Maybe drafting C.J. Spiller isn't such a bad idea
by Ed Valentine on Mar 27, 2010 7:00 AM EDT
in New York Giants News
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PrintAt least I have to believe grabbing a running back somewhere in next month's NFL Draft is advisable after a couple of the stories I read on the Inter-Google Friday.
First comes this story via Scouts Inc. which concludes that we have already seen the best of the bruising 265-pound Jacobs.
Jacobs wasn't himself last season. In fact, I am not sure if we will ever see the Jacobs from the aforementioned Super Bowl season. He isn't built for the long haul. Jacobs' greatest asset is his power, which he generates from his tremendous size for the position and his head-to-toe strength. He also used to accelerate very well for such a huge back, and as physics has taught us, force equals mass times acceleration.
The mass and the strength will always be there, but the acceleration has me worried. Even on his healthiest days, Jacobs needs a few steps in the backfield to really get up to speed. With a lack of elusiveness, he is too easy to corral and get to the ground if he doesn't have a head of steam.
Jacobs played with injuries last season, but I contend that he will always have a difficult time staying healthy and maximizing his ability to accelerate and have any bit of elusiveness. He runs very high, has a high center of gravity and is a massive target for his opponent to smack. Of course he initiates an awful lot of contact and never was the most agile of runners. Even for the majority of his college career at Auburn, Jacobs didn't carry the load. I am not so sure that he is equipped to be a 20-plus carries per game running back over the course of a grueling season. I fear we are witnessing the beginning of the end of his career. Backs like him just don't last.
To be honest, there is nothing in that assessment that I can argue with. Once running backs begin to slide backwards, especially large power backs like Jacobs, they rarely regain their top form. He may still have some productive time left, but I doubt the Giants can count on building their running attack around him.
There there was this report from Mike Garafolo about Andre Brown, who is attempting to come back from Achilles Tendon surgery.
I have been saying for months now that this is a devastatingly difficult surgery for a running back to recover from. The difficulty Garafolo had in finding a back who had come back from the surgery illustrates the point.
Here are a couple of other stories that should help keep you away from your 'honey-do' list for a while today.
- The Fifth Down looked at the films from the Giants' 2009 season and came to a stunning conclusion -- the Giants defense was bad.
The Giants were nowhere near as creative or aggressive under new (and since, fired) coordinator Bill Sheridan. As a result, teams figured out how to attack the secondary.
My only question is this -- hey, fellas, did you really need film to figure it out? -
Matt Mosley discusses NFC East draft needs in a recent post. Nothing earth-shattering in what he says about the Giants.
-
So, the Ben Roethlisberger mess is not enough to make you thankful Eli Manning quarterbacks the Giants? You are stubborn and you need more? Ernie Palladino says just look down the road to what is going on these days in Philadelphia with Donovan McNabb.
-
Brian Price boosters, take note. UltimateNYG has an exhaustive study of the dangers of drafting defensive tackles in the first round.
I love Price, but this is definitely food for thought.
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Hmmm.....
“Maybe CJ Spiller isn’t a bad idea”…..sigh…..what took ya so long?
“Dangers of drafting a DT in the first”……yup. Out of likely 1st round DT’s…Suh, McCoy, Price, Odrick and Big Dan Williams….more then one of these guys are gonna stink, for whatever reason. Really wanna push that luck?
Corn Griffen, Barry Cofield and Willie Joseph should tell the Giants…WAIT!!! for the DT.
DWTDD
Free..
There are no guarantees at any position, Dayne was first round bust, Derek Brown was suppose to replace Bavaro, first round bust, Joseph, and how can we forget a 2nd pick of the entire draft in his draft year, Ryan Leaf….Point is, I just listed four different positional types, all first round busts for various reasons….As far as Jacobs goes, he seems really committed from what I have read, he and the Giants need to stop trying to have him run wide, he is very slow starting running laterally, hence stop the damn sweeps. Bradshaw I think will be fine, Spiller is an interesting choice, no debate there.
Personally, I wouldn’t go that route, but…
by Great Gatsby on Mar 27, 2010 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions
Jacobs used to be great at the sweep. It put him out on the edge where he was going one on one with a defensive back who he could easily truck over. It’s harder to truck lineman and linebackers up the middle. What I noticed is that Jacobs ability to run to the outside was taken away from him, not by his own doing. Jacobs outside running has been aweful since Shockey left. Nobody gave him credit for it but Shockey was actually great at sealing the edge and they usually ran Jacobs around Shockey. Boss for all of his virtues in the passing game doesn’t provide anywhere near the blocking that Shockey gave us. Now when Jacobs goes on that sweep he is meeting up with a linebacker or end that wasn’t properly sealed off rather than a small defensive back.
Free's point
Was that Joseph was a first-round, the other guys were picked later. And both of them are better players than WillyJo.
by Ed Valentine on Mar 27, 2010 7:54 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm still not convinced
when it comes to Spiller. I’m just not sure the Giants can go status quo with their backs. Defense is a bigger area of concern, but they probably need to grab a back somewhere along the way.
by Ed Valentine on Mar 27, 2010 7:53 AM EDT up reply actions
I think getting better overall is more of a concern then the defense.
The defense needs to get healthy and a competent Defensive coordinator (notice…that doesn’t include infusing talent…).
I think Fewell’s that, and we got a nice cushy offseason to get healthy. I don’t think they can draft all offense…but I also don’t think that the defense needs this infusion of talent everyone seems to be crying about.
Also…given the “consensus” team needs…MLB, DT, S, OL…..those 4 spots, unless Big Bad Insane Ro McClain falls to #15…are all 2-5th round candidates and possibly better off (especially given this lovely data on all the BUST 1st round DT’s that have graced the draft over the years)
Now I like some of the first round DT, S and OL..and maybe Weatherspoon is our MLB..maybe.
But maybe CJ Spiller is Marshal Faulk?
DWTDD
by FreeBradshaw on Mar 27, 2010 8:07 AM EDT up reply actions
this
I know the consensus is “fix the defense,” but lots of times what happens is teams focus on last years problem without looking ahead, and then next year, “oh crap, our defense is fine, but our running game sucks now”
You have to take a holistic approach. Yes, the defense was the weakest link last year, but the running game wasn’t exactly great, either. If Spiller is available and he’s the best available player, I think you take him. Obviously, if the BPA is a QB or a WR, positions the Giants are loaded at, you pass it up, but with the Rolle signing, the only position that I see as truly “weak” is linebacker, and you can get great LB’s later in the draft. The rest of the positions are borderline, and I think you just have to take the best guy available. Spiller’s gonna be a star, and I’d hate to see the Giants pass him up so they can take Brian Price, who looks like an average at best DT to me (think about this: he’s the THIRD best DT in the draft. When the hell was the last time 3 DT’s went in the top 15. Price just isn’t that great, IMO).
2009 Did Not Happen
they need only look at 2009 as an example.
The WR spot was the consensus “need”. So they draft Nicks, Barden and Beckum.
But while Nicks was excellent and Barden and Becks may be too…..the truth is I dunno how much worse the offense would’ve been with who was on the roster and they didn’t draft any of them.
HAM and Smith were perfectly fine as our WR.
Of course the argument will be “you can get a RB later on”.
Well..you “can get a LB later on too..and a DT, and a S”.
The Giants have never had a player like Spiller. Now, if they get McClain..then Jahvid Best in round 2? Even better!
