Giants By The Numbers: 10 is for ...
by Ed Valentine on May 3, 2010 7:00 AM EDT
in New York Giants By The Numbers
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PrintBrad Van Pelt. Or Eli Manning. Or maybe even Fran Tarkenton.
Finally. A uniform number with a little juice. And one worthy of a little debate over who is actually the best New York Giant who has ever won it.
I am going to let you guys decide this one. I will, however, make the case for each player. Follow the jump for that.
To voice your opinion vote in the poll and let us know who you think is the most memorable No. 10 in the history of the franchise.
The case for Eli
He is a Super Bowl winning, franchise quarterback in the prime years of his career. And it looks like he is still getting better. Eli set career highs in passing yards (4,021), completion percentage (62.3) and quarterback rating (93.1) in 2009.
Phil Simms is commonly considered the best quarterback in Giants' franchise history. Eli, however, appears well on his way to eclipsing Simms at the top of that list.
My guess is he is the favorite here. Partially because he deserves it, and partially because he has the demographics in his favor.
The case for Van Pelt
Van Pelt had the misfortune of being the best player during a horrible period of Giants' football. He was with the team from 1973-83, and made five Pro Bowl appearances during that time. Until Lawrence Taylor came along, Van Pelt might have been the best outside linebacker in Giants' history. The Giants only had one winning season while Van Pelt was with the team -- Taylor's rookie year of 1981.
In a Feb. 2009 story about his death at age 57, I found a great tidbit about how Van Pelt came to wear the No. 10 -- an unusual one for a linebacker.
Van Pelt wore No. 10 in college and then with the Giants, although that was not a number linebackers were supposed to wear.
"They were supposed to give me a number in the 50s or 90s," he said. But I was also a backup kicker in college, which I also was my rookie year with the Giants.
"They said, 'the league might give us a problem, but we'll give it to you as a kicker that happens to play linebacker.' It helped my career. I started to get to be a better linebacker and I started getting noticed a little more with that number. They couldn't forget it. 'Ten' just doesn't belong out there on defense. It was a lucky number for me."
Is he the best 10 in Giants' history? That is up to you to decide.
via gothamist.com
The case for Tarkenton
Well, first and foremost he is the only Hall of Famer in the group. Tarkenton made the Pro Bowl four straight seasons with the Giants, from 1967-70.
The first problem with Tarkenton's candidacy here is that he played just five of his 18 professional seasons in New York. And the Giants had a winning record just once in those years.
Tarkenton is better known for his 13 seasons in Minnesota, where he did lots of great things despite losing four Super Bowls. His 47,003 passing yards is still sixth on the all-time list, and he is eighth in passes completed.
We won't even talk about 'infomercial Fran.'
A note about the number 10
I had forgotten until I saw it in a release from the Giants the other day, but just-retired punter Jeff Feagles had the number when Manning came to the Giants. To get the number from Feagles, Eli ended up footing the bill for a Florida vacation for Feagles and his family.
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hmmm
I will go with Brad then Eli for now ! It will end up Eli…but I remember those yrs b4 Tuna…Brad V came to play ..and yes up until 8:58:29 AM he was the best olb we ever had imo !
Regroup refocus..retool...
by Mr.Williams on May 3, 2010 8:59 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
That should be L.T
Not some time stamp
Regroup refocus..retool...
by Mr.Williams on May 3, 2010 9:00 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
lol
I was wondering what happened at 8:58:29 AM that that he was no longer the best OLB
2009 Did Not Happen
Yeah, 8:58:29 AM was a hell of player.Hall of Fame material indeed.
:-)
Creed: (Play well+Win=Praise) (Play Well+Lose=Praise) (Play Lousy+Win=Criticism) (Play lousy+Lose & Bandwagon Jumpers=Off with thier heads!)
by LoNJDTechnology on May 3, 2010 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions
I think at present
Tarkenton and Van Pelt would be in the lead, but by the end of his career Eli will be the best.
Tarkenton
The Giants routinely sucked when I was growing up. And so Tarkenton took the brunt of the criticism as the QB when he was here in NY. But I always thought he was a great QB on a lousy team. I think when the Jets took over NY after 69’ the brass went into panic mode and made a very bad trade. And he sort of proved that by winning in Minny when he had good players around him. His scrambling and ability to turn broken plays into big plays was fun to watch. I actually might take him over Eli. But it’s different era’s, different history, and so Eli has to get the vote. For those born too late to have seen him in his prime in NY, it’s closer than you think between these two QB’s as far as talent IMO.
