Big Blue View Mailbag
Sunday's loss to the Philadelphia Eagles has generated some interesting contributions to the Big Blue View mailbag. I thought I would share some of them with you, and my reactions to the messages I got. Really, I know this is going backwards and reviewing the Philly game, but these folks took the time to share their opinions and I think the discussion is worthwhile.
Brian, from Guilford, CT. writes:
I've got to tell you, as depressed as I was on Sunday, I see a silver lining. The players, as far as I can see from their quotes, have reacted well -- nobody shirking responsibility for their own actions, defending the rookie punter, and not placing any blame on the coaching staff.
I look at the game, and see that we (actually, "they") dominated the Eagles for 52 minutes. If they focus on that, and learn from the mistakes they made in the last eight minutes (coaching staff, too) maybe, just maybe this will turn out to be a blessing. I've got to say, though, when I did my own calculations of the NFL playoff picture, and figured out the most likely opponent would be the Eagles in Philadelphia, it did not make my heart leap. I can't share your enthusiasm for facing them again. I think I would rather face Atlanta or New Orleans at their domes.
Valentine's View: You guys already know I would be pumped up for another shot at the Eagles. I know it's six wins in a row for Philly, I know about Sunday, I know about the trash-talking from Eagles fans. I just know it is going to be a glorious day when the Eagles fall, and they will fall to Big Blue eventually.
Tom L. has had enough of Tom Coughlin. He writes, in part:
The thing about the Librarian (which is my nickname for TC) is that he allows HIS stubbornness and downright blown out ego (which he calls loyalty) to get the best of the team and the Giant fans.
How many times have we seen it and when is it simply enough? Huffnagel OC, Lewis DC, Sheridan DC and now Quinn ST. Ever since Quinn has been with the G Men I have had to close my eyes and click my ruby red slippers together and make a wish whether it was a punt or return, kickoff of return or field goal. Whether it was Tynes and his constantly missing extra points or field goals when they counted or lick offs to the 30, or our kick and coverage teams and the fiasco that is the deer in the headlights Matt Dodge. Look it’s so frikin evident this kid doesn’t have the mental make-up or edge to play in the largest market in pro football period. What gives TC or for that fact the team the confidence that if they do make the playoffs the deer won’t stare directly BACK into those oncoming high beams again.
Think about it. The best coaches of the TC era had to be hired and brought in by mgmt because the librarian REFUSED to fire HIS original bunch of frickin misfits that Coughlin so adamantly supported and refused to admit were complete debacles as far as asst, coaches. Kill Drive for the Huffnagel., Spags for Lewis, Fewell for Sheridan.
Valentine's View: Rant at Coughlin all you want, but please, when you are done show me a better coach who is currently available. And, please, don't give me Bill Cowher. We have been over my feelings about him a thousand times if we have done it once. TC and Cowher are the same coach, with virtually the same track records and beliefs. If the Giants make the playoffs this year that will be five playoff appearances in six years, with a Super Bowl title tossed in. That is nothing to be sneezed at. Is he perfect? No. He screw up sometimes, he can be loyal to a fault, he is definitely old school in a New Age world. But I am in Coughlin's corner, and I firmly believe his players are, too.
Cody K. writes in to point out an article from Pro Football Talk's Mike Florio more or less lambasting Kevin Gilbride for Sunday's second-half play-calling:
I know that there are some audibles in there as well, so obviously it's not all on him. But c'mon, seriously?? That was one of the entire coaching staff's worst games of this administration. Quinn clearly blew a lot of plays, Fewell stayed in the prevent too long, Coughlin managed as bad a game as I've seen him coach - and, as you can see here, looks like Gilbride had a terrible day as well.
Valentine's View: We have now ventured into the 'Kevin Gilbride Zone,' where I know that around here I am seen, often to a fault, as a defender of Gilbride's. In all honesty, at first blush I did not have a big problem with KG's second-half play calls. I checked around a little and from what I can find out Florio is really imagining his contention that "the team may have no further confidence in Gilbride."
Sunday the Giants passed the ball 39 times and ran it 31, not quite the balance the Giants would like. Fact is, the biggest problem is that they did not run the ball well -- totaling just 100 yards for those 31 attempts -- not that they didn't try.
The Giants first four plays of the second half were running plays, and they netted a total of six yards. The last two of those were negative plays, losing yardage.It is obvious to me, at least, that the Giants WANTED desperately to run the ball but COULD NOT do it successfully.You can't just can't jamming it in there when it isn't working and playing "prevent" offense, basically preventing yourself from getting anything done.
With 3:56 left in the third quarter the Giants got the ball leading 24-10, and passed on four of five plays. At that point, they are trying to generate points, not play prevent offense -- and the run had been unsuccessful.
When they got the ball with 12:34 left in the final quarter for what turned out to be their final scoring drive, they ran the ball on five of seven plays. With 5:28 left and still leading by a touchdown the Giants took possession and again had a seven-play drive, with five runs.
I would argue, overall, that there was really only one instance in the second half where they went to the pass when the run would have been advisable. After taking over with 14:37 to go in the fourth quarter Eli Manning passed for 36 yards to Kevin Boss, then Ahmad Bradshaw ran for five yards. After two incompletions the Giants punted. This is probably the only spot where the Giants would have been better served to have run the ball, at least on second down.
So, really, I see one circumstance in the second half where you can disagree with going to the air. Really, maybe just one play. Hardly enough to justify saying Gilbride called a bad game. Really, from where I sit, the Giants offensive line did a poor job creating holes that would have allowed the Giants to run the ball and control the clock in the second half.
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Florio loses the little credibility he has left
with this
Fewell stayed in the prevent too long,
Fewell DID NOT play prevent defense. I WISH he played prevent defense. He did not.
ATTN BBV: The Giants will not make the playoffs this year. In light of this fact I will now be cheering for the Eagles for the remainder of this season. Please join me. It’s a much better scenario than jut waitning for next year. Go Vick!
\I lost a bet. Please pardon the avatar/signature/
Actually, I said that...