DWTDD
by FreeBradshaw on Mar 27, 2010 9:37 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree
Spiller promises to be the guy who could make the greatest impact immediately. He also has great character, is smart, and (important to the Giants) is a true team player.
I’ve said it before and I will say it again. We haven’t had a decent screen pass play since Tiki left. Screens and outlet passes to Spiller might just be the thing that puts our offense into the company of the two teams that played in the Super Bowl this year.
by giant fan since 57 on Mar 28, 2010 6:11 AM EDT up reply actions
Faulk could actually run in between the tackles
Spiller’s moto is – if the hole isn’t big enough for a 18 wheeler, I’m bouncing it to the outside.
by mclaren_is_the_best on Mar 27, 2010 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions
This assessment is Horrible!!
1) Jacobs is not slow at all and combined with his power he is even more dangerous, even last year in Dallas on the Giants longest play, he was not caught.
2) his injury last year didnt let him move laterally thats why he he couldnt move side to side on his runs and get to open holes hence the stumbling and leaving extra yards on the field. He was fine as long as he ran straight ahead (reference the Dallas run again) but he couldnt cut at all otherwise the pain wouldve taken him down.
Also Brandon runs too high?? that is complete nonsense, he is not Kevin Boss, Brandon gets his pad level lower for contact than a lot of smaller backs do. The worst assesment ever, he does need to step it up but the O line was horrible too and he still had 800+ yards with a bum knee and a bad line so i dont know what this post is talking about, there is no way we draft spiller, not at all, we have 4/5 RB’s and spiller has had injuries himself not to mention RB’s are easy to find later like we have been doing in the past ( see our starters), I dont even think he will be there but if he is get ready to watch him go bye bye lol, as for the DT thing, question: are Running backs not just as dangerous to draft in round 1?? not to mention any position is a risk in round 1 QB’s, WR’s, DT’s, LB’s, the point is, it is NOT the position it is the person. SMH.
Leader of the Price-McClain Campaign!!
rb is fine
would anyone be upset if Reese took Spiller? Personally, I’d be happy with most picks but DT. Having a back that can catch out of the backfield is crucial- but my confidence that Gilbride would be able to use one like Sean Peyton does… what do you guys think?
Anyway, either of the awesome 1st round LBs, McClain or Weatherspoon, I’d be freaking jump-off-your-couch thrilled. OL or Spiller, I’d be almost as happy.
Gilbride
that, to me, is the only drawback to Spiller. The kid’s gonna be a star, but not if he’s only allowed to run between the tackles. Gilbride does some things well, but creativity is not one of those things, and Spillers a player who invites a lot of creativity.
2009 Did Not Happen
lets see?
how about that?
Gilbride might not have a clue…then again, like I keep saying the Giants have never had a player like this.
I dunno if Gilbride’s had a dude like this in his coaching career either. Its a weapon and a half to have on that offense.
Unless our First round LB or DT comes with a medical degree…I dunno how much more they’d help over a 2nd or 3rd rounder (Cofield helped a lot…4th rounder…)
DWTDD
by FreeBradshaw on Mar 27, 2010 9:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, but Spiller got a 10 on the Wonderlic ...
lowest among all RB’s. Kid can only handle so much “creativity”.
Killdrive might be just his speed …
I think a Harvard Punter who never made the league
was the only one to get something like that on the actual test.
Or maybe….hmmm….
DWTDD
by FreeBradshaw on Mar 27, 2010 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Probably none ...
but even Dan Marino got his jersey number on it … a 13 !!! So, go figure.
Like everything else, it’s a tool, but not THE tool.
Garafolo couldn't find another RB who suffered the injury, period.
Therefore, no RB’s that have recovered from it. I did an exhaustive search and could not find any info either. I would think that MG has better sources than Google or any I can come up with.
It was a freak injury, especially how it happened.
Bleeding Blue since 1962
Jacobs cannot do 20+ carries a game
Healthy or not.
RB by committee is required if the Giants stay with current roster – and it may be better anyway.
My fear is AB. If he cannot be productive at 12-16 carries per game then we have a problem.
BJ, AB and Brown. All coming off injuries. Risky but it is not unrealistic to expect 2 of the 3 to be OK.
Given priorities on D – and I include safety as a high priority- I would opt NOT to pick a RB in an early round and hope they can geta Spiller clone later on. That may be wishful thinking.
I live in MN so I see what Harvin has done for the Vikings and do not underestimate what Spiller may provide.
Round 1? I am holding out for McClain. Still.
by MSP Giant on Mar 27, 2010 9:37 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Hoding -out?
I’m not holding out—I’m praying!! McClian is the need, and if not him Weatherspoon. case closed. this valentine article…..
Superstarzchef
by superstarzchef on Mar 27, 2010 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions
'Spoon
is a definite reach at #15, and not sure if he is a MLB in the NFL?
by Great Gatsby on Mar 27, 2010 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions
Where are you Living???........
Dude….I completely beg to differ…..and the reasons are OBVIOUS. This piece on drafting Spiller was nothing more then filler for a web site. Nothing more. There is NO, I mean NONE as in NON_EXISTENT reason for the GIANTS to be considering Spiller. I like the quiet idea of grabbing Tebow more then this one. Just read Gates’, MSP Giant, Free Bradshws, comments above. Beyond fantasy this idea is plain ludicrous. the draft is set-up to grab future talent that addresses needs on your squad, Not notions of just grabbing whoever seems like a “good player”. If that were true, then every team in the league would be drafting QB’s every year in either the first or second rounds; and that just don’t happen. Put this article in the trash, and find out about what the G-Men REALLY need on draft day. Spiller…..LMFAO…
Superstarzchef
by superstarzchef on Mar 27, 2010 10:01 AM EDT reply actions
?
I dunno that I saw any obvious reasons in any of that to not draft Spiller.
Actually…..I saw a reason FOR drafting Spiller. RB is an immediate need, none of the RB’s on the squad can stay healthy. And Spiller fits a future need too..for the same reason.
Unless you want to give an actual reason for not drafting Spiller? Other then ZOMG!! Defense sucks draft defense draft defense!
DWTDD
by FreeBradshaw on Mar 27, 2010 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions
No need to be nasty, 'chef'
You’re brand new here, and that isn’t the way to make an impression on a community that prides itself on trying to be friendly.
Did I say ‘we have to draft Spiller."? No. I said maybe running back is a bigger need than we have discussed previously.
Look, nobody knows what THE GIANTS actually think. And none of us has the information at our disposal, or the expertise, Jerry Reese does. We’re just talking.
And, if you have paid attention, you know that my preference is for best defensive player available.
by Ed Valentine on Mar 27, 2010 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions
Nasty 'chef?....
