For The New York Giants, The Grades Are In
by Ed Valentine on Oct 13, 2010 12:50 PM EDT
in New York Giants News
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Our friends at Pro Football Focus are out with their grades for this week's New York Giants at Houston Texans game. Things, obviously, went well for the Giants. Let's see just how well, according to the folks at PFF.
Offense
First, let's look at the good.
- You would figure that Hakeem Nicks would rate well after his 12-catch, 130-yard, two-touchdown effort. He did, with a +3.4, the best of any offensive players.
- Eli Manning ended up +2.2, even with two interceptions and his weekly delay of game penalty.
- Here is a number that might get your attention. Shawn Andrews played 19 snaps at a variety of spots along the line and ended up with a +1.5 grade. He is becoming more and more important to the offense.
- Steve Smith (+1.5), Rich Seubert (+1.0), Kevin Boss (+0.9), Kareem McKenzie (+0.7) and ahmad Bradshaw (+0.5) were all also noteworthy on the plus side.
Now, the bad news on offense.
- I thought left tackle David Diehl played well enough Sunday that I included him in my Monday 'Kudos.' Well, PFF disagrees. Their analysis left Diehl with a team-worst -5.0 grade, faulting him for five pressures and two hits on Manning. Diehl, by the way, now has a -16.5 grade for the season. The only tackle in the league with a worse mark is San Diego's Brandyn Dombrowski, who is at -19.2.
- Judging from PFF, it's a wonder the offense got anything done at all. Center Adam Koets was marked at -3.1 and even Pro Bowl guard Chris Snee came in at -2.5 after allowing three pressures.
- Mario Manningham and Bear Pascoe were both -1.3. I can't kill either guy. Little to nothing was thrown Manningham's way, and Pascoe was playing extended time at fullback for the first time in his career.
Defense
As you would expect, very little to be unhappy about here.
- Every defensive lineman had a plus grade. Osi Umenyiora led the way at +3.5, Justin Tuck was +3.3, Rocky Bernard +2.9, Chris Canty +2.4, Barry Cofield +1.2, Dave Tollefson +1.0, Jason Pierre-Paul +0.4 (in 20 snaps) and Linval Joseph +0.2 (in seven snaps).
- Among the linebackers, Michael Boley was +1.5 and Jonathan Goff +0.8. Goff, by the way, has the sixth-best ranking among middle linebackers in the league through five games, a +7.3. Clint Sintim, you ask? Sintim played a season-high 20 snaps against the Texans, and ended up with a pretty good +0.7 score. No big plays, but the mark indicates he did what he was supposed to do on most plays, and that's progress for the second-year linebacker.
- Corey Webster (+0.9) and Kenny Phillips (+0.3 in just 20 snaps) had the best grades among the secondary. Surprisingly, Aaron Ross (-0.1), Deon Grant (-0.9), Antrel Rolle (-1.0) and Terrell Thomas (-1.6) all graded negatively. I can't recall anything obvious to pick on about the way any of them played.
Special teams
- Lawrence Tynes had a good day, and ended up with a +2.3.
- Matt Dodge did OK, and his +0.3 score reflects that.
- Returner Darius Reynaud is still an issue. He averaged just 4.4 yards on punt returns and ended up with an overall score of -0.4. We already knew there is still work to be done there.
Football Outsiders
We can't leave out the great work done over at Football Outsiders when we talk about statistical analysis. In FO's weekly DVOA (Defense-adjusted Value Over Average) rankings, the Giants now have the league's No. 1 defense. And the folks at Outsiders can't figure them out.
Here is what they had to say about the Giants.
The surprising and extremely confusing New York Giants are now in the top spot for the NFC, narrowly passing Atlanta and Green Bay. The Giants are just one of a number of teams having a ridiculously inconsistent season so far, especially on defense. The Giants' defensive variance of 26.1% is nearly twice that of any other team. Even more inconsistent overall have been the Chicago Bears. The Bears are the only team with a higher overall variance than the Giants, and they've been super inconsistent on both sides of the ball: 32nd in variance on offense, 31st on defense.
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Speak no Evil
I love David Diehl like a son, but this season he has been terrible. I’m not suprised by his grade, I thought he was serviceable last Sunday at best. When you compare that to the previous 3 weeks, it makes Dave look like an All-star.
