An Interesting Defensive Idea
by RealLT on May 11, 2010 7:28 PM EDT
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PrintSlow week in news, so I thought I'd discuss something I remember seeing a couple weeks back.
It has been well documented both on BBV and in the general media that the reason for the Giant's slipping in the 09-10 season was primarily a lack of heart and effort from the Big Blue Defensive unit. Going in to this offseason, the primary defensive needs included added safety help (which was abysmal in the previous season) and a new MLB to replace the departed Antonio Pierce.
I still contest that our greatest defensive accomplishment this offseason was hiring former Bills defensive coordinator/interim head coach Perry Fewell, a firey, passionate coordinator who milks his players for all they're worth. He made Jairus Byrd a household name with 9 INTs in basically half a season.
Anyways, I recently went back and viewed an NFL.com article with some commentary on a healing KP and an eager Deon Grant, another fantastic move that, along with the signing of ball-hawking Antrel Rolle and drafting Chad Jones, has made our formerly weak safety unit questionably one of the best in the league (barring everyone stays healthy). However, I took special note on the following when Grant was fielding questions about his playing time:
The coaches have told Grant that he'll see plenty of field time.
New defensive coordinator Perry Fewell likes to use three safeties simultaneously in his modified Tampa-2 system. At worst, the man with 26 career interceptions (three last year) would help fellow free-agent pickup Rolle cover the deep middle while Phillips, a guided missile when healthy, would walk up as a hybrid linebacker in run support.
For those that don't know, Grant hasn't missed a game since his rookie year, and has 144 consecutive starts (the NFLs fifth longest starting streak among active players).
While this idea is definitely not a replacement for our base defense, the idea of having three ball-hawking safeties in for passing downs under the tutelage of Fewell has me practically drooling all over my keyboard. This would make for a great defense against many of our pass happy division mates (Eagles come to mind) and use the talent we have in the most effective way.
This also helps alleviate our MLB woes somewhat if this defense is implemented (i.e could even switch Bomar from MLB to DT).
Thoughts?
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3 safety packages
lend themselves well to full zones, which is fine, and I think it’s great to get a guy down underneath who can move well in an area- something I’m obviously a proponent of since I was a big supporter of any LB who could cover well. The only drawback for me to have 3 safety-type guys on-field is that it tips your hand a little, so you gotta mix it up. I’m sure Fewell will do just that.
As long as he shows some diversity in what we do- personnel packages, blitzes and stunts (and please throw me some combo coverage) I think against the pass they can be solid, though the underneath zone still frightens me a bit. But I have no doubt that against the run they will be above average.
also, good topic RealLT
forgot to mention that
Bomar to DT?
I don’t understand your last comment. Isn’t Bomar our third string QB?
I am optimistic about our defense for these reasons:
1. Fewell knows what he’s doing and he will motivate the D:
2. JPP and Joseph will upgrade the line, Tuck , Osi and Canty will recover from their injuries, Better pass rush, better run D, less pressure on the LBs, DBs.
3. As you point out, the safety position has been upgraded bigtime. Good point!
Dont expect too much out of JPP in year one...
if fans expect too much your just setting him up to fail
by Ahmad Bradshaw on May 11, 2010 8:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Blowouts
should be the only time we see him. He’s like the gartrell johnson of D-Linemen right now.
You play to win the game!
by Simms-McConkey on May 12, 2010 8:33 AM EDT up reply actions
absolutely true
sorry, didn’t mean to compare potential, just how I expect to see him used under coughlin’s M.O.
You play to win the game!
by Simms-McConkey on May 13, 2010 8:40 AM EDT up reply actions
I think the Bomar thing is a running joke
cuz some one, for real, thought Bomar was a RB or a fast QB capable of running the wildcat. Which he is neither.
Just keep winning
by FreeBradshaw on May 11, 2010 9:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I want Bomar returning kickoffs.
You play to win the game!
by Simms-McConkey on May 12, 2010 8:33 AM EDT up reply actions
haha i started laughing as soon as i read that
and was HOPING you were joking.. good thing you were lol
Ike Davis = Albert Pujols
by Plaxico Burress on May 12, 2010 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions
I would definitely prefer Bomar over Cofield at DT
Goff or Dillard? That is the question.
by I_Formation27 on May 12, 2010 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Why'd we waste a pick on JPP?