I’m assuming you have read the quotes from guys like Tuck and Cofield who referenced changing schemes in the 4th, they each pointed to the shift in strategy into the 4th when the Giants dropped into a prevent D (vs. the previous 3 quarters when the team attacked). Remember, in the prevent, everyone on the D is on their heels to avoid the deep play (vs. attacking). Many others (ie beat writers, etc.) suggested that the reason for the defensive collapse was the prevent.
Whoops
Thought Florio said it too.
The Giants defense played the opposite of a prevent defense. Celek’s TD came on a safety blitz with defensive linesmen dropping back. Would not have happened if Tuck and Osi were doing what they did best while all 7 other guys were back there.
Vick had his big runs vs the blitz that almost hit home, but almost isn’t good enough.
They DID NOT play prevent if you watch it again (which I understand no one wants to do)
ATTN BBV: The Giants will not make the playoffs this year. In light of this fact I will now be cheering for the Eagles for the remainder of this season. Please join me. It’s a much better scenario than jut waitning for next year. Go Vick!
\I lost a bet. Please pardon the avatar/signature/
Fire zone blitz
Dropping the DEs to take the place of the blitzing DBs. The end result is still to have more guys in coverage than if you just went with a cover 1 or cover 0 blitz. The fire zone is theoretically the “safer” blitz because you send less guys on the attack and put more guys in coverage, so I can see the players seeing at as going “prevent” It works sometimes if you catch the offense off guard and their protection scheme doesn’t account for the different players coming, but I think it was the wrong play to use, especially for this team.
It's not prevent though
yeah it keeps three guys back deep but it’s still blitzing.
ATTN BBV: The Giants will not make the playoffs this year. In light of this fact I will now be cheering for the Eagles for the remainder of this season. Please join me. It’s a much better scenario than jut waitning for next year. Go Vick!
\I lost a bet. Please pardon the avatar/signature/
I think fire zones are good for just about any quarterback other than Vick...
The problem with the firezone against Vick is none of those dropping dlineman are going to be able to catch him (or even get near him, really) unlike just about every other quarterback in the league.
by DJ Farnaquelhe on Dec 21, 2010 11:34 PM EST up reply actions
it's ok, lets stick with Florio saying it
he’s worthless anyway.
Yes, I am a Giants fan. Now that we got that out of the way....
IMPEACH DOLAN!!!!
FREE RORSCHACH44!!!
I understand the frustration..obviously..but
I agree with with Florio lambasting ‘the entire staff’..I disagree the criticism of KG..His game produced 31 points..The O-line they changed killed the running game..and yes Will, they did go to a prevent D..big mistake..
"When I was a boy and I had no sense..I got my pecker caught in an electric fence..Well it curled my hair, tickled my balls and made me shit in my overalls..."
Sort of agree
The Giants O did put up 31 pts, however they simply could not get that huge first down when they needed to. That was a critical aspect of the game.
I'm thinking it may better not to play O'Hara
I wasn’t paying attention that closely but it seemed like he was beat a lot, and the Eagles generated a lot of pressure. I’m curious to see if he starts next week.
Not if he isn't ready..and he isn't..
Again no offense to O’Hara..but that foot was hurting, still hurts and he can’t function without it..
"When I was a boy and I had no sense..I got my pecker caught in an electric fence..Well it curled my hair, tickled my balls and made me shit in my overalls..."
Legit question
I was generally pretty impressed with the Giants’ CB play on Sunday especially Webster on Jackson. Thought A. Ross also showed flashes of when he was a pretty damn good CB on the Jets.
Have the Giants’ played alot of man-to-man coverage like that this year against anyone else besides the Eagles?
Webster had one of his best games of the year
Jamming DeSean Jackson really threw him off his rhythm.
Boys did the same thing last year the last 2 games
Completely talk Jackson out of his game both times. Made him a nonfactor. I was just wondering if Webster has played that well this year because the Giants’ CB are the only team that has really given the Eagles WRs fits this year.
Corey Webster
may just be having a better season than his ’08 campaign….which is saying a lot MG77
although you would never know it because a lot of fans simply can’t appreciate what he does week in and week out….or realize what he’s doing. Honestly, I can’t even explain the reason.
He's got the AIDS.
so they avoid him.
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
Webster...
He is having a great year. So is TT. With all of the stuff being called with the Defense, those guys are left with a lot of 1 on 1. And really they have stepped it up. The Giants secondary this year has been much better. And we need them against the Packers. Big time. Jennings is a monster.
One time, my mom bought me a Plaxico Buress jersey for my birthday. The next season he shot himself in the leg. I'm asking for a DeSean Jackson jersey this year.
I think Ross was a first round pick of the Giants
I don’t think he played on the Jets
by GiantReasons on Dec 21, 2010 8:59 PM EST up reply actions
Thank you
Ross isn’t even the best athlete in his house lol. He’ll never fulfill 1st round material. Least he’s healthy and a capable body out there.
by Anthony Rolon on Dec 21, 2010 9:21 PM EST up reply actions
MG
In what year did Ross play for the Jets? Just wondering….
by Anthony Rolon on Dec 21, 2010 9:19 PM EST up reply actions
A few quick points on the play-calling
Note, all data is pulled directly from here.
Ed, we agree 1005: the drive at 14:37 that you referenced was absurd. Bradshaw (or Jacobs) should have gotten the ball again after getting 5 rushes with the first carry. But look at the drives after that:
drive beginning @ 12:34 in the 4th:
1st and 10 at PHI 47 B.Jacobs left end to PHI 42 for 5 yards (J.Chaney).
2nd and 5 at PHI 42 E.Manning pass short left to K.Boss pushed ob at PHI 27 for 15 yards (J.Chaney).
1st and 10 at PHI 27 B.Jacobs right guard to PHI 22 for 5 yards (K.Coleman).
2nd and 5 at PHI 22 A.Bradshaw left end to PHI 19 for 3 yards (E.Sims).
1st and 10 at PHI 14 B.Jacobs left tackle to PHI 10 for 4 yards (E.Sims).
2nd and 6 at PHI 10 B.Jacobs right guard to PHI 8 for 2 yards (M.Patterson).
3rd and 4 at PHI 8 E.Manning pass short middle to K.Boss for 8 yards, TOUCHDOWN.