I don’t know what happened maybe Dave is hurt and not saying anything but being the second worst LT in the game screams to me that he needs to go to the bench. I am praying Dave turns it around because I don’t like talking bad about him.
by Late for Dinner on Oct 13, 2010 12:57 PM EDT reply actions
Not Evil Just the Truth
To anybody who has been watching Giants football, Diehl’s grade(s) should be no surprise. I wanted the Giants to replace him after week 4 OF LAST YEAR, when he almost got Eli Manning murdered against the Chiefs. He could not handle speed rushers a year ago, and he certainly hasn’t gotten better since. If the Giants offense wants to be potent and capable of keeping us in games against better teams, we need a different answer at left tackle. My vote is for Andrews to take over the position permanantly. Isn’t Diehl a natural guard anyway? Slide him back to his real position. Maybe he can still be a good, effective lineman.
by NYStateofMind on Oct 13, 2010 10:43 PM EDT up reply actions
???
I thought Koets and Snee were pretty solid…
Or are these negative grades for them more a reflection of how good the Texans D-line was?
by Amsterdam Admirals on Oct 13, 2010 12:58 PM EDT reply actions
Probably
A little of both. It is soooo difficult to watch line play while you are looking at the game on TV. You almost have to go back, watch the tape and look at each guy one at a time.
by Ed Valentine on Oct 13, 2010 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions
thanks Ed
Seubert is on a mission…..he probably taped up those comments KG made about him earlier this year in his locker.
"We need to get him some more game experience and see him make decisions on the run. But I think he's earned the opportunity." - Eli Manning
"If I'm curt, then I apologize" - Newman
Could the Varience be the Giant D adjusting to Perry's D?
They look like they are getting better and better evey week to me. On top of that Seems the D is prepaired for whatever the offense is throwing at them. Shoot last Sunday it seemed like the Giants new the Texans plays better than the Texans.
by Late for Dinner on Oct 13, 2010 1:00 PM EDT reply actions
i think it is....
Looks like they are really buying into what Fewell is selling. Each of them are trusting that the guys next to them are doing what they are supposed to… no more “freelancing” like with Sheridan’s D.
its all about this D line. when the D line is dominant, the whole D is dominant. When the D line is shut down, the D suffers. We will live and die this year by our D-line… just like every year. Good thing we got some real players on that line.
by Plaxico Burress on Oct 13, 2010 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Most surprised by D tackles
I think it’s fair to assume we knew the talent we had at the end position with Tuck, Osi, and Nukes. I thought Cofield would perform better another year removed from his knee surgery, but I’m very happily surprised with the progress Canty and Bernard have made since last season. Granted, they were beat up for most of the year, but I didn’t think we had as much talent at tackle as we’ve shown.
Ed, I think the problem with Diehl is this...
When you thought about the game when giving out Kudos and Wet Willies, Diehl didn’t have any major blunders (sacks, forced fumbles allowed). But on the plays where Eli had to rush a throw, it was usually because Diehl’s man was bringing pressure.
The other reason I’m sure he grades poorly is because his run blocking is atrocious. Bradshaw had an awesome cut back on one play that was intended to go to the left. But the defensive line is consistently in the backfield whenever the Giants try to run to the left.
I mean, he has faced some tough D-ends the last few weeks
It’s not easy going against Peppers and Mario Williams two straight weeks in a row. Not saying he has been playing great, but he has faced some tough D-ends 3 out of the 5 weeks so far.
You should've seen her face. It was the exact same look my father gave me when I told him I wanted to be a ventriloquist.
I would be curious to see how all LTs are rated...
…I would imagine that most are rated lower on balance than, say, guard. Seeing as how the overwhelming majority of QBs are right-handed, the heat tends to come from the blindside, with many teams’ best pass rusher at RDE. Interior lineman (with a few notable exceptions) tend to have less sacks, so my presumption is that, unless they are getting completely blown up on running plays, their numbers might be better on par than an LT as they tend to yield less sacks. i guess it all depends on PFF’s methodology, though, and how much weight they assign to sacks/pressures.
by Step up and make big plays on Oct 13, 2010 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions
yes, but if FPP's methodology...
…awards defenders for stepping up and making big plays and getting on the stat sheet, and punishes offensive lineman for yielding big plays, then a positive rating could be viewed as an indicator of simply being adequate and not getting burned. How does an OL earn positive points on their scale — pancake blocks?
As another poster already observed, this, too, is what frustrates me in part about fantasy football. How do you assign a metric to the work that offensive linemen do?
by Step up and make big plays on Oct 13, 2010 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly...