Yeah….I’m new on this site, but not too new to the Giants nor the opinions of some “informed” sources. I may be regrettably late in horning in on this topic here; in particular to your opinions, or other similar ones. For that I apologise. Yet I will not apologise for the notion that the idea of grabbing someone as a replacement for what many consider to be one of the NFL’s Best running games, is a vaild use of a desirable 1st round pick. The idea is use the draft to build a base for the future of your team with good, raw talent. We had so much depth on our squad at RB-we traded Grant to GB! Therefore, in areas where the GIANTS are weakest-(which I think ALL GIANTS fans agree; and the Front Office) is on the D side of the ball. Many are ready to run Blackburn, and Tollefeson outta camp. Like Boley is gonna save the GIANTS? We need to focus on our needs, which is where you and I can find common ground. The oppurtunity for the NYG to grab McClain, is real.Many guys have the G-Men picking him, and this is a kid who won the Butkus award, ran a NFL style D, under a disciplined Coach, in the premier College Football division. He averaged nearly 10 tackles per game! And practically carried the Tide to a National Championship. So how is it, that excusing Berry, (who many feel to be THE BEST talent) in this years draft, we float ideas of grabbing a RB—With our #1 pick? If you knew me better, and perhaps one day that may pass—then you may know that I floated the Tebow idea on other NYG’s Fan sites, icluding the offical Site, where I am member, and other sites where I am a memeber. Additionally, I am NOT the only Fan here that thinks nor suggests that the Spiller idea is not a viable “thought”. Thanks Ed, may we continue our "discussions, as I look forward to your valuable input.
Superstarzchef
by superstarzchef on Mar 27, 2010 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Spiller is only an option if McClain's off the board
since you’re “late” to the argument…I’ll let it slide.
DWTDD
by FreeBradshaw on Mar 27, 2010 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Spiller.....
…..and who wrote the headline above? You or Valentine? Who’s your pick if McClains not there? Spiller? Thats how you wanna fix our D? Your arguements make sense on one post, but then shift gears in another. I would admit, begrudegingly, that Price makes more sense the Spiller. But once again, that is only my opinion. I again, admit freely, that I would even consider the sleeper pick of Tebow, before I admit to wanting Spiller. Maybe if I were a writer on BBV I could start my own thread. Then watch how everyones eleses opinions railed my “ideas”, however, as the new guy, I’ll refrain from that notion, and quietly slide back into “observer mode.”
Superstarzchef
by superstarzchef on Mar 27, 2010 10:30 PM EDT up reply actions
oh, I get it
you were in a coma and missed the 2009 season, where the Giants running game ranked 17th in the NFL. They traded Grant 3 years ago, since then they’ve lost Ward, Jacobs has begun slowing down, and Bradshaw has shown he can’t be relied on to stay healthy. The reason someone like Spiller makes sense is b/c he provides the Giants with depth and with a potential game-changing back. If the Giants completely ignore the run game in this draft, then next draft that’s going to be the GLARING WEAKNESS that everyone is harping on, saying “man, I really wish they focused on that last year.”
I agree with you, McClain should and probably will be the Giants ideal choice – but the odds of him being drafted before the Giants pick is pretty good. If the choice is Spiller or Brian Price, I really, really hope the Giants take Spiller (or trade back).
2009 Did Not Happen
oh, I get it ..II
..not me. I won’t be harping on that. I’ll be harping on Gilbride like I have been, and when did AB show us that he can’t be relied upon? McClain is in the GIANTS sights, and the only “good” option. In my opinion, the trick is to figure out if we need to trade to the #10 hole ahead of Denver (#11), who is the only other pick above the GIANTS that may wanna grab him. If that’s the case we need to trade up to #10 (Jack) and then we can offer them (again begrudegingly-a WR or two-if the 2nd is Moss). Then we have a REAL shot at not hoping for McClain, but GETTING McClain. The GIANTS have an early second round pick (14th-46th overall) to worry about the “other needs”. A 5’ 11" RB outta Clemson may still be there. The guy who won the 2009 Butkus award surely won’t.
Superstarzchef
by superstarzchef on Mar 27, 2010 10:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree that I want McClain
and I’ve said all offseason I wouldn’t be opposed to the Giants trading up for him. But they’ve never done that since Reese took over, so I don’t know that they’re gonna start now. I’m operating under the assumption that they’re picking at 15, and there’s a really good chance he won’t be there.
And, NO WAY is Spiller still available in the 2nd round.
2009 Did Not Happen
Gimme
Tebow at #15, that would be “desireable pick” I guess, not!
by Great Gatsby on Mar 28, 2010 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions
Remember this
I favor defense over offense with the pick, and McClain if he is there. All I’m trying to do here is foster discussion. And hopefully, friendly discussion.
If you believe Jacobs will never be the Brandon of old you can make an argument for a running back. That’s all I’m saying here.
by Ed Valentine on Mar 27, 2010 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Chef, it's not your opinion or your position
It’s the fact that your first post on here comes off way obnoxious. We bump heads here, but we try to remain respectful. Your post isn’t.
Welcome to the board, just try and keep the heat down in comments and not be insulting.
Bleeding Blue since 1962
Yeah Chef!
you’ve gotta have a good 20 comments under your belt before you can turn into an obnoxious ass!!!
hehe i kid, i kid…..
seriously tho, we should keep in mind that ok, lets say Big Boy is on the downslide; as you know i’m not in that camp via 1 bad season, but there is enough historical evidence to back that position up – we should remember that we still have 2 VERY young backs behind Big Boy. ABrown is only in his second season and ABrad is what? 24? i think sometimes we forget how young he is because he’s already in his 3rd or 4th season.
i know the rebutt here, there injury prone. Is that really the case? Before this season ABrad wasn’t used enough to be considered injury prone. it was more earth and fire, then wind. this year, yes he had a bad time with his feet, but that doesn’t mean it will be a chronic thing that will follow him his whole career. it could’ve been a fluke.
And ABrown, i think he needs to have 2 full seasons before we can call him injury prone, or having a chronic achilles injury. it may not resurface until his 8th season in the league. only time will tell.
once again, y’all know i’m not for the Spiller drafting. watching his stuff on youtube, he reminds me alot of Reggie Bush – able to beat anyone to the corner and outrun you once he gets there. i didn’t see alot of up the middle runs. and we all know that defenses are far faster in the NFL, and that speed of his gets negated a little. but i’m not well enough versed on college to make a real informed opinion. i’ll just say this – IN REESE I TRUST, and he’ll make the right decision.
This is what
makes BBV a great place. Love the fact that you guys are ‘policing’ yourselves.
by Ed Valentine on Mar 28, 2010 9:43 AM EDT up reply actions
SPILLER IS JUST A THIRD DOWN BACK/ KICKOFF/ PUNT RETURNER
Listen most running backs only have 4 or 5 great seasons to play good or great, running backs don’t last very long in the nfl. This is why teams now use 2 or 3 running backs in games and need them for injuries, because running backs take just as much punishment as quarterbacks, maybe more considering they carry the ball 20 or 30 times a game. I personally don’t like to draft running backs in the first round because if you have a good or great offensive line any running back looks good or can get you 3 or 4 yards a game. The giants need defense and should draft a running back in the later rounds, someone like ben tate.
Better.....
Here’s a guy with a real idea….
Superstarzchef
by superstarzchef on Mar 27, 2010 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions
Which is exactly why Jacobs and Bradshaw should still be on the roster
so Spiller’s getting 10-15 carries..maybe more as the season goes along (or when Jacobs and Bradshaw get hurt….)
Jake and AB can split the remaining carries…until they get hurt (which using my crystal ball, will be the first Dallas game for Jacobs, and week 5, during practice, for Bradshaw)
DWTDD
by FreeBradshaw on Mar 27, 2010 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Free..