That’s 5 rushes for 19 yds, ~3.8 yds/carry.
drive beginning @ 5:28 in the 4th:
1st and 10 at NYG 35 E.Manning pass short left to M.Manningham pushed ob at NYG 47 for 12 yards (D.Patterson).
1st and 10 at NYG 47 A.Bradshaw left tackle to PHI 46 for 7 yards (J.Chaney).
2nd and 3 at PHI 46 A.Bradshaw left tackle to PHI 44 for 2 yards (M.Patterson, T.Cole).
Timeout #1 by PHI at 04:15.
3rd and 1 at PHI 44 (Shotgun) A.Bradshaw right end to PHI 42 for 2 yards (A.Dixon).
Timeout #2 by PHI at 04:02.
1st and 10 at PHI 42 A.Bradshaw left end to PHI 38 for 4 yards (T.Cole).
Timeout #3 by PHI at 03:56.
2nd and 11 at PHI 43 (Shotgun) A.Bradshaw right tackle to PHI 40 for 3 yards (M.Patterson, T.Cole).
3rd and 8 at PHI 40 (Shotgun) E.Manning pass incomplete short left to D.Hagan.
4th and 8 at PHI 40 M.Dodge punts 28 yards to PHI 12, Center-Z.DeOssie, fair catch by J.Maclin.
That’s 5 rushes for 18 yds, ~3.6 yds/carry
drive beginning @ 1:16 in the 4th:
1st and 10 at NYG 36 (Shotgun) E.Manning pass incomplete short left to D.Hagan.
2nd and 10 at NYG 36 (Shotgun) E.Manning pass incomplete deep middle to K.Boss.
3rd and 10 at NYG 36 (Shotgun) E.Manning sacked at NYG 29 for -7 yards (T.Laws).
That’s 0 rushes for 0 yds, 0 yds/carry
So in reality, it’s not entirely fair to suggest that the running game wasn’t working at all. If you just go by the average rushing yards the Giants were ringing up, they could have simply run the ball 3x and achieved a first down. And killed the clock.
All in all, quite a frustrating game.
You've left out Diehl's penalty
That may have forced KGs hand
2nd and 6 way different than 2nd and 11
I felt they didn’t pass enough in 3rd, Phillys D was way over committed to run, expecting Giants to get conservative. It was the time to go for the kill and they called off the dogs.
Ed, you have a blind spot on TC
I’ve been a defender of him, but if they don’t win in Green Bay, I’m done….and you should be too.
He’s supposed to be old-school, discipline, run a tight ship, etc. That’s all great if your team reflects that. Do they? Noooooo. You said it yourself in KWW this past Monday. The team is undisciplined: bad penaties, turnovers, abominable special teams.
The in-game coaching is highly questionable. God, the examples are too many to mention but let’s start with the obvious. The absence of a hands team in inexcusable when: (1) everyone knows that post last Super Bowl, and the Payton onsides to open the second half, the onsides kick is the NFL new flavor; and (2) the opponent is down two touchdowns with seven minutes to go.
Yes he deserves some credit for getting the team into the playoffs, but…..apart from the SB, how exactly has he fared? Terribly. Add to that his abominable records in November and December.
Yes, the Gmen have given us a sustained run of relatively good football. But, how much is that really Coughlin? We’ve had a strong front office who have given him plenty of talent to work with. (They used to say about Pat Riley with the Magic/Kareem Lakers……“all he needs to do is roll out the ball.” While the Gmen are not quite so stacked, you can’t ignore the players he has at his disposal).
I tip my hat to Coughlin’s adjustment in ‘07 for how he managed the team, but all in all, what about his record tells us he’s that valuable? The SB year distorts everything because everything clicked at the right time. Again, kudos for that job. But, aside from that magical run, it seems he’s lost far more big games late in the season than he’s won.
In the final analysis, Ed, I think you may be asking the wrong question. Sometimes it is not the question of getting a “better” coach (after all, when you leave the ranks of people like Bill Walsh, and maybe even Belichek, who really knows in an objective sense who is “better”?). Maybe it is just time for a different coach. A coach with a different means of communication, a different personal style, and greater willingness to hold coaches such as Quinn accountable and fire their ass when they suck (as Quinn does).
I hope they win in GB. Boy do I hope that. But if they don’t, I want the owners on the Monday following the Redskins game to thank TC for his many contributions and to move on.
all fair points
It’s not entirely out of the realm of possibility to suggest that the players are beginning to simply tune out Coughlin. This team, from top to bottom, has a tendency to play sloppy and undisciplined football in critical moments.
Bada Bing Ed
There are alot of points we can discuss but it comes down to…
Is this team disciplined and is TC getting the best from his players? Is he a real leader? Can he rally the troops when the chips are down?
Anyone that can say yes after last Sunday (and some other games this year) is delirious and kidding themselves.
I don’t care about his other skills, he lacks some fundamental coaching abilities.
No, I don’t have a replacement at this time and I am not sure I am knowledgeable enough to argue one.
But something needs to change, the talent is there but the results are not. Period.
All the Giants should play like Mark Bavaro.
Tom Quinn Must Go!
by UnknownJintsFan on Dec 21, 2010 8:04 PM EST up reply actions
exactly
I hear the point about there not being a lot of options out there, but the Coughlin Giants have done this consistently – played sloppy and undisciplined football and faded down the stretch. It’s happened literally every year – even the Super Bowl year we backed into the playoffs. Granted, we turned it on when we needed, and that’s something that most franchises would kill for. Still, you have to wonder if another coach would be getting more out of the talent on this team. Sometimes the devil you know is better than the devil you don’t, but sometimes it isn’t. If the Giants don’t at least get to the divisional round, I think it’s time to seek a new devil.
by long time listener on Dec 21, 2010 8:07 PM EST up reply actions
Let's wait
and see how it plays out. The final chapter of this story has not yet been written. It will be really tough to complain if the Giants get to 10 or 11 wins.
I have never said TC is perfect. Or KG. I just don’t think we have enough information right now because the season isn’t over.
by Ed Valentine on Dec 21, 2010 8:43 PM EST up reply actions
If not
I hear Josh McDaniels is looking for work.