Brad was a great player too. Four Pro bowls is not too shabby. Very sad he died as young as he did last year. Rest in Peace Brad.
Van Pelt
The Giants routinely sucked when I was growing up, and the one player who routinely turned up was BVP. He had the attitude (and hint of craziness in his eyes) necessary to be a Giants LB. And, if memory serves, he played all his snaps with the NYG.
Calling Tarkenton the best Giant would be like calling Gretzky the best Ranger. His real glory was elsewhere.
Eli has eclipsed Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson as being the winning QB in a Super Bowl where the defense won the game, but Eli had to come through in a way Dilfer and Johnson did not. Props for that. Too early to give him love for a career though.
I think of Van Pelt bleeding Giant Blue, I don’t get that vibe from Eli. Yet.
That's how I see it
Van Pelt as #1 with Eli just not having an entire career to match it. And Fran shouldn’t even be considered.
I think that 10 years from now ...
Eli will likely be viewed as the 2nd greatest Giant … ever. (after LT of course)
But at this point in time, looking at these three # 10’s, you just can’t underestimate what Tarkenton meant to the Giants during some of those “Wilderness Years”. Most Sundays, he was the only reason that we had any reason to hope. I remember my parents having to “break it to me” one Friday that he had a 104 degree temperature and may not play that Sunday. He did, and made a brilliant goal line audible for a quarterback draw to beat the Falcons. No one has ever meant more to his team than Tark during those bleak years.
As I expected there is a lot of age prejudice working here.
I urge all of you to check out Van Pelt’s stats here.
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/V/VanPBr01.htm
Twenty interceptions! Count em…twenty! And as I watched him play on those losing teams I noticed he never once let down no matter what the score was. They don’t have a stat for it but he stopped more third down plays than anyone I have ever seen…Yes I mean ANYONE…
I’m sure Eli will be remembered well, but frankly he just isn’t in the same league with Brad. I do think he will be remembered as being better than Fran though who knows how good Fran could have been if he had had anyone to help him. Plus Fran’s passes were, shall we say, not pretty.
by giant fan since 57 on May 3, 2010 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions
You know the same thought crossed my mind when I saw the voting results.
Van Pelt. No question!
Creed: (Play well+Win=Praise) (Play Well+Lose=Praise) (Play Lousy+Win=Criticism) (Play lousy+Lose & Bandwagon Jumpers=Off with thier heads!)
by LoNJDTechnology on May 3, 2010 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions
That's normal
though, ’57. You have been around for enough of these votes to know the demographics always favor the recent players.
I know, I know....
But consider this. Eli had very pedestrian stats until 2009 and was very inconsistant. Even in 2007 there was no consensus of opinion that he was one of the best at his position. Van Pelt was as consistant a player as I have ever seen on our team every year he played.. There has never been the kind of debate about his prowess like there has been for Eli, even on this board.
I’ll stick my neck out and say that right now Eli may not even be in the top twenty Giants who ever played. Van Pelt is in my opinion.
by giant fan since 57 on May 3, 2010 7:15 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't think you can really compare an OLB with a QB
an OLB is under much less pressure, and before this year its not like Eli had a ton of help. Our tackles were always average at best in pass protection and the receivers all had huge egos and never really helped Eli. Shockey and Plaxico never worked out with the team and if it the game wasn’t going well they would both always lose focus and stop trying hard and drop passes.
by mclaren_is_the_best on May 3, 2010 7:39 PM EDT up reply actions
And I think if Eli plays until he is 35-36
and all of his years are with the Giants then he would definitely be considered as one of the best Giants ever
by mclaren_is_the_best on May 3, 2010 7:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Fair enough....
But there are physical demands on a linebacker that a QB never has to address. And the defense is not without players who have egos either.
by giant fan since 57 on May 3, 2010 8:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Of course I'm not trying to deny BVP anything
but a cornerback with an ego doesn’t affect how BVP played. A WR with an ego will make Eli look like a bad QB because one of his guys isn’t doing his best to get open.
by mclaren_is_the_best on May 3, 2010 10:15 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree
but I’ve been a fan since the late 60s. I was a huge Tark and BVP fan. At their respective time they were my favorite Giant.
That being said I voted for Eli not because he’s most current. He won a SB. He played exceptionally well in the 07 playoffs. He had a great 2009 season. He’s only in his 6th season.
Tark can’t be considered. He wasn’t a Giant long enough.