Bomar could have played the spot!
Against all odds, against all circumstance were you don't have a shot, you succeed
-Michael Strahan
All you hear about is the past, the past... the past is the !@#$ing past, this is the present.
THIS IS TEMPORARY! A CHAMPIONSHIP IS PERMANENT
-Same as above
JPP is this year's Ramses Barden?
Will the Giants develop JPP slowly? I don’t expect him to "start, " but I hope he’s in the rotation for DE.
no
they didnt spend a first round pick on a guy who will ride the pine all year long, he definatly will rotate in our DL
betcha he sees less snaps than every other DL on the roster except maybe Tollefson
we’ll have to see who makes the final cut.
You play to win the game!
by Simms-McConkey on May 12, 2010 8:34 AM EDT up reply actions
yep!
Unless Bernard does something terribly stupid
You play to win the game!
by Simms-McConkey on May 13, 2010 8:39 AM EDT up reply actions
look at Osi's rookie year
even look at Osi’s 2nd year.
That’s JPP and what you could expect.
Of course there will be the ignorance of calling him a bust cuz he’s not producing…but that’s really all you can expect.
But I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s out there more then anyone would expect. When he actually played this year, he was disruptive. He goes on natural ability that cannot be taught.
One of the biggest reasons the Giants don’t have many high pick busts under Coughlin…is cuz Coughlin and the staff are good teachers.
Just keep winning
by FreeBradshaw on May 12, 2010 9:07 PM EDT up reply actions
+1
But I think he will have more of an impact than Osi, he is way more physical than Osi so i think right there he will have more production, there is nothing finess about Jpp. I totally agree with the Couglin thing, the Giants organization does there homework and know what a player needs and what it will take to get them were they need to be before they even call their names on D day
Peyton May Have The Wins!!
But Eli Will Have The Rings!!!
One thing about that position,
…it seems to be one of the easiest to learn. “See quarterback. Get quarterback.” And physical freaks like that can sometimes have a little early success just on pure youth/strength. So I expect he’ll flash a little this year.
But I still wish we’d traded down.
I left my swagger in my other pants.
on the trade down thing...
if we were all looking at a draft board, and a guy was consistently going #6 over all in said Mock Draft…and said dude fell to us on draft day, would we all not shit a brick and get excited over the pick?
Well..on the Giants mock draft, the only one that counts. JPP was the #6 overall player.
Why trade back when you get a top 10 pick at #15?
Just keep winning
by FreeBradshaw on May 13, 2010 7:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Just a thought.....
Why has Harry Carson’s number not been retired yet. If my memory serves me correctly
all other Giant who are in the Hall of fame have been so honored..Did I miss something somewhere?
You're mistaken
14 Giants players are in the HOF. Of these, seven #s have been retired. A total of eleven #s have been retired, four belonging to non HOFers.
Correction
five numbers of non HOFers have been retired (Flaherty, Simms, Blozis, Morrison, Conerly)
Too bad we didn't have Fewell last year
A scheme like that could’ve let us take advantage of the strengths of the 2 safeties we loved to hate this past year: CC Brown and Aaron Rouse. They’re solid in run support and were probably a lot better at coverage then whoever we had in our nickel package. As long as they’re not asked to go single high, they’re not liabilities. Sheridan, master strategist, didn’t know how to use his personnel.
Of course, now that I think about it, if Rouse/Brown were playing “Rover” essentially, who the hell would play deep? Michael Johnson? Why couldn’t the Giants FO trade for someone? Anyone?
Sheridan, master strategist, didn’t know how to use his personnel.
make sure you wisper (in Sheridan tone) this so you can deny it all later in case it fails
good idea
I think Grant would more likely be the “up” guy. Jones is also a big safety, although I think he needs to work on his strength. What I like about this is that it might be a good idea to let one of the veterans, Grant or Rolle, take charge of the defense, especially since it is unclear if one player will be able to keep the starting job at MLB.
The Cardinals played a full-time, true 4-2-5 with three safeties sometime around 10-15 years ago. It was an interesting system that worked fairly well (remembering that they were still the Cardinals). With so much use of multi-WR sets the SAM is being phased out anyway.