It's a triumph of number crunching over the human spirit...aaaaaand, it’s about time. -- Play-by-Play Announcer, The Simpsons.
by MookieTheCat on Dec 21, 2010 11:26 PM EST up reply actions
HA
So is Wade Phillips and Chilly. Seriously though, the only coaches I like better than TC right now are Bellicek (I know but you gotta give credit to the guy plus every Sunday he looks like he just got out of bed and put that hoodie on. AND it has his initials which I think is funny.), Payton, and Haley for the Chiefs. If you look how Denver is going to be the next several years, it could be a hell of a lot worse for us Giants fans
One time, my mom bought me a Plaxico Buress jersey for my birthday. The next season he shot himself in the leg. I'm asking for a DeSean Jackson jersey this year.
u are right
jairdare i say MCD as OAKLAND KC and SD coach
okay i have cerebral palsy arthris and chronic fatigue as well i have a great life and loveing folks some days are better than other days i got a make-a-wish in 2001 and saw my favorite team the broncos it was the trip of a lifetime i wish everyone couild have gotten to enjoy that with me i know some of u hate the broncos and that okay but i bleed organ and bule for my mnr fans but i bleed orange and blue denver will rise again resident broncos fan for every blog resident broncos for stampede bule thanks shvd98z24 real name jeremy woodard nettleton high class of 02 yes i am a raider
McD for OC?
(runs away from ensuing firestorm)
ATTN BBV: The Giants will not make the playoffs this year. In light of this fact I will now be cheering for the Eagles for the remainder of this season. Please join me. It’s a much better scenario than jut waitning for next year. Go Vick!
\I lost a bet. Please pardon the avatar/signature/
Maybe, Northwest
But I don’t think you can make that assessment today. Let’s see what happens the final two games. If the Giants finish with a three-game losing streak you can make the argument that they have had awful finishes two seasons in a row and maybe a change should be considered. If they win the next two, or one of two, to get to 10 or 11 wins it is pretty hard to justify getting rid of the coach.
Let’s let it play out. When we have all the information then I think we can have a fair ‘stay or go’ discussion.
by Ed Valentine on Dec 21, 2010 9:17 PM EST up reply actions
Giants don't do lame duck coaches
Next year would be his last year, so he either gets an extension or is let go/allowed to gracefully step away. Right now regardless of the final two games could you really make the argument that he deserves an extension? It’s one thing if you are talking about not just outright firing the guy, but you have to have the conversation in the light of the extension. I just don’t see how you can justify TC getting an extension. As I see it TC retires, we have a new coach from somewhere and the Giants keep it classy and we don’t have to fire TC.
That's true, BigBlue
But, that’s not the conversation that has been framed at this point. I fully believe TC does not coach beyond next season. I also believe that he has done a lot of good things in his tenure. Let’s just see how the end of this season plays out.
by Ed Valentine on Dec 21, 2010 11:14 PM EST up reply actions
If he doesn't coach beyond next season
I don’t think he coaches next season. If he did he would be a lame duck coach next year, which like I already stated the Giants don’t seem to do as an organization. He either gets an extension or is done at the end of this year. I don’t think he deserves an extension.
I heard
the other day he has two years left on his deal, I thought it was one also…That may dissuade Jerry & Co. from making a change.
I don't coach 'em up well.
My Special Teams don't block, don't tackle, are somewhat
oblivious to an onside kick. My punter is a knucklehead.
Who am I? No No, not an American Express commercial.
I'm Tom Quinn, soon to be ex- Special Teams Coach of the NY Giants.
by Great Gatsby on Dec 22, 2010 11:24 AM EST up reply actions
Next season
is the last on his current contract, iirc.
ATTN BBV: The Giants will not make the playoffs this year. In light of this fact I will now be cheering for the Eagles for the remainder of this season. Please join me. It’s a much better scenario than jut waitning for next year. Go Vick!
\I lost a bet. Please pardon the avatar/signature/
According
to Scheffter on ESPN the other day, signed new deal after Super Bowl in Feb ’08, says it has two years left.
I don't coach 'em up well.
My Special Teams don't block, don't tackle, are somewhat
oblivious to an onside kick. My punter is a knucklehead.
Who am I? No No, not an American Express commercial.
I'm Tom Quinn, soon to be ex- Special Teams Coach of the NY Giants.
by Great Gatsby on Dec 22, 2010 2:22 PM EST up reply actions
Good coach
Would a good coach have lost this game, let’s say Belichick? I doubt it. Point being, it’s on the coaching staff. There wasn’t one breakdown, there were several, especially special teams.
He also
won 3 other big games.
"I don't do many endorsements. I'd rather get doused by Gatorade than bust my butt selling it." - Bill Parcells
Just saying any coach can lose a big game
Even Lombardi lost his first title game
Not the point
It’s not the point that good coaches can lose games, it’s how they lost.
why
why email? Why not post in the forums and share with others?
"I don't do many endorsements. I'd rather get doused by Gatorade than bust my butt selling it." - Bill Parcells
Good question...
Not really sure why – I don’t have the best answer, I did it primarily because I know that Ed (and many others) don’t necessarily take kindly to my Gilbride-bashing. So I didn’t want to bore and/or spam everyone w/ my loathing of the coaching staff.
Some people like to share their thoughts directly, and I enjoy that. My e-mail address is on the website for a reason, and every once in a while the e-mails lead to a thought-provoking post. Like this one.
by Ed Valentine on Dec 21, 2010 8:44 PM EST up reply actions
Couldn't disagree more
TC and Cowher are the same coach, with virtually the same track records
It’s not even closel
TC 136-109 55.5%
Cowher 149-90 62.3%
Cowher did more with a lot less. He never had QBs with the talent of Brunnel and Eli. Cowher. Not until Cowher got a quality QB with Big Ben did he win a SB. His previous QB didn’t scare many DCs. O’Donnell, Stewart, Tomczak, Stewart and Maddox were average QBs at best.
Also, Cowher took over a 9-7, 9-7 and 7-9 team the previous 3 seasons. He didn’t take over a juggernaut that some have suggested.