There are tough DEs all around the league. A good LT is supposed to be able to handle that responsibility. Diehl cannot, at least not against any kind of speed rusher. I would put money on the fact that if we are facing a good speed rusher at DE and Diehl is still our LT, our offense will suffer greatly, and we’ll likely lose those games.
by NYStateofMind on Oct 13, 2010 10:47 PM EDT up reply actions
DEs
That is his job, though. Facing the best pass-rushers is what a left tackle is there for. He is either up to the task, or he isn’t.
by Ed Valentine on Oct 13, 2010 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions
It is impossible to grade the performance of a player
without taking into consideration the quality of his opponent.
by giant fan since 57 on Oct 13, 2010 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions
That's the job
That’s why he gets paid a premium.
"I was going to separate from this guy and make him look silly." -- Kevin Boss
The Titans lead the league in sacks
but 2 out of their 22 on the season came against the Giants.
Winning cures all...even stupid
by FreeBradshaw on Oct 13, 2010 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions
David Diehl
I posted earlier in the week he was OK. He received lots of help. On more than half the plays Andrews or Boss lined up outside Diehl. On passing plays when he had no help Bradshaw either chipped or double teamed the lineman.
The very first offensive play of the game. A running play for Bradshaw Diehl was pushed back at least 3 yards into AB. The play lost 4 yards.
On the 2nd series Diehl never picked up the stunt. The Dlineman ran right by Diehl untouched forcing Eli to get rid of the ball.
On the 3rd series on a passing play Diehl was bull rushed into Eli. From there he settled down in the 1st half.
I recorded the game. I watched the entire first half keying on Diehl.
"I don't do many endorsements. I'd rather get doused by Gatorade than bust my butt selling it." - Bill Parcells
+1
only thing that makes me nervious about Beatty is that he couldnt beat out Diehl in training camp
by Plaxico Burress on Oct 13, 2010 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Rocky
best grade for D tackle. A pleasant surprise.
"I don't do many endorsements. I'd rather get doused by Gatorade than bust my butt selling it." - Bill Parcells
Not to beat a point to death....
but this shows what I’ve been seeing. Our interior D linemen are beasts. In fact, outside of safety, its the biggest improvement on our team. Canty and Bernard were really banged up last year….this year they are looking dominate.
Everything is easier on D when these guys are firing.
I want more JPP and I want it now!
Woould be interested to see the breakdown on Andrews
Did he play any LT in this game? I think he had at least a few snaps when Diehl cramped. Would be interested to know his scores at LT.
I want more JPP and I want it now!
Rolle
how the heck did he grade a negative number? i saw him time and time again making big plays in not only pass coverage and downfeild tackling, but making stops on run plays at the line of scrimmage… dont understand that one
by Plaxico Burress on Oct 13, 2010 1:30 PM EDT reply actions
I too call b.s. on this ratings system...
I wanna know how these results come about and how they earn and lose points
by bdasilva7785 on Oct 13, 2010 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Step up
I just want Diehl (Oline as such) and Eli to step up for Gmen to be Elite.
Defense had already stepped up their play
A post like this makes me salivate...
…so much stepping up.
by Step up and make big plays on Oct 13, 2010 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions
No way our OL can be Elite
this year. I just hope the whole O can hold tegetther the way they have despite the weakness of the OL.
And that tackle for the chargers is that guy who's filling in for marcus mcneill's holdout?
If so, by PFF, we have the worst LT in the league. It hurts man, it hurts
TOOO MUCH TIME
Seriously I hope they get paid for this other wise they need new hobbies.
That is all
PFF guys?
I think that is why they charge for the premium stuff now.
by Ed Valentine on Oct 13, 2010 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions
ironic
to comment in a message board (while presumably at work) about how mundane PFFs work is. in any event, i do appreicate this view on a player by player basis, but have a simple question, are these numbers linear? as in, if someoneis +1.5 and his competitor is +3.0, does that mean he is 100% better?
Ralph V's injury update is out
Great news! Check it out.
I want more JPP and I want it now!
Is there any deeper explination ever given to the ratings?
You use the PFF stats a lot Ed, but I’m not sure what they are even based on. The numbers in this one seem especially suspect. Are these just subjective (read arbitrary) numbers or are they brought back to any kind of actual metric? The more off base they become the less value they hold as a discussion poitn to me.
PFF Grading Method
It is explained here — http://www.profootballfocus.com/about/grading/
I’m not certain you can actually read it without a subscription, but that tells you exactly what they do.
by Ed Valentine on Oct 13, 2010 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions
you can read it without a subscription
They acknowledge themselves they can’t avoid falling prey to a certain amount of subjectivity, one of the lines that stood out for me was:
Grades are given for plays which are reasonably considered to be better or worse than the average or expected play
Better or worse than what? that player? the NFL? The team? And how reasonable is reasonable?
