we have a home run threat on the ground that defenses have to account for. One thing that I think is clear is that we don’t have an every-down back on our roster. Bradshaw is stronger than he looks, but it just doesn’t seem likely that he can handle a full load of carries.
In terms of our O-line that’s a great point. Are they built better for pass or run blocking? Of course it’s run blocking, but I would say that a guy like Beatty (from what I’ve heard) is probably better in the long term for pass protection. All that aside, Eli passed a lot last year and despite the line not playing up to their standards, he didn’t get sacked ALL that much.
Defense is another thing. I get that giving our D time to rest is important, but at the same time, we need to play to our strengths. If Osi sucks at run support and is a good pass rusher, get the lead early and let him pin his ears back while they pass to try and catch up. We have playmakers in the secondary too (Rolle, KP and TT). I’m not saying I don’t see problems with my argument. I just thing that our personnel suit this change.
i wanted to reply to you all day but I needed to set aside some time to think clearly, and that wasn't happenin' at work.
First of all, we really kinda don’t know what this Defense will do….and it’s clear that one unit’s performance effects the other unit. I.E. if our Defense sucks this year than we’re just going to have to take to the air….and I think that’s a big reason why you saw our pass ratio go up last year.
Speaking of Run/Pass ratio I was trying to gather as much info as possible (I’m sure someone could probably find the stats but I’m just using google).
2006: Pass 53% / Run 47%
2007: Couldn’t find ‘em
2008: Couldn’t find them, but I found an article that had us ranked in the top 12 in terms of Run . That year we still threw the ball more than we ran it, so it was probably 52 pass? (I’ll link to the article)
2009: Pass 58% / Run 41% (kneel down 1%)
Teams that are throwing the ball at or above 60% usually consist of INDY, NO, ARZ, DET, and sometimes PHILLY and DEN. So right there you got Peyton, Brees, Warner, and the worst team in football who simply has to throw the ball.
Again, not taking anything away from Eli but i do not put him in the same category as those guys.
I really think your post makes great sense because while I think Giants fans appreciate our Offense, we’re always kinda left wanting more….plus there are those games like Den / Philly when we just get blanked and your left with this blank stare, like WTF just happened?!?!
I think we can turn into a more dynamic offense, and a more successful offense w/out turning into a Indy, NO, ARZ, etc….or having to throw the ball 60% of the time. You look at what Parcells and Sparano get outta their guys down in Miami, and they are extremely balanced, but on Offense, they use ALL they’re tools, nothing goes to waste…..spread it around and very creative. We don’t have to be like that….but we could utilize the players better.
I just feel like this is all going back to may first post about A) Drafting B) Game Planning…..We got the horses! But we don’t have the strategy behind it….
Here’s that article i spoke about btw, sorry, it’s an eagles article….lol and remember this was just talking about ’08
http://www.philadelphiaeagles.com/news/Story.asp?story_id=17040
"Throw the damn ball to Kevin Boss" - Andiamo708
Does the run set up the pass or does the pass set up the run?
Usually the Giants O has gone by the method of the run sets up the pass. But as this post states, times are a-changing and I say that we will see a revival of the running game, but only because teams will be so worried about covering all of our recieving threats that they arent paying the proper amount of respect and attention that they should be to our running game. This will give BJ and AB the oppertunites they need to put up 1000 yard seasons
'You play to win the game.'
Do what you have to do within the rules to win the game. If circumstances call for running the ball then run. If circumstances call for throwing the ball then throw. If circumstances call for milking the clock then milk the clock. KG has a long history in the NFL but his management of offensive strategy leaves a lot to be desired. I think that a large prat of the Giants problem with regard to staying on the field is the limited amount of plays that the offense runs. At times, it seems as if the opposing defensive knows the play that we are runing before the snap takes place.
Jacobs and Bradshaw are both coming off of surgery and if my memory serves me correctly so is Brown so we really don’t know what to expect with them this coming season. It may be very well that we will have to put the ball in the air more then we may want to. The bright side is we have a receiving corp who have the talent and ability who can handle this responsibilty if they just stay focused.
One major difference between defensive of old and the presnt defense is the size of the players. Our current defense consists of a small small players who, when pitted against a big offense, tend to get thrown around. Since 07 many of the vets who are still here have sustained injuries that have diminshed thier performance to some degree and they have not been the same since. We have added new personnel but players like Boley for example, although good, can not do it alone. I don’t expected much form this team this year. The current roster will need some time to gel and this may interfere with thier level production but I think we will be contender nevertheless.
Good post.
A game of Chess is like a sword fight....you must think first....before you move.
by LoNJDTechnology on Jul 30, 2010 9:45 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
I think the run sets up the pass
Eli and the recieving corps were better than expected last year, but if Jacobs and Bradshaw are 100% or close we gotta go with the run. We obtain more possession, get their defense tired pounding the ball and keep our defense fresh with all the pass rushers we have.
Remember the Monday night game last year against the Redskins? That first half might have been the greatest half I’ve ever seen as far as offensive efficency. We established the run and mixed in some short passes and dominated possesion.
Giants need to run the ball.
The last thing this team should do is become completely pass happy.
Manning is at his best with play action passing. The Giants offense is at it’s best when teams have to honor the run.
If the offensive line can establish itself this year (something it didn’t last year) and the RBs stop pretending to be Barry Sanders and just hit the holes, I would expect a bounce back in the rushing attack without losing the passing game.
The passing game is a strength, but...
The only thing I would add is that, more than most other teams, the Giants need to be able to lean on their running game at times. We all know the conditions at the Meadowlands, and although the new stadium could produce new winds, there are usually 2-3 home games a year where you just can’t pass the ball with that much consistency. In those games, you gotta take the boring approach and pound out 40-45 runs instead. I agree that the strength on offense seems to be the quarterback and the talented receivers, but every team needs a strong running game, and I’d argue that few teams need it more than those playing in the Meadowlands in December.
It's just as much the weather
You can run the ball just as easily in good weather, but you can’t throw it as well when it’s 18 degrees and the wind is whipping around the stadium. I agree that they’re at their best when the run predicates the pass, but don’t overlook the weather factor. It happens every single season, there are always the games that are shrunken down by the wind conditions, and all your left with is the run game and short passing.
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