"I don't do many endorsements. I'd rather get doused by Gatorade than bust my butt selling it." - Bill Parcells
I'm not suggesting
Cowher should replace Tom. I don’t agree they basically have the same track records.
"I don't do many endorsements. I'd rather get doused by Gatorade than bust my butt selling it." - Bill Parcells
My druthers
keep TC and Fuel. Stability is better than a change. The team deserves another year with TC and Fuel.
If TC was fired my choice would be Fox. I’m not too keen on Cowher being out of the league for a few years.
"I don't do many endorsements. I'd rather get doused by Gatorade than bust my butt selling it." - Bill Parcells
by FrankB03 on Dec 21, 2010 9:27 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Stability
That is a key word and a great point. The franchises who stay on top are the ones who have stability, not the ones that make wholesale changes at the first sign of distress.
by Ed Valentine on Dec 21, 2010 11:15 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Rec'd on Stability...
I’m not giving up on TC, I never will. But I have always wondered how Fox would have done for us after he left for Carolina. But, he really did give up this year. But you can also say that Carolina gave up on him. That’s a sucky way to go for a coach who gave that franchise a lot of wins
One time, my mom bought me a Plaxico Buress jersey for my birthday. The next season he shot himself in the leg. I'm asking for a DeSean Jackson jersey this year.
Fox
I think he would have gotten the job if the timing had been slightly different. He may still end up coaching the Giants one day.
by Ed Valentine on Dec 22, 2010 9:26 AM EST up reply actions
+1
He’s the next TC. A former Giants assistant that is very much liked by ownership and has desires to be the Giants HC.
Actually Fox was going to get the job if Fassel did not have a big year in 2000. I read in Acorsi’s book that after 99 Fassel started playing hardball about getting a big contract extension and Acorsi told him I’ll just go down the hallway and promote Fox to head coach if you don’t like it.
Winning percentage
Is not a fair comparison since Coughlin got his start with a first-year expansion team.
by Ed Valentine on Dec 21, 2010 8:39 PM EST up reply actions
Disagree again
the expansion rules were different. The NFL was very generous. The Jags and Panther were awarded the first 2 picks of the 1995 draft. The Jags selected Tony Boselli The Jags also had the 19th pick of the 1st round.
The Jags in their first year struggled at 4-12. Their second year they finished 9-7. Made the playoffs. In years 3 and 4 they finished 11-5 each year. In year 5 they went 14-2. To suggest it’s not a fair comparison because they were an expansion team is plain ignorance. His first 5 years with Jags we was 49-31 better than his first 5 years with the Giants at 47-33. In Cowher’s first 5 years he went 53-27.
"I don't do many endorsements. I'd rather get doused by Gatorade than bust my butt selling it." - Bill Parcells
Coughlin didn't exactly have better in Jacksonville
Brunell was an 8th rounder. The team was an expansion franchise. Dunno how Cowher did more with less when TC was in the playoffs nearly every year in Jax.
In NY he inherited a run down franchise, much worse then what Cowher inherited, that’s for sure. I dunno how Cowher does more with less when the Giants also damn near make the playoffs every year.
Also, you have to develop your talent. Pretty sure the Steelers and Jags/Giants picked near the same spots every year.
Also the Steelers had the benefit of the same defensive coordinator nearly every year with Lebeau. Do you not think the Giants would’ve been better since 2007 if Spags was still coordinating here?
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
Good point on LeBeau.
The Steelers D is consistently good every year, and that is why they have been/are successful, whether its Cowher or Mike Tomlin coaching.
Brunell
8th rounder? So what! Brady was a 6th rounder. In his years with the Jags Brunell was a very good QB. A 3 time Pro Bowl selection. He was infinitely better than any of the Steelers QBs mentioned above. Not only was Brunell a good passer he was very mobile.
Cowher did more with less because he never had a quality QB. Until Ben he had no one near the quality of Brunell or Eli. That’s why he did more with less. He won despite no QB.
"I don't do many endorsements. I'd rather get doused by Gatorade than bust my butt selling it." - Bill Parcells
why was he a Pro Bowler?
wasn’t Kordell and Neil O’Donnel Pro Bowlers?
Point being the coach coached em up. Coughlin deserves credit if Cowher does. Can’t have it one way and not the other.
IIRC, Cowher only won the dam Super Bowl when he had a first round talent at QB, so lets not act like the 2 are different when all is developed .
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
Free
I posted above Cowher didn’t win until he had a quality QB in Ben.
Also, I never said Tom doesn’t deserve credit. I was disputing Ed that they basically have the same record. They’re both good coaches. Cowher has the better record. There’s no disputing that.
"I don't do many endorsements. I'd rather get doused by Gatorade than bust my butt selling it." - Bill Parcells
and I'm just disputing the "he did more with less" stuff.
he did not. Basically he did the same.
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
by Rorschach44 on Dec 21, 2010 10:49 PM EST up reply actions
QBs
Stewart was a Pro Bowler. His career QB rating was 70 with 77 career TD and 84 INTs.
O’Donnell was also a pro bowler. His QB stats were comparable with Brunell.
"I don't do many endorsements. I'd rather get doused by Gatorade than bust my butt selling it." - Bill Parcells
Spags and the D
were very good in 2007 and midway through 2008. The D started to play poorly the latter part of 2008. In the last 6 games of 2008 they allowed more total yards than their season average. They also allowed more than their season average and in excess of 100 yards their last 4 games. Their first 8 games they had 30 sacks. Their last 8 they had 13.
Would the Giants D been better in 2009 with Spags? Absolutely. However, not much better with all the injuries they had.
"I don't do many endorsements. I'd rather get doused by Gatorade than bust my butt selling it." - Bill Parcells
Cowher coached in a mediocre division for several years.
by Giant Package' on Dec 22, 2010 11:06 AM EST up reply actions
+1
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
by Rorschach44 on Dec 22, 2010 11:23 AM EST up reply actions
Forget Cowher
How about some fresh blood? Why not look for options from the ranks of coordinators out there looking to make their mark as a HC? Someone looking to prove themselves might just come in with the fire and determination that this team needs. This team is soft and lacks passion. Gone are the days of blue collar hard working Giants who may not have been stars but played their hearts out every minute of every game, and now we have these athletically gifted filled of star potential players that are soft. We need someone who will come in and get these guys to play like men or find players who will. I don’t know if one city could handle it, but what about Rob Ryan. Those browns defensive players play like hard for him, and he has put together one heck of a defense with half the talent we have.