How do you see Spiller getting 10-15 carries? I don’t see that happening, you are looking at about 30 carries between Jacobs/Bradshaw (again barring more injury).
by Great Gatsby on Mar 27, 2010 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions
I'd say Jake and Spiller 10-15 apiece
with Bradshaw at 8-10 himself
I’d say 30-35 carries between them all. Remember, the # of carries the Giants had this year was less cuz they weren’t killing the clock in the fourth Q. That happens when you suck and have to come back all the time.
So if they are good, I’d think Eli’s more at the 480 range of pass attempts. I’d look at the rushing attempts more like in between the 2008 and 2009 versions.
I think we’ll be running less then 2008..cuz Eli’s that much better. But I think (hope) we’ll be running more, cuz if we’re running more it means we’re winning more games by icing the clock.
Say 410-420 carries between them all.
DWTDD
by FreeBradshaw on Mar 27, 2010 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions
Damn how did Bradshaw get a downgrade??
two broken feet, damn near 800 yards so you reward him the next year when hes healthy by taking carries away?
Leader of the Price-McClain Campaign!!
he broke those feet
because he took too many caries.
DWTDD
by FreeBradshaw on Mar 28, 2010 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions
RBs
I think that I am (generally) opposed to taking RBs in the first round, because of the ability of most teams to find serviceable RBs later in the draft. Ryan Grant and Pierre Thomas were undrafted; Chester Taylor was a 6th rounder; Brandon Jacobs and Marion Barber were 4th rounders; Ahmad Bradshaw was a 7th rounder; Jamal Charles, Brian Westbrook, and Shonn Greene were 3rd rounders; Michael Turner was a 5th rounder, etc.
There are great RBs to be had in the first round, certainly, but with a good offensive line, you can make lower-round picks into top backs. I am pretty convinced that a mediocre running back who can avoid fumbles will look like a really, really good back with a great offensive line. I’d rather have O-line, if the Giants go with offense…
Spiller has the potential to be much more than serviceable.
Don’t forget he can also return kickoffs and punts to the house. It would be nice to have a guy back there for a change that everyone is affraid to kick to.
by giant fan since 57 on Mar 28, 2010 6:21 AM EDT up reply actions
can we find a RB in the middle rounds? Sure! Lets look at the top rushers in the NFL
Chris Johnson 1st
Steven Jackson 1st
Thomas Jones 1st
Maurice Jones-Drew 2nd
Adrian Peterson 1st
Ray Rice 2nd
Ryan Grant UDFA
Cedric Benson 1st
Jonathan Stewart 1st
Ricky Williams 1st
Frank Gore 3rd
Jamaal Charles 3rd
DeAngelo Williams 1st
Rashard Mendenhall 1st
Other notables!
Michael Turner, 5th. Shonn Greene 3rd, Fred Jackson UDFA
Conclusion….SURE!!, you can find a servicable RB later on…maybe he’s good too.
But you can find a better one in the first.
The Titans have the best run blocking OL in the NFL, they drafted Chris Johnson..boom, 2000 yards.
DWTDD
Any Position
That same logic can be used for any position, any round, see my post above. Better odds than Vegas or AC, nonetheless still a crapshoot.
by Great Gatsby on Mar 27, 2010 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions
haha.
priceless. that was pefect
I believe in the Church of Baseball
by Frank Campagnola on Mar 27, 2010 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions
THIS
thank you for helping dispel that “you can get just as good a player in the later rounds” myth. Sure, it’s possible, just like it’s possible to get Tom Brady in the 6th round. But the chances are MUCH higher with 1st round RB’s, just like every other position.
2009 Did Not Happen
You MAY find a better one in the1st Free but
All those running backs were drafted over a 10yr+ span so RB in the first round really isnt as easy as it may seem just like any other position, the point is we have explosive players when healthy, we have guys that can put up 6 already, no need to go RB so early IMO, also the key to your statement was “BEST RUN BLOCKING OL” not the Chris Johnson part, he is great and my favorite RB in the league, but you put a healthy Bradshaw or mostly any other talented back behind a line like that and thats sorta thing will happen! we dont need spiller to have a great running game or be eplosive, he have guys that havent even been worked into the offensive gameplan yet in Beckum, Barden & Brown so how are we going to get another “Ball Hog”, I think we are fine, there are other backs in later rounds who can achieve even more as long as we have the “BEST RUN BLOCKING OL”. Thats the biggest point, If we have that then even A Derrick Ward and A Brandon Jacobs all of a sudden can both be 1000 yard backs together! Oh wait!! that happened already! and before that no one would have considered them to be “Explosive”
Leader of the Price-McClain Campaign!!
Shanahan
always said give him a good o line and he could have any scrub rb run for 1000.
yeah
hard to argue with that logic
good solid RBs are available later – and sometime one can turn into a star
but Adrian Petersen, Chris Johnson etc etc…you get what you pay for. Want a star? Draft em early.
I guess I just don’t agre that both Jacobs and Bradshaw are injuries waiting to happen. I think, especially of Brown can add a few carries, that this set of RBs can be productive in 2010.
And the OL has a lot to do with it.
What's wrong with better? (feel like that Verizon commercial dude..)
sure, we have a good to potentiall great OL if its healthy.
We can make any RB look good too! Yay!
…what if, we have an elite talent at RB? Someone who can take those gigantic holes the OL opens up and run for 20 yards in about 2 seconds?
Hmmm…..
DWTDD
I wouldnt consider Spiller an Elite RB
maybe Elite KR/PR but i think there are guys just as good at running the ball later in the draft
Leader of the Price-McClain Campaign!!
If they were just as good...they'd be talked about as potential top 10 picks
CJ Spiller is a top 10 pick for a reason. He’s got elite hands, speed, change of direction and has good vision as well.
He’s a “clutch” RB. He makes plays (where is “step up and make big plays” when you need him?)
DWTDD
by FreeBradshaw on Mar 27, 2010 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions
Exactly.
He was called on to carry the whole offense at Clemson. He caught more passes than the receivers did. And did all that in spite of teams being able to key on him every play.
by giant fan since 57 on Mar 28, 2010 6:26 AM EDT up reply actions
Thats not true
Everyone doesnt get considered top ten automatically like that, depends on your school and who Espn likes lol, spiller is very good but to act like he is an annomoly is something I just cant subscribe to
Leader of the Price-McClain Campaign!!
More Verizon monotony....
….I thought we had those two guys. So what if BJ and AB switch? Seems everyone (asides from lambasting me over my thoughts) forgot about THE GLARING NEEDS of the GIANTS. Additionally, we kept Danny Ware. Grant would be our third RB today. Ward wanted Big Money (deservedly so), BJ AND AB both suffered injuries. Kareem suffered an injury. Gilbride forgot about play-action, and lost the running game. The WR’s emerged (and we DRAFTED them) as NFL talent. Rookies got their taste last year; and some believe this next season to be a rebuilding one. So, we need to find another RB for the future? When Defensive help at a crucial position is in short supply around the League. If that wasn’t the case, then when are we reaching out to talk/sign some guys to come in and line up next to Boley? I haven’t heard that Sintim was gaurenteed anything. If so, the idea that we draft either a McClain, or a Weatherspoon addresses a glaring need, and makes the NYG’s competitive this year. So we take a Spiller, squeeze him into 10 carries, and pray that BJ or AB stay happy? Those guys won starting jobs, earned it. Who’s Spiller to come onto the squad and beat out one of those two. DWare has more film time then Spiller, and HE would have been last years 3rd RB, excepting for his season-ending injury.