BVP was great. A fan favorite. He’s not even the 2nd greatest LB. (LT and Carson).
Don't forget LT had a great cast around him.
I’m not saying Van Pelt is the best linebacker we ever had, but he might just be second. He was a lot more than a fan favorite. It’s a shame he wasn’t just a few years younger when LT came up. What a linebacker crew that would have been!
by giant fan since 57 on May 3, 2010 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Problem with evaluating BVP
Was that his best years were on crummy teams.
Very hard to know exactly how good he was. Recent free agency has shown that many LBs that star on bad teams, go to good teams and play average.
For me it starts with leading winning teams.
Tarkenton
do any of the old timers want to share the story with Tarkenton? I know he was an all-time great QB, but I never really hear too much about his years with the Giants (which, statistically, were pretty darn good, except his last season). Why did the Vikings trade him to the Giants, what did the Giants give up, and why did the Giants trade him back? And how good was he, really?
2009 Did Not Happen
Fran
I was 10 to 15 years old during his time in NY so it’s a little hazy as far as specific plays or stories. I just remember that I always felt he was the most elusive QB in my memory of watching the NFL. And it was crazy because he wasn’t the fastest and obviously at his size the strongest QB. But his feel for the pocket pressure and his ability to duck and turn and change directions was a treat to watch. He was like Houdini back there and drove DL’s absolutely mad. And since the O line sucked, he spent the whole day running around back and forth till he could make a broken play. I actually think those NY years were perfect practice to perfect all the moves he later used in Minny when he needed to make a play.
I think the prevailing wisdom when they traded him was that you couldn’t win with a scrambler as the QB. And I think Minny traded him to us for the same reason, then realized it was a mistake and jumped at the chance of getting him back. But the problem in NY then was not at QB. It was just bad management picking too many bad players for a long time. Everyone loves the Mara family now and they do seem like classy quality people. But the Giants were a badly run organization fro a long time before George Young was hand picked by the Commish to help turn the NY team around. Everyone forgets that now.
Agree with all of the above and the correction below, except to point out that
Tark was a hell of a scrambler before he came to the Giants.
You're right
I just added that in because the poor guy spent four seasons on the run behind a pretty bad O line. But he always had that gift. You’re recollections below filled in some of the gaps in my memory as to the why’s and what’s of the trades. I just remember being heart broken over trading him away. Everyone loved his heart. He was a winner trapped on a losing team and everyone kind of knew it when they made that trade. It was like firing the manager of a bad baseball team. They just had to do something.
good watching for Fran
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d801f9c25/Top-Ten-Mobile-QBs-Fran-Tarkenton
Never assume skill at bouncing a ball makes you smarter than the guy who built the court.
When there's a WILL there's a WAY
I don't remember the details of the trades,
but I know the Giants gave up loads to get him, including as I recall a combination of four # 1 and 2 picks. When he went back to the Vikes, the Vikes gave up a lot as well. Fran was a sensation from the get-go, coming off the bench as a rookie to become the Vikes starting QB. He was traded because the Vikes had a horrible D and had to do something about it. The Giants desparately needed a QB. He went back because the Giants couldn’t win with him either (even though he was a star) and received a bonanza in return for sending him back. To this day, I believe he was by far the most exciting player the Giants ever had (one year he gained more running yards than the NFL’s leading rusher.) Based on #s alone, Eli has yet to match the kind of passing #s Tark put up. I consider Tark a Viking first, not a Giant. I automatically rule him out when considering who the Best Giants QB was. I believe that before Eli retires he’ll get my vote over YA. Not yet though.
The two trades involving Tarkenton pretty much sum up the wilderness years ...
On March 7, 1967, quarterback Fran Tarkenton was traded to the New York Giants for a first and second-round draft choice in 1967, a first-round choice in 1968 and a second-round choice in 1969. With these picks, Minnesota selected Clinton Jones and Bob Grim in 1967, Ron Yary in 1968 and Ed White in 1969. [that’s 3/5 of a killer OL, and Tark played behind a seive for the Giants, hence the constant “running for his life”.]
In 1972 the Vikings traded Norm Snead, Bob Grim, Vince Clements and a 1st-round choice in 1972 and 1973 to the New York Giants to reacquire the popular Tarkenton. [I seem to remember the two #1’s we drafted were Larry Jacobson (a DT that stepped on a glass by a pool, effectively ending his career), and CB Eldrige Small. ’nuff said.]