I dislike
the coordinator promotion to HC. Most are failures. I understand most go to poor teams.
"I don't do many endorsements. I'd rather get doused by Gatorade than bust my butt selling it." - Bill Parcells
There's really not much of an alternative.
Former HCs promoted to the same spot often fail too.
The Giants are a very talented team that should a new coach come here, he’d probably look a lot better then he actually is.
Much like Jim Caldwell is in Indy and how Jason Garrett will look if Jerruah retains him.
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
Also to be considered
No Super Bowl winner has come back and won again, not Parcells, not JJ, not Ditka, jury out on Shanny,
History says you have a better chance with 2nd hires that didn’t
TC, Lil Bill, Vermeil, Shanny PT 2, Shula, Dungy, Gruden, I’m sure I missed some
No HC started life as a HC
So every successful HC was a successful promotion somewhere along the line. I see no reason not to look to be successful in finding that waiting to be promoted coach. Add that available HCs are available for a reason and to me it is a comparison of giving a guy who has been successful as a coordinator a chance to step up vs giving the job to a guy because he has done the HC thing, but at a poor enough level to be let go. There are rare exceptions like Cowher who walked away on his own terms, but I’m just not a Cowher fan.
Coincidence...I think not
I'm gonna buy a HDTV with 3D technology so I can intercept an Eli Manning pass before the season is over.
Yep, Philly
Authorities stressed that neighbors must not take the law into their own hands. A man falsely identified as a suspect on Facebook called police for help after fearing vigilantes.
It's a triumph of number crunching over the human spirit...aaaaaand, it’s about time. -- Play-by-Play Announcer, The Simpsons.
by MookieTheCat on Dec 21, 2010 11:35 PM EST up reply actions
Oh and by the way...
Adam Schefter just tweeted that Aaron Rodgers has been cleared to play the game on Sunday…
Just in case anyone was curious. We’ve still gonna kick ass :-) And hopefully knock him out again.
Win and we're in. Past is the past. Play your ass off. Enough said...
Not sold on TC or Cowher
I am sold on Mike Tomlin. These coaches with their reputations and “systems” always trouble me. Shanahan in Washington is a prime example. I want a coach that gets the best out of his players as they are currently built. Tomlin, who was a 4-3 guy has done well with the 3-4 because the DC is a master of it and the players were built for it. Fewell has done a pretty strong job with basically the same defense (safety’s aside) that was here last year. The most important criterion for hire is the ability to raise the level of play of the current roster. Part of that is setting the tone for winning. TC is tense and his players play with tension (his yelling at Dodge is a prime example). I fear Cowher will be more similar to Shanahan’s debacle because he has “his way of running a team.” TC also had his reputation and “his way.” Let’s not recycle coaches but like the Steelers, find the right guy to mesh with the GM and players.
Cowher
Something to keep in mind that I read the other day. No coach has ever won a Super Bowl with two different organizations. Not that Cowher couldn’t. It just has never been done. Parcells got there, but didn’t win.
by Ed Valentine on Dec 21, 2010 9:26 PM EST up reply actions
always a first
for everything.
As I posted above I don’t want Cowher.
"I don't do many endorsements. I'd rather get doused by Gatorade than bust my butt selling it." - Bill Parcells
I'm with you, Frank
I'm gonna buy a HDTV with 3D technology so I can intercept an Eli Manning pass before the season is over.
You don't have to get better coaches or players
This team has proven that they can play with anyone and climb out of any hole. The grass is always greener.
That's right...
It’s a marathon – as Ed said earlier, let’s allow the season to play out. The Jints may not fire on all cylinders enough to my liking, but it’s true that they do come back after being counted out. Coughlin’s strength may be in that he never loses his team…the discipline may be evident in the way they can get things back on track.
TC is a MUCH BETTER coach than many give him credit for.
Check out these numbers.
http://www.giants.com/news/headlines/story.asp?story_id=44683
Weird Stuff
2 of the 9 “greatest collapses” belong to the Giants in the last 5 years – but 50-5 under TC bringing a lead into the 4th quarter. Sounds pretty disciplined to me.
50-5
an impressive stat. During the same time frame only 3 team have a better record.
Falcons 50-3
Pats 70-5
Colts 67-5
Conversely, under TC Giants have the 10th worst record in November and December. We’re in some pretty bad company with teams like Lions, Raiders, Rams, Chiefs and Browns. Even the Bills, who haven’t had a winning season (9-7) since 2004, have a better November and December record.
"I don't do many endorsements. I'd rather get doused by Gatorade than bust my butt selling it." - Bill Parcells
Make that three..
"When I was a boy and I had no sense..I got my pecker caught in an electric fence..Well it curled my hair, tickled my balls and made me shit in my overalls..."
+1
I’m in as well. Again, not without issues here and there, but who isn’t?
The team is 9-5, could go 11-5. The players know they were the majority of the screw-up. That right there tells you the coaches are doing the right thing by instilling humility when mistakes are made. No finger pointing or excuses being made for any single player to try to exempt them from blame. That to me would be the sign of a bad coach, who has lost the respect of his players.
TC gets 'em believing
They may not always produce, but they never think they can’t – and THAT is the sign of good coaching and good leadership
Very true. You listen to the players, they have the drive, and the belief they can beat anyone. They have the accountability, and the desire. They just need to execute better, and no matter what you say, a coach can’t execute for them.
It’s like my kids… I can tell them exactly what they are supposed to do, and I discipline them when they don’t do the right things. Sometimes they’re angels and they do the right stuff. Sometimes they’re not. They’re human.
They were very close Sunday
Carl Banks said he tought they would win by double digits. NFL Network analysts said after the game, top to bottom, Giants are the better team. For 53 minutes they proved it. Even Tiki said Coughlin will get the team to bounce back. Eli stepped up and is ready to roll.