Look, I’m the first guy to admit I may be “new” to this site. However, I’ve surfed this site more then once in the months prior to joining, I’ve seen some fairly raucous conversations around here, and with that in mind, and the fact that I’ve memberships in bunches other means nothing to you. I joined this site, becasue after following this thread, I felt compelled to contribute. Personally, I’ve no animosity towards anyone, howevr, I’m no rookie by any stretch of the imagination, and I welcome anyone to read any of the 300 posts just on history.giants.com, or on the nfl.com.giants message boards as well. The tone of any opinions are just that. These are opinions, and I do realise, that I’m not JR. However to express some opinions which may be held in contempt by others, esp. and “outsider”, and put headlines like the one printed above is to invite discourse. If you want civil, polite, conversation—post in the ladies section. If you want spirited, manly debate, then put up or shut up. Leave the lunacy of these things to the “Fantasy” thread, and in the “Draft” thread post the solutions we hope the GIANTS try to achieve.
Superstarzchef
by superstarzchef on Mar 27, 2010 10:07 PM EDT up reply actions
RB IS a glaring need….apparently not glaring enough, but its a need.
DWTDD
by FreeBradshaw on Mar 27, 2010 10:20 PM EDT up reply actions
What are the chances that JR picks up Kirk Morrison by giving a 3rd round pick, then we give the bucs our 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th and 3rd of next years for there 3rd overall pick and grab McCoy. Then MLB is filled, DT is filled and you grab a safety in the 2nd round.
I would give all these picks away because we already have a bunch of depth at our positions and as JR says, the players need 3 years to develop which means were still waiting. By doing that, we fill all the MAJOR needs. As far as o-line is concerned, we could groom an undrafted one for the future. In the mean while, slide diehl to guard, plug Beatty to LT, and keep mckenzie at RT. He was rated one of the best tackles this year just so you know. If he gets injured, move diehl to RT and bring seubert back to LG.
by MIKES92 on Mar 27, 2010 10:42 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Chances?
I’d say Kirk Morrison maybe is a 20% chance.
The other thing? Is there anything less then Zero?
DWTDD
by FreeBradshaw on Mar 27, 2010 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions
If we were gonna get Kirk
it wouldve happened already, JR wouldve brought him in already so he can get a jump on Fewell’s new system, I do not want him rather give the guys on the roster a chance.
Leader of the Price-McClain Campaign!!
He is a game changer though dont get me wrong
I just know his name is senseless in the Giants draft discussions but ill play along.
Leader of the Price-McClain Campaign!!
Yea man, Morrison isn't what we need
He’s not as good as some think. Don’t let his amount of tackles fool you. He sucks against the run…even the Raiders know that.
And yes, if Reese wanted him, he would’ve had him already. No thanks.
Inclined to agree
although i’ve gotta admit, there’s something there we’re not seeing with Captain Kirk, that NFL scouts and FO see. because he’s got a low tender for such a stat filler. Add to that that his own fans are ready to part ways….he might be a dime piece chick that is burning down below. something fishy going on, ya underdig?
I don't know if it's that
I believe it hinges more on whether or not they saw Morrison as a real upgrade over Goff. I’m betting that they didn’t, therefore the lack of a move.
Bleeding Blue since 1962
i'm talking about league wide
when the tenders went public, there was a big to do about how little there asking for him, and yet a month later and there isn’t even any rumors out there about him. the eagles are rumored with the Raiders, yet it doesn’t even come close to Kirk, it’s all about Nmandi. i know rumors are just rumors, but with so many sources inside FO’s, you’d think by now one or 2 rumors would be floating out there…just curious to me.
C.J. Spiller is the game-changer the Giants need...
I’m only for this pick if Rolando McClain is gone by the time we select at #15.
Desean Jackson 2 years ago.
Percy Harvin last year (who was also an “injury concern” coming out)
C.J. Spiller this year. We’ve been in dire need of a game-changing, fast as hell PR/KR/RB/WR for years…and Spiller could be that guy.
Let’s do it…if McClain isn’t around. I guarantee those against it will eat their words sooner than later.
Doubt it HAHA
Put your Bank account up!! LMAO JK, but spiller will NOT get drafted by us, we have guys that can be game changers on screens and all the percy harvin stuff already, his name is Mario manningham, dont be fooled his production in college was just as good
Leader of the Price-McClain Campaign!!
I love Super Mario...
But he IS NOT Desean Jackson & Percy Harvin when we’re talking about breakaway speed, “game-changing” & return ability.
Is Mario a solid WR, makes tough catches & even return punts (though he’s too relevant on offense now to be that guy anymore)? Yes…but Spiller can be a different monster, man.
Spiller is a RB...Harvin and HAM are WR
tho..imagine HAM and Spiller?
HAM, Swiss (Smith), Eggs (Nicks)………Skillet!!
DWTDD
by FreeBradshaw on Mar 27, 2010 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions
I know Spiller is an RB
But I’m just talking about his potential abilities on offense & in special teams…like Jackson & Harvin have shown.
Spiller, Manningham, Hicks, Smith would be sick.
I know Jacobs’ best years is behind him…
That would be unstoppable!
Gilbride and TC are going to have to open things up though!
Leader of the Price-McClain Campaign!!
Our screen pass game is non existant.
It’s one of the reasons defenses are able to all out blitz us so successfuly. Screens and outlet passes pnish aggressive blitzes. Bradshaw is a great runner but he doesn’t have great hands and hasn’t executed the screen pass very well.
by giant fan since 57 on Mar 28, 2010 6:31 AM EDT up reply actions
Maan our Screen pass game is non existant because
of the predictability of when we run them not the players running them. Gilbride is very predictable. Question! have you ever been watching a Giants game and been able to know that a screen is coming even before we do it???? I bet more than 75% of real Giants fans would say YES!
Leader of the Price-McClain Campaign!!
When Tiki was here we were just as predictable.
We just executed better and had someone in the backfield who had good hands. I’m not sure how many screens we threw last year but the number was way too low. Jacobs long run after his catch wasn’t a screen either was it?
by giant fan since 57 on Mar 28, 2010 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Umm...
Tiki retired after 06. Gilbride became OC in 07. Not just different players, different play caller AKA different plays. No we were not as predictable when Tiki was here. Gilbride is why we are predictable.
It's been a while since we even tried a screen pass lately.
Even if Gilbride is lacking (and I think he is) it’s not his fault that none of his backs are much of a threat to catch a quick . Jacobs is too clumsy, Bradshaw could but doesn’t have great hands, and Hedgecock….well we all know he can’t catch.
I’m trying to make the case that we need someone from the backfield to bail out Eli when he gets blitzed and doesn’t seem able to punish the defense for rushing so many. Spiller is world class fast, has great hands, uses blocks well and could force a change in the way we are defended.
by giant fan since 57 on Mar 28, 2010 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Just did a quick add up of stats and here is the number of passes to a back (RB or FB) per year:
2006: 77 (Tiki’s last year)
2007: 64
2008: 60 (Ward’s last year)
2009: 46
So yes we dropped off in that category significantly last year. Ward was our best catching RB after TIki left. The other big thing that both Tiki and Ward could do well is block. I’m not sure Spiller brings that to the table which prevents him from being a true 3rd down back. 3rd down back is what I see as our biggest backfield need, which means finding a player that can catch and block. Ward is 5’11" 228lbs, Spiller is 5’11" 195lbs. Who is going to hold up better on the block? From what I’ve seen of Spiller he is afraid of contact which makes him a bad choice on 3rd down. He is a flash player. The kind of back you can only bring out on 1st down or 2nd and short to hope for the homerun while still having the chance to recover if he gets stuffed behind the line of scrimmage. No different than going for the big bomb pass play.