As for Tark as a Giant, he was great in the mental part of the game, the best scrambler ever, and a very weak arm. He just had no support whatsoever. When they went 9-5 in 1970, just missing the play-offs, Fred Dryer said “without Tarkenton, I don’t think we would have won any games”. True that. I guess they traded him back because they knew they needed so many more players. How good was he really ? The mid-’70s Vikes success would say he was very, very good. HOF good.
I first became a Giants fan in 67
I was 11 years old.
The Giants had no line, no running game, and a crappy defense. The top receiver (Homer Jones) was lightning fast with HUGE hands, but he couldn’t run a route if it was painted on the field in neon.
A typical Giants play sequence went like this
1st down – run up the middle – no yards
2nd down – run up the middle – no yards
3rd down – Tarketon drops back to pass, has to run for his life, and either scrambles for a first down or sees Jones open and heaves the ball to him.
Fran kept the game exciting, but the Giants were such an awful team that they just couldn’t win.
If Eli was on teams as bad as the teams Fran was on, nobody would be singing his praises.
So I had to vote for Fran, just for old time’s sake
You must have seen the same games I did LOL....Alex Webster..one yard and a cloud of dust!
I still think Eli is better than old Tark but you do have a point. Eli would have gotten killed by our old OLine…..Warner and Eli both did in fact in 2004 and 05.
by giant fan since 57 on May 4, 2010 5:10 AM EDT up reply actions
Eli
is and will be the best QB we’ve ever had… I know here come the Simms supporters, the YA tittle supporters, and even a few Tarkenton supporters.
All are good players, all are good arguments… but for my money I’ll take Eli. Plays the best when the game is on the line and elevates to meet the moment.
The biggest win I can remember, and arguably the biggest win in franchise history came with him at QB, we’ve only missed the playoffs once since he took over as the full season starter (hardly his fault) and he’s got a lot of time left on a pretty good team to pull home another title or two.
I vote Eli.
I have to agree that as much as I loved Tittle and Simms Eli is a little better than
they were. However Van Pelt was better at his position than Eli is at his…at least so far. I think Eli has had some growing pains and has been less consistant than Van Pelt was at linebacker. That’s why for now I vote Van Pelt.
by giant fan since 57 on May 3, 2010 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions
It is so hard to say
So many of the players from Tittle’s time would not make any NFL team today. Even among the best talents, I don’t think any were full time athletes, and they certainly didn’t have access to the types of training or rehab facilities that today’s players do.
Even so, I think that if Tittle was playing in today’s league, he would still be a great QB
Simms had a team with a great running game and an incredible defense, but he never had a receiver as good as Toomer, and certainly never a pair like Toomer/Plax
Put Simms on a team with great receivers, and he would have put up great numbers.
I don’t know if it is true, but I had heard that Bill Walsh really wanted Simms, and “settled” for Joe Montana when the Giants took Simms. Simms throwing to Rice in a west coast offense would have torn up the league
I think the story goes
Walsh wanted to take Simms in the 3rd round but since we took him in the 1st he “settled” for Montana.
In the modern times, I guess that is what you call a reach but back then everyone had much different views on the drafting process.
by mclaren_is_the_best on May 3, 2010 11:24 PM EDT up reply actions
I heard 2 different stories about drafting Simms
First of all, many of you think the Giants QBs of the post -Simms era were a pathetic lot. But they looked like all stars compared to the post Tarketon – pre Simms group.
So the Giants, who hadn’t had a QB in almost a decade felt they HAD to draft a QB -
In this story, they REALLY wanted to draft Jack Thompson http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Thompson_(American_football) known as the “throwin Samoan” but Cleveland took him. So, they took Simms in the first round, even though no one else had him anywhere close to that high.
In the other story, Ray Perkins (who had just taken over as coach) was still fit enough to run routes, and worked the potential QBs out by running routes. After working with the major draft prospects, Perkins zeroed in on Simms as the best
Guys like Tittle and Unitas could easily have had better career stats if there had been the kind of passing we have now.
If their recievers had been allowed to run free without contact like today’s are and the current rules of quarterback contact (or lack of it) had been enforced they would have put up numbers as good as any modern quarterback. Just watch some old film of Unitas and Tittle. They were very athletic guys.
The earlier O and D linemen couldn’t play in today’s game because there are a lot of positions today dominated by huge (drug enhanced to a great degree) linemen, but don’t kid yourself. Guys like Paul Warfield, Otis Taylor, and many other receivers and tight ends could still play today. Don’t forget when they crossed the middle Jack Tatum was waiting to take their heads off.
by giant fan since 57 on May 4, 2010 5:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Got to go with BVP, for now.