I think they’ll answer the bell.
Ed,
I’ve always been a Coughlin supporter, and while I agree that essentially, TC and Cowher are the same coach, both are demanding, take no bs, militant coaches, there is one glaring difference. No body, I mean no body, doesn’t play hard for Cowher, and the same sadly, cannot be said of TC. I would bet a month’s pay that what happened on Sunday would not have happened if Cowher were the coach, he just wouldn’t have allowed it. I don’t know if it’s reputation alone, or if he just demands excellence every play, from everyone, but Cowher gets the most out of his players day in and day out, and while TC is a good coach, I feel like he doesn’t put high enough expectations or accountability on his players.
by ManningHam and Cheese on Dec 21, 2010 10:18 PM EST reply actions
Accountability he's got -
maybe you’re thinking consequences? Should he be benching guys, pulling starters, firing coaches…dare I say, yell some more?
Benchings & firings
get noticed by people. Yelling, anyone can tune out. You sit someone on their butt, they take notice.
In 15 seasons
Cowher’s Steelers were 116-12 entering the 4th with the lead. Of which 8 were leads of 3 points or less. His largest blown lead entering the 4th was 13 points.
"I don't do many endorsements. I'd rather get doused by Gatorade than bust my butt selling it." - Bill Parcells
This is an excellent stat
Please repeat it elsewhere.
I am so tired of people saying give TC a chance. He has repeatedly failed to keep the team in games they should win.
I do not care how he does the rest of his time here, I do not have any confidence in him. SB or not, he is not reliable as a coach.
Not a Cowher supporter but certainly not confident in TC.
All the Giants should play like Mark Bavaro.
Tom Quinn Must Go!
by UnknownJintsFan on Dec 22, 2010 8:21 AM EST up reply actions
Well, I'm about burned out with all of these topics today and tonight..
I’m looking towards Green Bay..the here and now, if you will..We need the next two games to ice the cake..Our special teams stink..In fact just to humor me..I would love to see our cover guys just chase the returners down the field clanging two coconuts together to make the horse hoove sounds..It’ll come down to our offense scoring and our defense stopping the opponents..Give the Sts coconuts to clang together…
"When I was a boy and I had no sense..I got my pecker caught in an electric fence..Well it curled my hair, tickled my balls and made me shit in my overalls..."
Sunday can't come fast enough for me, either
TC’s the coach, the players are the one’s he brought to the dance, so let’s get ’em to Lambeau to have at it with the Pack. You KNOW the STs are gonna be amped up for some redemption.
I'm
not saying Coughlin should be fired, as a matter of fact, I’d like to see him stay regardless, as I don’t think there is a better coach out there for THIS team, I’m just saying that Cowher has this way about him that to me seems like Sunday would not have happened to a team he coached.
by ManningHam and Cheese on Dec 21, 2010 10:25 PM EST reply actions
"Seems like"
Those words say a lot. It “seems” like Cowher’s teams never had let downs, and seems like he would not have let a game like Sunday’s slip away.
“Seems like”, with a couple of different calls in his 2nd SB, he would be 0-2 in the big one. We Giant fans suffer from watching our team VERY CLOSELY every week – we see most of the other teams via “gamebreak” highlights between plays and it seems like them and their coaches have things in order. Familiarity breeds contempt!
This is a great point in a number of different ways
We Giant fans suffer from watching our team VERY CLOSELY every week – we see most of the other teams via "gamebreak" highlights between plays and it seems like them and their coaches have things in order. Familiarity breeds contempt!
I’ve watched plenty of games that Cowher has coached, but never with the same intensity that I watched Giants-Carolina in week 1 (to pick the biggest gimme of the season). I bet if you asked some rabid Steelers fans they might have some things to tell you about Cowher.
It's a triumph of number crunching over the human spirit...aaaaaand, it’s about time. -- Play-by-Play Announcer, The Simpsons.
by MookieTheCat on Dec 21, 2010 11:31 PM EST up reply actions
By the way,
I stand by my words from earlier in the season,“How the hell is Matt Dodge on an NFL roster?”
by ManningHam and Cheese on Dec 21, 2010 10:27 PM EST reply actions
Bottom Line -
any one of ten things in the last 8 minutes of Sunday’s game goes different and none of us are having this conversation. Let’s get a W on the 26th, get to 10-5, and forget all the TC talk for now.
Dick J
you confuse my words. I’m not saying a Cowher led team never had a let down, I’m saying in that particular circumstance on Sunday, when, for the most part, we can all agree that poor coaching, Head Coach down the last 8 minutes cost us a game, Cowher is the type of coach that wouldn’t have allowed that meltdown to happen. For example, Fewell’s defensive play calling in the 4th quarter was downright foolish. Cowher would have gone up to him and given him an earful, and presumably, the DC would have reverted to the game plan that worked for 3 and a half quarters. Cowher’s ST coordinator would have been ready for that onside kick, you can guarantee that. All I’m saying is that Cowher would have gotten in some one’s face after the lead had been cut to say 7, whether it was a player, or a coach, and TC just simply does not do that. Cowher was not afraid to get in the face of one of his starters or stars, even sit a guy for a series or what have you, and for that reason I just couldn’t picture Sunday happening to a team he coached the way that it did. With that being said, I believe in what Coughlin is doing, and I believe he will have his team 100% ready for Green Bay this Sunday. All I was saying was that there were numerous meltdowns from different parts of the coaching staff in the 4th quarter, and Cowher would have fixed something, somewhere before what happened, happened.
by ManningHam and Cheese on Dec 21, 2010 11:00 PM EST up reply actions
OK, I see where you're coming from
Still, I don’t know for certain how Cowher would or would not have responded. TC does it his way, trusts his staff, perhaps is more hands off during the game. Could he have read the DC the riot act in the 4thQ? Yes. Another of the “any one of ten things” that could have been different.