In prior years a blocking back on was critical but the game has changed.....
The elite teams in the NFL are all about the pass.
If you need to be reminded of this watch a replay of this year’s Super Bowl. Third and two is now a passing down, and a guy like Spiller who has real world class speed out of the backfield is the perfect antidote for all those blitzes.
For the record I saw no reluctance from Spiller to block last year, it just wasn’t in the game plan. He is too valuable slipping out of the backfield to try to stop a linebacker. He can find an open spot before a blitzer can catch the quarterback.
by giant fan since 57 on Mar 28, 2010 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Huh?
The pass on 3rd down is exactly why you need a back who can PASS BLOCK. Your RB isn’t blocking on a run play, that would be a FB. I’m not trying to argue that Spiller needs to be a FB here. Your post gets a big “huh?” from me. 3rd down has always been a passing down. That is nothing new. To play on 3rd down a back must be able to first recognize the blitz then stop it. If it’s 3rd and 5 or more and you try to just dump it to your back everytime he is going to get smacked before he gets the 5 yards. The back has to be able to hold off the blitz long enough for a WR or TE to flash open past the marker. Usually a back is the last option as far as routes go on 3rd down because they are going to be catching it behind the marker and probably won’t get the first. The backs first job is to pick up the blitz. Then if the blitz doesn’t come because the team dropped into coverage instead the back slips out to be a last resort if nothing opens up downfield.
I saw reluctance from Spiller to deal with contact. When running the ball he did everything possible to avoid contact including leaving yards on the field. That doesn’t show the mentality needed to go in and knock heads with a linebacker to keep Eli standing long enough to complete the 3rd down pass. Even if he had the mentality he doesn’t have the build. He is a tiny back that would just get stomped on (probably why he avoids so much contact).
My post said "3rd and two" has become a passing down..not just third down.
That’s how much the game has become tilted towards the pass. I’ve been watching the NFL over fifty years and I can assure you that third and two has only recently become a passing down for a lot of teams.
Backs are not the last option in that situation. I’m thinking Marshall Faulk and many others like him.
We’ll just have to agree to disagree about Spiller. Most backs, especially the quickest ones don’t ram into the defenders like Jacobs does. There is a price to pay for needlessly punishing your body. We have discussed that issue regarding Jacobs who may not last another year because of his style of running.
I do agree with you though that Spiller’s durability is an issue.
by giant fan since 57 on Mar 29, 2010 5:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Umm.....
Hufnagel was the OC in 2006, then since he sucked, Gilbride took over. Hufnagel was as predictable as you can get.
I’d take Gilbride over an OC who sucked ass any day.
I dunno about Gilbride being predictable…actually, he’s more towards the complete opposite. I’d kill for Gilbride to run a play that works more then one time in a game. They run a nice screen to Boss..and you never see it again.
Also the problem is like 57 says…he doesn’t really have that RB that you can get predictable with. Jacobs is a power back. Bradshaw is always hurt.
DWTDD
by FreeBradshaw on Mar 28, 2010 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Was Gilbride an upragde over Hufnagel?
Yes. Could the spot be upgraded from Gilbride? Yes. I think you’ll find a lot of folks come down on the side of finding GIlbride predictable. Save for the occasional out of left field no chance in h e double hockey sticks of working play most fans can probably pretty accuratelt predict the upcoming play. If fans can do it, you better believe opposing DCs can easily do it.
1st Round RB's
So we don’t take Weatherspoon if McClain and/or Price are not available…..??…..Spiller is your answer to the GIANTS problems?? You don’t like Hixon for the job, and you SAW the pres-season game against Cleveland ??
Superstarzchef
by superstarzchef on Mar 27, 2010 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions
I was at that game.
But you said it yourself. Pre-season.
I believe in the Church of Baseball
by Frank Campagnola on Mar 27, 2010 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions
+1
If you want more proof, 10 picks last year, made one move, move up 5 picks to draft Barsden, ’nuff said.
Reggie Bush
Every time the talk swings to drafting CJ Spiller all I can think of is Reggie Bush. He sure looked like an unstoppable game breaking force in college. Not so much in the pros. Sure Spiller might be great. But given the gaping holes elsewhere in the line up this would be a colossal waste of a pick. Whatever Jacobs’ status is we have adequate options at running back and there’s no need to use a first round pick on a guy who figures to be a part time player.
by Tucker Fredrickson on Mar 27, 2010 11:29 AM EDT reply actions
If he wasn't paid so much...
I’d kill for Reggie Bush on the Giants!!!..as with anything, talking about a healthy Reggie Bush.
And the Panthers seemed to have no problem spending 2 1st round picks on RB’s.
Its nice to have elite athletes as your RB’s.
DWTDD
by FreeBradshaw on Mar 27, 2010 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions
That is surprising
you would kill for someone who has a career ypc of 4.0?
The Panthers now have gigantic holes on WR, DE and DT because they kept spending 1st rounders on RB’s. Thankfully that beastly run game can easily get them…. 8 wins.
by mclaren_is_the_best on Mar 27, 2010 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions
and surely you jest
in trying to sway me against it talking about Bush’s stats.
Bush opens up a ton in the Saints offense just by being there. You MUST account for him when your scheming your defense.
DWTDD
by FreeBradshaw on Mar 27, 2010 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions
guess what?
You always put a man on the running back no matter if its Reggie Bush or Roger Craig or Brandon Jacobs.
by mclaren_is_the_best on Mar 27, 2010 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes..that.
and if its Reggie Bush….you put 2 on em and you gotta gameplan for em.
…but you knew that!!
DWTDD
by FreeBradshaw on Mar 27, 2010 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions
ok, you say Reggie Bush
I counter with Chris Johnson.
Like free pointed out, Bush is actually underrated – he’s not Barry Sanders, but he’s a really versatile back who’s gone over 1,000 total yards every year he’s been a pro. But, even if you DO think he’s not that good, Chris Johnson is a guy Spiller’s been compared to, and I think it would be hard to argue that he wouldn’t be worth the #15 pick – hell, Johnson would be worth the #1 overall pick.
2009 Did Not Happen
Chris Johnson is a rare example. That is who people are hoping Spiller could be but the chances are he won’t be.
yea, CJ is the best case example for CJ (see what I did there)
but if the worst case people are bringing up is Reggie Bush, well, that’s damn fine by me.
I see him being a Percy Harvin/Reggie Bush/Devin Hester type. Someone who is dynamic in the run game, the passing game, and the return game (which is SO underrated, take a look at the 12 playoff teams and where they ranked in average starting position). He’s not a 30 carry a game guy, but he doesn’t need to be. He can have an impact every single time he touches the ball.
2009 Did Not Happen
A Bushesque player isn't worht a 1st
Sorry, but Reggie Bush is not what keeps the NO offense going. Guys like Pierre Thomas and Mike Bell had a much bigger impact for the Saints than Bush did. This notion that NFL teams have to assign two players to Bush and gameplan special for him is bunk. Every defense always account for every back, Bush gets no extra added attention. Payton’s game planning and playcalling is what keeps defenses off balance, not Bush.