I appreciate that they try to stay objective and have installed failsaves to get that, but the grades aren’t totally objective it seems to me. Still worth thinking about and discussing, certainly.
by Amsterdam Admirals on Oct 13, 2010 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions
There methods show why the DB #s could be off
If they only uptick or downtick for a play that is “better or worse than average” then DBs are likely to end up with more downticks probably. The ball isn’t thrown to their man because they are in good coverage and that porbably goes down as a 0 due to being considered the average or because they couldn’t see it on TV, but if there guy gets thrown to and is open they probably get a downtick. If the only way for a DB to get an uptick is to deflect a pass or get an interception it won’t work out to a good evaluation of their overall play.
They’d be better off not trying to pretend to have it really be “objective” because everything about the system is subjective right down to your definition of average and what the expected result of a play is. It’d be better to say they try to remain fair in their analysis and not take favorites.
Methods
Thing is, this is why I always tell you guys to use these as a ‘guide.’ They are not gospel, but as a tool used in evaluating player performance (of which there aren’t many statistical ones in the NFL) it has value. In general, it can tell us who is doing well over the long term and who is doing poorly.
by Ed Valentine on Oct 13, 2010 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Why PFF is useful
There are only a few reviewers. And they developed the system together, so you can be pretty sure they are all issuing similar grades for similar plays.
A positive or negative grade by itself is not a great guide to how a player is doing, but is better used to compare him to other players at his position.
They look at every player for every play, and the result of the play has no impact. A run to the left could go for 25 yards, but if the TE on the right side whiffs on his block of the LDE, who does not catch up to the play, the TE gets a negative grade. Or Snee could have a negative grade from last game by missing a few blocks, but it is possible we did not see it because the guy he was blocking did not make any plays.
Its easy to explain
Its the BCS of Personnel…..
Yawn.
D-line
Is is safe to say now that Reese’s FA aquisitions prior to last season were not all that bad, just hurt most the year. We will never forget “Colossal Calamity” Brown, but Canty, Bernard, and Boley have all been solid, if not good, so far this year. I know some of us (me included) were ready for his head with how much money was spent on Canty, Bernard, and Boley with little results. But, they are definitely showing something this year.
Fair enough.
Still, IMO, he used a bit too much ammo on the D and not enough on the OL
Good to see Canty, Boley and Bernard coming along. I attribute a lot of it to Fewell as well as Osi’s rebirth. PF knows how best to use the players he has. By playing to their strengths, he maximizes their contributions to the team.
I beleive JPP will develop into an awesome force that will help the D terrorize the league for years.
Glad to see Osi riding high.
I only expect more good things from him. Leading the DL with A +3.5 is a hell of a way to start the season. This + grade really speaks volumes when you talk into consideration the quality of personal working around him. This DL is a really impressive bunch and I am glad that they are wearing NYG uniforms.
by LoNJDTechnology on Oct 13, 2010 3:54 PM EDT reply actions
+3.5
"If I was one of our offensive opponents, I’d be scared shitless"
-Antrel Rolle
by tito (eight and oh) on Oct 13, 2010 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Did anyone else see
that SP play by JPP where it looked like he ran over two blockers to make the tackle? Maybe I was I seeing things, but that was a stand out play so far this season on kickoffs.
yup...awesome
never seen anything like it really
"I play real sports…not trying to be the best at exercising."
"I'm a bulletproof tiger man!"
- Kenny Powers "Eastbound and Down" (season 1)
Bring on C C Brown
Ok CC Brown, we will put you to shame this week. I want to see all of our receivers and TEs score TDs on this guy.
Let’s Go Giants!
Being a New York Football Giants fan or a player is not a label but it is a calling!
Deon Grant
I just wanted to say that I’ve been impressed with him. He’s been in the right place at the right time for the 2 picks he’s got and he just seems to be around the ball when he’s in there. He doesn’t get a ton of snaps but he’s just been solid.
+1
"We need to get him some more game experience and see him make decisions on the run. But I think he's earned the opportunity." - Eli Manning
"If I'm curt, then I apologize" - Newman
Things we've learned
1) you can never have too many dlineman
2) You can never have too many quality safeties
All you hear about is the past, the past... the past is the !@#$ing past, this is the present.
THIS IS TEMPORARY! A CHAMPIONSHIP IS PERMANENT
-Michael Strahan
Yeah that is a fact...We'd be in big trouble if not for that..and our LBs..
This defense we have is getting better and better every week..If we’re lucky, this could replace ‘The Wrecking Crew’ with ‘The Wrecking Gang’…I hope..