Agreed,
Coughlin is simply not that type of coach, in that instance, he may have needed to be. But this loss falls on the coaching staff, and the defense, I don’t point all the blame at the way TC handled things down the stretch.
by ManningHam and Cheese on Dec 21, 2010 11:13 PM EST up reply actions
He'll never
EVER be Jeff Feagles. He can’t directional kick, he can’t tame down a kick from say the 50 to pin the other team inside the 10, it goes into the end zone almost every time, oh, and he can’t handle pressure, period. No matter how big a leg he’s got, and I’m not disputing that, he’s got a boomer, he can’t handle pressure, it’s the man not the player. He’s not cut out to handle the pressure of being a professional athlete.
by ManningHam and Cheese on Dec 21, 2010 10:49 PM EST reply actions
Manningham
doesn’t drop the cheese and we’re 10-4.
I can’t argue with you about Dodge v Feagles. There’s no argument…but things NEVER should have even gotten to Dodge – and like TC, we wouldn’t have been talking about him this week, either.
Tell me about it
My boy let me down big time on that one. Still our most explosive play maker though :)
by ManningHam and Cheese on Dec 21, 2010 11:02 PM EST up reply actions
As much as I dispise Dodge,
I don’t blame him for the loss, he simply folded under pressure and made a bad play that led to the loss. There were 347 missed tackles on that play, so to blame it on him isn’t fair. What I ahve a problem with is how he reacted under pressure. His reply after the game of" I didn’t think I could kick it out of bounds" was just shameful. He’s got to know the situation, and who the returner is. Even if he had kicked the ball 20 measly yards, but out of bounds the game is in overtime. But I agree with you 110%, it NEVER should have come to that in the first place, which is why it’s completely unfair to solely blame him for the loss.
by ManningHam and Cheese on Dec 21, 2010 11:18 PM EST up reply actions
I watched that play about 14 times.
If you look at the zoom out view of the play, you see Giants on their butts all over the place. It was way more than Dodge. My old jr high coach once told us “I don’t care where you are at the end of the play, but don’t be on your butt.” It applied here well.
It's a triumph of number crunching over the human spirit...aaaaaand, it’s about time. -- Play-by-Play Announcer, The Simpsons.
by MookieTheCat on Dec 21, 2010 11:33 PM EST up reply actions
Don't know if there's such a thing as "prevent" punt coverage
but we sure could have used some on that play. Jackson was just about past everyone after 10 yards!
Yep
Makes the loss of Sintim seem more important.
It's a triumph of number crunching over the human spirit...aaaaaand, it’s about time. -- Play-by-Play Announcer, The Simpsons.
by MookieTheCat on Dec 21, 2010 11:51 PM EST up reply actions
the G-Men
are still a great football team everyone had bad days
okay i have cerebral palsy arthris and chronic fatigue as well i have a great life and loveing folks some days are better than other days i got a make-a-wish in 2001 and saw my favorite team the broncos it was the trip of a lifetime i wish everyone couild have gotten to enjoy that with me i know some of u hate the broncos and that okay but i bleed organ and bule for my mnr fans but i bleed orange and blue denver will rise again resident broncos fan for every blog resident broncos for stampede bule thanks shvd98z24 real name jeremy woodard nettleton high class of 02 yes i am a raider
Dodge is a Rookie
We need to relax on Dodge. A year ago he was punting for East Carolina not the Patriots. He’s a 7th rounder out there getting better each game and contributing more than say Clint Sintim, fellow Pirate Linval Joseph, Mitch Petrus, Stoney Woodson, DeAndre Wright, Rhett Bomar, and Sinorice Moss. We can afford for him to develop. Even with him, the G-Men are in the playoff hunt. Let’s see what he can do with good coaching.
I have seen it briefly mentioned
but a key play was the Diehl false start when Bear did not know where to line up.
Firstly how does that happen coming out of a timeout.
Secondly why did Eli not call a timeout as we had three left as the 5 yard penalty became huge as a 2nd and 6 ended up as a 3rd and 8 – whereas a 3rd and short could have been made.
by G Fan in England on Dec 22, 2010 6:07 AM EST reply actions
G
Any idea on how long the Simms exile is? Is it temporary or life? Do we need to have another protest?
When you don't know that you don't know, it's a lot different than when you do know that you don't know. - Bill Parcells
See latest post on thread
It is self imposed – no need to protest!
by G Fan in England on Dec 22, 2010 9:45 AM EST up reply actions
+100000000000000
I’ve posted this numerous times. Eli and Bear shared blame for Diehl’s false start. Coming out of the Eagles timeout Bear didn’t know the play. Eli motioned twice to move. The play clock was winding down. We had 3 timeouts. ELI NEEDED to take a timeout there.
"I don't do many endorsements. I'd rather get doused by Gatorade than bust my butt selling it." - Bill Parcells
This is a great point
The Giants have seemed to have problems coming out of time-outs for a while. I hadn’t thought of this, but it’s almost like having too much time hurts the team. There should never, ever be a false start (and even moreso an illegal formation) coming out of time out. It makes you wonder what they were discussing.
It's a triumph of number crunching over the human spirit...aaaaaand, it’s about time. -- Play-by-Play Announcer, The Simpsons.
by MookieTheCat on Dec 23, 2010 1:52 AM EST up reply actions
I'm not in Coughlins Corner
When I was in college, I loved Madonna. I went to the Garden, wore the Virgin Tour shirt and ground on all the cute girls with their crosses and gloves on.
It was cool while it lasted, she had her day, she was great entertainment, the window has closed. I have no desire to see Madonna singing onstage in a garter belt anymore even though the opporunity still may present itself.
I feel the same way about Coughlin, especially in terms of the garter belt. He has become stale. He is unable to get his message across to this group of players and motivate them to change their ways.
Irregardless of the argument “who out there is better”, that is not the point. This franchise needs some fresh air.
that has to be the most unique metaphor
I’ve ever seen in a football blog. Kudos
by NorthwestFan on Dec 22, 2010 10:31 AM EST up reply actions
The inability to run
Says more about how bad Coughlin called this one. The Giants run game was great these past few weeks. So why would you change the O-line up when it was being so successful?
O’hara should have sat this one out, and came back the next week (packers game) to get him prepared for the playoffs
the Eagles always stop our run game
Don’t scapegoat O’Hara….
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
by Rorschach44 on Dec 22, 2010 11:24 AM EST up reply actions

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