I just can’t jump on board the RB in the 1st round bandwagon. Yes, Jacobs is declining, and you can’t count on Brown, but between those two, Bradshaw, Danny Ware, and Gartrell Johnson, we have options. Another RB in the later rounds would provide any additional depth needed. Also, the Giants should try to shift away from the running game. Let Manning and Smith and Nicks and Ham do their thing and use that first round pick on a bigger need.
I"m with XXII.....
,,,,so I guess we’re in the minority around here….
Superstarzchef.....RABID GIANTS Fan on an Island
by superstarzchef on Mar 28, 2010 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions
Change Jacobs to FB!
I can imagine Jacobs becoming more of a Full Back this season. I consider him as a very good blocker, Jacobs definitely has the upper body strength to become a even better blocker. He does a decent job catching the ball last season (caught a 74 yard long pass). After this season is over, just cut him.
Joe L
I'm actually kind of into this
i think he could be an elite fullback, an actual offensive weapon at the position. His career would also be a lot longer. I mean think of Nicks and Smith lined up on the outside, Ham, Barden or Boss off the line, Ahmad at Rb, and Jacobs at Fb, that’d be pretty hard to game plan against. Any chance of it happening?
Not a good idea
He’s too tall and takes a beating because of it and you think he’ll be effective at a more brutal position?…….scratching my head…….
Bleeding Blue since 1962
Hedgecock is the same size
and knows how to block and probably has as good hands as Jacobs.
If they’re switching anyone from another position to FB, I’d take a look at Beckum. Maybe he’s not a good point of attack blocker, but maybe he can run and knock heads?
They gotta look at ways to get him out there. He’s too good of a pass catcher.
DWTDD
by FreeBradshaw on Mar 27, 2010 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions
i'm really interested to see how they use beckum next season
he’s kind of the afterthought here when we talk about weapons. i think he’s got talent tho.
maybe they can translate his skills to wideout too….he’s tall and got hands. don’t know about his route running and speed. i mean it’s not unheard of, the Saints had Colston line up as a TE his rookie season until they realized his true talent was split out as a receiver.
Hedge has shorter legs and is stockier than Jacobs
Jacobs long legs are both what takes him a few steps to get up to speed AND why everybody has learned how to take him down. That upright running style hasn’t helped him either. BJ is a great pass blocker, picking up the blitz, but I’m not confident he could clear holes like Farmer Boy(when healthy).
Bleeding Blue since 1962
They learned to take him down?? lol, he couldnt move laterally and they knew that
thats the only way you take dwn a 265 lb guy moving that fast not because of some new tackling techinque, it was his injury as for running up right, he only does that when in the clear he actually hits the hole low and also gets low on contact Just ask Laron Landry!!
Leader of the Price-McClain Campaign!!
Brandon....
Blue Gates watched the same games I watched I guess. BJruns low into the hole. he puts his head down and “hits” who ever is there. My feeling is that this kinda worked against him in the 3-n-1’s. Plus DB’s and LB’s learned to ankle tackle him; below the waist tackles. Very few guys squared up on him in a one-on-one situation. Maybe some of you are right—that BJ’s done. I disagree, but that will still have to be witnessed next season. BJ needs to adjust as well, but there is still no other RB around that can punish a D like him.
Superstarzchef
by superstarzchef on Mar 27, 2010 10:52 PM EDT up reply actions
I think that the days of fullbacks like Hedgecock are numbered.
When he is in there it just gives the defense the green light to load up the box.
by giant fan since 57 on Mar 28, 2010 6:35 AM EDT up reply actions
EXACTLY!
Therefore by drafting C.J. Spiller or even providing more carries to Bradshaw/Ware/Brown. I don’t think JR will give up on any of the RB’s yet. (Think about last years WR’s group). My gut feeling is that if Mcclain isn’t availible, Georgia’s Morgan is the player he drafts.
Converting Jacobs to FB, his presence will still be on the field and the nuisance for opposing teams D-coordinators will still exist! He can also still play RB on short gaining plays and “green zone” plays. Also cleaning out Laundry!
Joe L
Play Action
That’s the damn point.. If the defense loads the box throw it over their head for the big play. If they stay back to defend the big play run it down their throat. Heck the Jets this year didn’t even really have the option of the big play and they still got to the AFC championship game. I swear there were games where they could have walked up to the opposing MLB and told him the play and STILL have run the ball effectively.
Agreed and more....
Don’t forget about Jacobs leadership either! Hes always pumping all of the players up during warm-ups. Hes also very good in assiting Eli and O’Hara during the game while scoping out the current D.
My theory is Jacobs was frustration because
1) Sometimes I wonder if teams were concentrating on stopping the run game this year. Hence the superb passing game. (Stated by Bigblue777)
2) Bradshaw and Ware were always injured throughout the season. (FOOTBALL IS A TEAM Sport)
3) While Ward was a GIANT, suppressed Ward’s AND Jacobs weaknesses.
Does anyone disagree? Maybe I’m being too supportive of Jacobs mediocre season. Therefore either he should have more of a Full Back role or just remain the RB. Instead of drafting Spiller, I would rather draft a Offensive line men.
Joe L
I guess I'm looking for Spiller because I don't think we have
the depth we think we do at running back. If Jacobs slumps, Bradshaw gets hurt again, and Ware doesn’t pick up the slack (he hasn’t doen it yet, in my opinion) it would be great to have another playmaker.
I’m not downplaying the need of another Offensive lineman, just considering that Spiller could make our existing line look pretty good.
by giant fan since 57 on Mar 28, 2010 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions
If all that bad comes to be (not saying it can’t) would SPiller really be able to carry the load? Spiller won’t be able to be the feature back in the NFL, he has to be a complimentary back with someone else on the roster to do the grunt work.
I'm not too sure about the need for a grunt.
The game is pass first now, even on third and short. Spiller has already proven he can carry the load, well to be fair only as well as can be done in college. I watched all his games this year and I am convinced he can make the big play on any down any distance. And no he hasn’t been a great blocker but his ability to save Eli by being to quick to cover more than makes up for that, at least in my opinion.
by giant fan since 57 on Mar 28, 2010 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions
You are talking about a guy who had his most carries per game his senior year at around 16 carries per game. Previous seasons he average around 10 carries per game. He hasn’t ever carried a very big load. The other thing with these types of backs is they can’t be counted on to get te yards you need. Yes, tey have the potential to break it out and rip off a big chunk, but they are just as (if not more) likely to get stuffed for zero gain or even a loss. If you just look quickly at these guys stats sheets you think wow this guy average 5.6 yards a carry that’s dependable. If you look closer though and you look at how those yards came you are talking about a few giant runs and a bunch of little to nothing runs. Even with the passion for the pass in the modenr NFL a quality dependable back is still a key to keeping drives going and winning games and championships.
Yes, but he caught 36 passes in 2009 for 1200 yards!