I love the idea of a 4-2-5
with 3 safeties, or even 3 corners with CWeb, TT and Ross.
The question is, who are the 2 LBs there?
I think Boley is in no question. Is the other guy gonna be Sintim or you think Dillard can move in there?
- Mohamed Sanu: A Giant in Two Years-
Kind of old news
Deon Grant even confirmed this last April. Fewell likes to use 3 safeties in some of his packages, therefore they sign Grant. (Shows what they think of Johnson)
"so I thought I'd discuss something I remember seeing a couple weeks back."
Sorry, tried to point out that it was old news (just something I remembered recently).
And yeah, it looks like Johnson may be the odd man out. It is somewhat disappointing, seeing as he has been a pretty big part of our D since he was drafted, and has definitely outperformed his 7th round draft spot.
- Mohamed Sanu: A Giant in Two Years-
Sorry, I skimmed through and I missed that.
Anyway, I don’t even know if Michael Johnson even has special teams value at this point. Maybe they keep him to keep Reese’s draft resume impressive, lol.
I wonder
if they keep an extra safety on the roster this year. If so, maybe Johnson makes it as a back up?
I kinda hope so
he’s still a pretty good safety, and would make a good backup to the 4 we have now (seeing as the practice squad rooks Shareff Reshad (sp) and Vince Anderson might still be a bit raw) as well as a pretty good special teams player. He’s been a consistent starter for us for quite some time, and was somewhat avoided last year seeing as opponent QBs could pick on CC and Rouse with ease.
- Mohamed Sanu: A Giant in Two Years-
Does the name, Jason Whitten come to mind?
The idea of playing three safties, in obvious passing situations, allows the Giants to have a safety covering the tight end. Jason Whitten has been a “Giant Killer” the last few years and this should help to neutralize that situation. The NFC East has some very good tight ends who are talented enough that trying to cover them with a tight end is almost impossible! Perry Fewell realizes this and has developed this system to counteract the problem…he was a great hire!
I want to see
Kenny Phillip go all Mewelde Moore on Jason Witten
You play to win the game!
by Simms-McConkey on May 12, 2010 8:35 AM EDT up reply actions
nope.
possibly more healthy then we’d ever think. Unless he suffers a setback, he’s gonna be on the field right away.
Who knows how he’ll be used, but no he ain’t done.
Just keep winning
by FreeBradshaw on May 12, 2010 9:27 AM EDT up reply actions
Have the Giants come out and said he’s healthy? (And I don’t mean to stir the pot – I hope he is OK). Just asking.
Formerly Bye, Dawk :(
Until Training Camp
The idea is “KP will not play”, but I think that’s more along the lines of the Giants not placing faith in his return until they actually see him play, and not “KP is done for”.
KP says he feels good enough to play, and Rolle is apparently spending time training with him personally and saying that KP can absolutely play. All of this means very little until the kid actually puts on pads again, but it looks good so far.
From Phillips Blog
Written By Kenny Phillips | 03/04/10
I have to say I think my knee is way ahead of schedule. Everything is looking good, from what the doctors say, and I’ll be running by the end of the month. Then I’ll start picking up my rehab a little bit more.
Basically, I feel like I could play tomorrow if I had to. The trainers and doctors have done a real good job of getting me prepared. I miss the game, I can’t wait to get back into it.
You ca
RV on Phillips
“The Giants’ safety was told that returning to training camp is a realistic goal by the team’s medical staff, according to news wire services”.
Link
And he says he feels good and everything is on schedule.
Goff or Dillard? That is the question.
by I_Formation27 on May 12, 2010 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions
By the end of last season teams were using 5 or more DBs on 50% of the defensive snaps
So using 3 safeties is just a variation on this theme. More interesting is that the team changed its approach dramatically in last few seasons.
Prior to drafting Phillips in 2008, Giants tended to get their safeties in the tail end of the draft. A first round pick, a 3rd round pick and a big free agent signing, says that Giants have changed how they value the position.
I for one am pleased by this change.
the game has changed
It’s pass happy now.
All of the rules put in place to protect QB’s and now WR’s have changed the look and flow of the game dramatically.