One of my all-time favorite Giants, he belongs in the HOF. Still, I know that as early as next year perhaps, my vote will go to Eli.
Brian Kelley
Was the fourth guy, right? Didn’t he buy that dancer bar near the stadium after he retired? They had a big mural of that picture on the wall. I remember going into it one day in the off season and seeing LT come in and something small exchanged hands back and forth with a guy sitting at the bar and then he was back out the door. Hmmmmm…………
yup, Brian Kelley
I was at the game where they introduced the “Crunch Bunch” and thanked them for what they meant for Giants football. That also happened to be the same game where the Giants sacked McNabb 13 times. It was a really cool moment, felt like a real transition had occurred (and I said that night I thought the Giants would win the Super Bowl that year – I turned out to be right, though I retracted that belief many times before it happened haha)
2009 Did Not Happen
Dude, email me this Pic.
Creed: (Play well+Win=Praise) (Play Well+Lose=Praise) (Play Lousy+Win=Criticism) (Play lousy+Lose & Bandwagon Jumpers=Off with thier heads!)
by LoNJDTechnology on May 3, 2010 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Fran the Man
I’m a huge Eli fan but fran is the man. And trading him away was the dumbest decision since selling the Babe.
"Freedom is the weapon of the masses."
Nope..Grahams ears were too big..
You didn’t have to put a mike on that guy..He could hear shit across the river on Sundays..They ought to retire that guys helmet.
"When I was a boy and had no sense I got my pecker stuck in an electric fence..Well it curled my hair and tickled my balls, and made me shit in my overalls"
Actually
Tarkenton lost 3 Super Bowls in Minnesota, Joe Kapp lost the other one. My vote goes to Van Pelt though for playing a decade with a bad team.
I voted Eli
for one reason. Super Bowl!
Growing up I was a huge Tarkenton and Van Pelt fan. They were my favorite players. I was disappointed when the Giants traded Tark back to Minny. I loved watching him play.
Van Pelt was our best player before LT. He was great.
eli does have the super bowl mvp
which he benefited from having a really good team that fran and van pelt never had
but he also composed the greatest play in Giants history
I was around for all three of them...
and voted for Eli, though I’ll feel better about it if he has another two decent seasons, in a close contest with Van Pelt. Van Pelt was at the top of his position for a longer time, but his position was one that it was harder to determine ultimate success or failure of the team in. He also played during a dismal part of the franchise’s history. Tarkenton was a magician, and was the reason you watched the team back then, to see how Hudini would escape the rush this week. It was when Tarkenton to Tucker was about the only thing defenses had to fear against the Giants. But Tarkenton’s wizardry seemed to work best between the 20 yard lines, where he was always improvising and exciting, but often stalled out in the final 20 yards. He was an established scrambler, and a human highlight film before he came to the Giants, but on a smaller stage. But Tarkenton’s time in New York was short, and as others have mentioned, he’s much more a Viking than a Giant.
Eli has the ring, four playoff appearances and has been solid for long enough to have effected more Giant outcomes. I’d give him a slight edge over Van Pelt for that, but I’d feel better about it if he has two more decent seasons. I’d also list Eli currently behind both Simms and Y.A. as best Giants quarterback, though two more solid years would move him up there too.
I find it interesting
That many time when listing best Giants QB, YA is listed also.
YA played as many years with the Giants as Tarkenton did.
Of course the whole leading us to 4 championship games in a row makes things completely different, its still sort of interesting to see that difference in opinion there.
Never assume skill at bouncing a ball makes you smarter than the guy who built the court.
When there's a WILL there's a WAY
YA
played ‘61-64, the Giants lost two years in a row to the Packers, then the next year to the Bears, so three chanmpionship games as a Giant (YA already in mid 30’s by the time he reached the Giants)….36 TD’s one season, and one game with 7 TD’s.
When
I was a ’youngin, and was starting to watch the Giants…
I know all that
seems interesting though that 4 years with tark and he isn’t a true giant but YA’s 4 years have his number retired
Never assume skill at bouncing a ball makes you smarter than the guy who built the court.
When there's a WILL there's a WAY
Tark
was here 5 years, good QB, bad team may have something to do with it. Also, don’t
know the Giants had any other “famous” #14? Guess we will find out, eh Ed?
I voted Elei,
But only because I wasnt around for either of the others.
2010 is the year of the Giants!
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