His average yards per catch in 2009 was 14! He also ran for over 1200 years and a yards per carry of 5.6. That sonds like a pretty big load to me and lert’s not forget all the punt and kickoff returns for touchdowns.
by giant fan since 57 on Mar 29, 2010 5:41 AM EDT up reply actions
you can say the same about drafting DE's
many first rounders are huuuuuge busts – going back from 2007 = Gaines Adams, Jamaal Anderson, Jarvis Moss, Anthony Spencer, Chris Long, Vernon Ghlolston, Derrick Harvey, Lawrence Jackson, Tyson Jackson , Aaron Maybin, Larry English, Robert Ayers. All of these players have been big disappointments and now their teams are struggling to get a pass rush going. Does that mean that we should also stay away from Morgan?
by mclaren_is_the_best on Mar 27, 2010 1:03 PM EDT reply actions
I think all it shows is the draft is ALWAYS risky...
regardless of position. I’d certainly argue that the best chances for success are picking from the most elite as defined by their college careers, and in general, first round picks are far better bets for success than 7th round picks or 5th round picks. However, SOME 7th round picks pan out and are better in the pros than those taken ahead of them. But part of it is selective memory too. We all know about and remember the 7th rounder who goes on to make a name for himself, but five years from now, will anyone outside his family remember Stoney Woodson? It’s kind of like fishing, your best chance to land a lunker is in fishing in the pools that have the most of them. The other factor, to stay on that metaphor is that some fishermen are better than others. In this case Reese has been above average, Matt Millan casted on the shore. But every prospect is also a suspect, but the draft remains a preferred way to restock your team over time, and the better fisherman you are, the better you’ll do.
Late round picks....
….don’t always pan out; its only because we remeber the fact that we picked themlate in the draft and they DID work out. None of us can possibly rember who the GIANTS drafted in the 5th, 6th, and 7th rounds 4 years ago (And if you do—Take a Bonus lap !! ). These are the trivia answers to obscure questions. In essence it’s like knowing Phil Simms was taken 7th in the 1st round, and was considered ahead of Joe Montana at one point by Bill Walsh. I mean who remebrs the late round draft choice that got cut? No one. We all MAY remeber the guy that made the team, and became succesful As a late round pick because that is not what normally happens. More evidence of that is the surprise abiltiy of Grant, whom we took late, and then became a solid NFL RB, now with Green Bay.
Superstarzchef
I'm with Cranky50
My post most mirrors his, and Cranky, I’m sorry. But I’m glad we both agree.!!
Superstarzchef
Spiller
seems like a luxury pick for us at this point. He’s obviously a playmaker, and our offense would definitely be more explosive with him in the lineup, but I just don’t see the Giants taking him (or any other RB) in the first round. I know people are gonna say that the RBs we have are too injury-prone, but how many other teams have RBs that can last a whole 16-game season without getting nicked up? It’s just the nature of the position, and that’s why teams are going more quantity over quality with RBs nowadays. The position has become de-valued for the most part. We have five guys on the roster right now (though I expect G. Johnson will get the axe at some point), so adding a 6th RB, in the first round no less…I just don’t see Reese making that move, with all the defensive problems we had last year. I think there will be a few defensive players in the draft even if McClain is gone, and I would expect Reese to go that route instead of adding Spiller. I’d love to have someone of that ability, but I also don’t want Reese to start getting “cute” in the first round and take someone at a position that’s already crowded.
"The good teams don't come in and say 'could have'. They get it done. Alright? It's that simple."
If your concern is about Jacobs not being able to play at the same level Spiller is the wrong tree to be barking up. Spiller in no way replaces what Jacobs brought to the Giants when playing at the top of his game. Your talking about losing a massive beast of a man who ran over people, made defenders scared, and wore down opposing defenses and replacing him with a tiny guy who runs away from all contact and who will not scare or wear down any defense. That just doesn’t work. We already have a very good change of pace back in Bradshaw. If you are looking for a replacement for Jacobs you need to look at guys like Toby Gerhart.
As for Andre Brown, a lot of people bring him up as a reason why our current runningback stable is fine. I disagree. I honestly don’t think he ever makes it back from that injury. If he does and turns out to be a player I’ll be glad to say I was wrong because I thought he had the potential of replacing Ward as the 3rd down back. Right now I really don’t think we have a good 3rd down back, and don’t tell em we should draft Spiller to be a 3rd down back. A lot of people think 3rd down back is all about catching the ball. To me 3rd down back is all about be able to pass block. A guy like Spiller would get blown up if he even dared block a guy (he worked aweful hard to avoid contatc in most times I watched him play).
Spiller vs......
…….bigblue777 arguements make complete sense to me, and I sense to a few others as well. BJ brought that intangible to the O. No doubt S/SS/CB’s had to think about how to tackle that “beast”. teams need what he brings onto the field.
Superstarzchef
by superstarzchef on Mar 27, 2010 10:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Not last year
I was having Ron Dayne flashbacks, as easily as he was going down. Knee or not, he was far from a beast.
by Great Gatsby on Mar 28, 2010 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions
Enough with the Dayne
That’s every big back haters line. There are “busts” of small backs too. Heck Dayne didn’t even do too bad once he went to Denver. Despite his size he didn’t have the play style to be the short yardgae back that the Giants had pegged him as. He did much better as a one cut runner in a zone blocking scheme. That basically just means the Giants messed up that player evaluation. Big dude does not automatically equal short yardage back.
Nobody is saying Jacobs played great last year.
Right, b/c Jacobs has the same bruising running style as Tiki had
wait…
I love Brandon Jacobs, but I really don’t give a darn HOW my running back picks up yards, as long as he’s picking them up. I have a feeling Spiller is going to be better at picking up yards than BJ over the next few years.
2009 Did Not Happen
There is more to it than yards.
There is also a concept of being in control of the game. Tempo, game clock, etc. People get too caught up on stats without thinking about total impact. Two RBs might have a 100 yard game. One did it with 4 25 yard runs. Great those yards helped, but what if what the team needs is to keep the defense rested and control the game. Well in that case the guy who got to 100 with 20 5 yard runs has more value. Best case scenario you have the guy that can do 20 5 yard runs for you (that is what Jacos is supposed ot be) and a second guy that can come in and maybe rip off a big play (that would be Bradshaw). While ideally you have both, if you can only have one the smart team chooses the dependable 20 carries for 5 yards player over the higlight reel wonder. Fans will always clammer for highliht reels and stats, but that isn’t how you win championships.
This is too good not to bump back into view for a little more volley lots of good points by both sides!
I’d take him if Mcclain isn’t there or if he is and JR and TC realize that he really is a 3-4 guy.‘Spoon is fine by me too,but if we re-stock the OL enough and our vet OL’s can do what they were capable of then absolutely I would take Spiller.He’s much more north south ((AKA his game translates to the pro’s)than Reggie Bush.We need a 3 headed backfield and just who would he other heads be?So the need at RB is great and what a weapon this guy is!Could KG use him in a the most creative way?Probably not.But after the MLB’s who makes more sense than Spiller.He’s a matchup nightmare all the time.If he’s on the board and we take Morgan I’ll puke.He’s so ordinary looking.Brandon Graham will have a much better career mark my words.And who says Spiller can’t put together 5 yards to keep a drive going?That is ridiculous.We’ll still need a better grinder to go with him but look what he could do in the pass game.Do we really need to focus on stopping he run as much as we need to make the offense indefensible?The argument that he line makes ordinary RB’s great, goes for MLB and his DT’s so does that mean we need a lineman heavy draft?Then you don’t want RB or MLB.
Just don't pick Morgan in any event
too ordinary looking,he’s got no moves and no speed.And he is not like Justin Tuck so forget that comparison.Brandon Graham would be much better IMHO.He will be a much better pro.Great hand use and feel for leverage.
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