Safety is the new MLB, and one of teh most important positions on the field, just look at how teams melt down when they lose their starting safety… Pittsburgh, and New York stand out as good teams that just couldn’t compete once that guy was out
Exactly
And the changes in college matter too. Colleges adopt pro style offenses to be able to recruit the best players. So they need faster better covering safeties too. More of those type of guys become available.
Before even if you wanted to find safeties that could cover they weren’t available.
I'm pretty sure I read a comprehensive entry
to the effective of “the game has NOT changed to apss happy.” It was a statistical analysis of pass plays vs. run plays and a bit more in-depth. Pretty sure I’d have been linked to it from here. ANybody with an actual memory want to back me up on this?
You play to win the game!
by Simms-McConkey on May 12, 2010 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm not real good with stats
I’m of the opinion that 95% of all stats are 75% false 83% of the time.
Just feel like stats can be bent to say whatever the person in charge of compiling them wants them to say. It just seems to me (the untrained non-scientific observer) that there is more of an emphasis on the passing game now that I can ever remember.
Watchin 2 of the top Defenses ( Baltimore and Pittsburgh) over the past 5yrs or so I don’t think it’s any coincidence that they are both starting All-Pro calibur Safeties (Reed, Polomalu) I don’t have any analysis to back me on this one just the thought that these guys are more than a little bit responsible for their teams success.
Good line on the %s.
Solid all-around defenses right there.
by Last year in Sec 127 on May 12, 2010 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions
That was probably me
It argued that only the means of passing have changed, not the amount of passing.
Give me a sec, I thought I had it bookmarked…
Against all odds, against all circumstance were you don't have a shot, you succeed
-Michael Strahan
All you hear about is the past, the past... the past is the !@#$ing past, this is the present.
THIS IS TEMPORARY! A CHAMPIONSHIP IS PERMANENT
-Same as above
Pretty much, scoring has stayed the same, and the way scoring has happened has stayed pretty constant over the last 60 years.
Against all odds, against all circumstance were you don't have a shot, you succeed
-Michael Strahan
All you hear about is the past, the past... the past is the !@#$ing past, this is the present.
THIS IS TEMPORARY! A CHAMPIONSHIP IS PERMANENT
-Same as above
That article isn't very convincing
If you want to know if teams are passing more and whether the passing is more effective, you need to check the stats that tell you about that.
Attempts per game are up, and Net yards per attempt are up
So teams are passing more frequently and more effectively.
What they aren’t doing is scoring more. I’m not sure why that would be, but there are a lot of variables to go from scoring to a critique of passing.
conversely, id love to see a 5-2-4 at times too
Like for instance on 3rd and longs, have jpp, tuck, osi, canty, and kiwi(not necessarily in that order) on the line to rush the hell out the qb, boley and Wilkinson, or goff and your ballhawks in the secondary: rolle, KP, Corey and TT, or Ross. That way the qb won’t have time to go thru all his reads, may rush a throw, which may be picked off by us.
It works in my head, maybe it’ll work on the field.
by wilddre22 on May 12, 2010 10:47 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Its hard to go with 5 DL
If the QB sees 4 DBs and knows that his RB is getting singled on a LB with no safety help, its going to be a really quick play, very hard to get a sack.
Its why the extra safety works so well:
Is he in coverage, playing the run or coming on a blitz.
Giants have accumulated 4 very flexible safeties in Grant, Rolle, Phillips and Jones. I could see 5 DL, with 6 DBs. Line Jones and Phillips up like LBs. By putting a DL on every OL,and having a viable cover guy for every pass catcher forces the offense to go to some from of Max Protect.
i like your idea too
but that’s why i said you could go with my look in a third and long, maybe very long. Say, 11+ yards to go. that way, you would promote the short pass, knowing that 9 times out of 10, you will tackle that back, or that wideout who did a quick button hook, short of the 1st down markers. actually that’s what made the Jets so successful last season, on 3rd and long, it was almost certain they were bringing the house, knowing that the QB would have little to know time, and there only out was the short, containable, pass.
your idea works as well, although i would say to have at least one LB out there, say Boley. but that would then constitute a 5-1-5 look(which i begged BS to employ last season! lol)
even better, go with your idea, then replace one of the down lineman with Sintim, and he would then have the option of dropping back as a true linebacker, or keeping his hand on the ground and unleashing hell.
Again, i hate doing this during the offseason because i get so excited at the possibilities, as we did last year, and then you seem the same base D, uninspired and containable. Please PF, don’t be that way.
The biggest thing I hope Grant brings to the Giants
is an approach to working out and taking care of yourself. He’s spoken about how he is very particular about his body and his workout/diet regimen has kept him healthy all these years. After all the nagging injuries the team went through last year, I hope he shares some of his secrets to his new teammates.
+1
Please put Aaron Ross’ locker right next to Grant’s, hell maybe Grant should just move in with Ross.
Goff or Dillard? That is the question.
by I_Formation27 on May 12, 2010 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions
this was the rap on Canty until last year
You play to win the game!
by Simms-McConkey on May 12, 2010 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions
The 3 safety thing is not really new
Thats what spags ran alot, Grant or Jones will be in the box in the nickle package most likely.
Peyton May Have The Wins!!
But Eli Will Have The Rings!!!
im getting gitty
JPP——TUCK—- KIWI -—- CANTY——-OSI———
/
I
^
\
BOLEY——————-CLINT
T.T—- KENNY— GRANT -——- ROLLE
Huh?? Troy O
Where is Webby, news flash, his paycheck n skill says he never comes off the field
Peyton May Have The Wins!!
But Eli Will Have The Rings!!!
3rd down blitz package
grant dropping down in the box. to guard against the draw…just adding a twist………in all honesty, i dont care how much $ he makes if he plays like he did last year he can see some pine…
Well you must mean
if any of them play like they did last year!!!! and corey is still our best CB dnt get it confused because of last year but i hear 3rd dwn will have some interesting packages but Webby is probably in on all of them, cant see him coming off the field.
Peyton May Have The Wins!!
But Eli Will Have The Rings!!!
I would throw
Linval Joseph in there tho
Have him as the big anchor on the middle, with Tuck and Canty on either side of him. Then you can rotate Osi, Kiwi and JPP in on those outside rush spots.
- Mohamed Sanu: A Giant in Two Years-
Yeah
Incredible amount of possibilities on paper
Peyton May Have The Wins!!
But Eli Will Have The Rings!!!
Bomar lol
The Chef said he’s a solution to our RB depth but he never mentioned anything about DT!
I Am Tobikan Judan
How about a 5-6 on 3rd and long
JPP- Kiwi – Canty- Tuck – Osi
TT – Ross – Web
KP- Jones – Rolle
The corners match up against the WR and the S match up on RB, TE.
Theyre going to have to leave atleast one guy in the block to deal with our 5 blitzers so then well still have backside help with atleast one safety.
We could also use sintim creativly as a OLB, DE hybrid
That is a cool idea, I guess its a 5-0-6 ? haha
You can get some pretty exotic looks with that too by subbing in some of our “tweener” guys like you said on the outside spot. Imagine:
Kiwi/Osi – Canty – Joseph – Tuck – Sintim/JPP
Web – Ross/Jones – TT
Grant – KP – Rolle
- Mohamed Sanu: A Giant in Two Years-
Doesn't our defense always look most dominating in May?
Put all of our great defensive players names up on a dart board and throw 4 darts. then make a defense without those guys. That is the difference between May and September.
by Spider Lockhart on May 12, 2010 11:02 PM EDT reply actions
Except in our case last year
a Drunk threw the Beer pitcher against the dart board and shattered it into little pieces.
Against all odds, against all circumstance were you don't have a shot, you succeed
-Michael Strahan
All you hear about is the past, the past... the past is the !@#$ing past, this is the present.
THIS IS TEMPORARY! A CHAMPIONSHIP IS PERMANENT
-Same as above
Good Point
Great teams manage to overcome injuries. It always seemed like someone was injured for the Pats during their SuperBowl years, but they persevered. Even we did well without Osi the one year. Last year, the combo of injuries and Bill Sheridan was just too much I guess.
It’s also important to realize that we were still middle of the road in the league last year, as we beat up on the bad teams and struggled against the better ones. A few improvements could go a long way to regaining “elite” status on defense.
by ItsNotaToomer on May 13, 2010 9:17 PM EDT up reply actions
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