"When I was a boy and had no sense I got my pecker stuck in an electric fence..Well it curled my hair and tickled my balls, and made me shit in my overalls"
Aaron Ross is also a big time up grade from Bruce Johnson and Kevin Dockery.
I wouldn’t mind at all if they added another one…can never have too many pass rushers, then any DB is second. Not a close second, but second.
Winning cures all...even stupid
by FreeBradshaw on Oct 14, 2010 7:34 AM EDT up reply actions
I've said this before..These statistics are meaningless..We won the game..
These guys aren’t in grade school..they are NFL grade football players and they all did their jobs and won the game..this PFF baloney means nothing to me..Again do they have a rocket scientist equation for a teams preparedness?..Nope..It all boils down to who does a better job with the opponents strengths..that wins ballgames..Shove the stats and grades…Here is the bobbiblue grading system: They won-A…They lost-F….Period..this bullshit is like the ‘Homeland Security Grades’…I’m with Ron White there should only be two: Medium: “Get your helmet”…High: “Put on your fucking helmet”..and another thing..Speaking of airport security..I’m tired of seeing guys with turbins walking striaght thru scott-free with suspicous sneaker laces, while some guys Grandma is forced to walk thru that new X-ray machine: “What are those two dots on her knees?”..“I don’t know, let me have a closer look”…“Oh that’s just her breast nipples”…So then they let her through and she winds up sitting next to the guy trying to light his laces up and has to beat the shit out of him with her handbag..
"When I was a boy and had no sense I got my pecker stuck in an electric fence..Well it curled my hair and tickled my balls, and made me shit in my overalls"
Your not alone..I'm trying to figure it out too..
And I wrote it…damn..I hate when that happens..
"When I was a boy and had no sense I got my pecker stuck in an electric fence..Well it curled my hair and tickled my balls, and made me shit in my overalls"
Actually, Bobbi, except for one
minor error (walker, not handbag), everything you say is validated by the principles of Cronin’s Conundrum.
Haha!!..I can alwayscount on you..Cronin's Conunddrum...LOL!!
"When I was a boy and had no sense I got my pecker stuck in an electric fence..Well it curled my hair and tickled my balls, and made me shit in my overalls"
That's great and all
but your grading system is useless for figuring out how to win in the future. Winning doesn’t mean you played a perfect game, losing doesn’t mean you completely failed. Without figuring out the pieces, you have no way to improve. Are the ratings perfect? Of course not, but they’re a hell of a lot better than the ones people throw out 99% of the time (QB rating, Sacks, Int, etc.) that are vastly less reliable for evaluating players. You don’t have to (and shouldn’t) take them as gospel, but it’s silly to malign the stats or those who want to use them as a basis for discussion.
by yellomellojello on Oct 13, 2010 9:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Well You missed my point..I rely on game films and studying them..Not a bunch of bozos from PFF..If a player has a shitty
game..they watch the films and find out what they did wrong..and that combined with studying the next opponent..is what gets the job done..PFF,ESPN,NBC,ABC,.None of those idiots prepares a player to win or lose..the player and his coaches do…They keep their own ‘stats’..and those are the ‘stats’ that count..The most important stats are the notes the coaches take..Not tabloid stats..it is the Coaches notes and stats that correct mistakes and aid a player to face the next opponent.
"When I was a boy and had no sense I got my pecker stuck in an electric fence..Well it curled my hair and tickled my balls, and made me shit in my overalls"
For the players, I absolutely agree
but as a fan who likes to discuss the game in as detailed a manner as I can, the stats from the “bozos” are the best I can really do. I don’t have the time to break down game tape, and I’m not privy to the notes of coaches. I just don’t get the point of insulting people who are passionate enough about the game to want to watch hours of tape.
by yellomellojello on Oct 13, 2010 9:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Hey I didn't mean to hurt your feelings, yello..I'm sorry if I did..your a fellow fan..I respect your views..
"When I was a boy and had no sense I got my pecker stuck in an electric fence..Well it curled my hair and tickled my balls, and made me shit in my overalls"
Nah, I'm not insulted
You don’t have to worry about that. I’m just more talking from a fan’s perspective. I realize the players could care less, because they have (I hope) much more advanced stuff going on with their coaching staff. I mostly just wanted to defend the guys who spend time working hard to understand the game they love.. and in that I’m talking about PFF. I actually think most of the guys at the other places you named (ESPN, NBC, ABC) deserve the criticism, because they so rarely put in the work it takes to actually create solid commentary.
by yellomellojello on Oct 13, 2010 10:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Okay..that's cool..
And your right, as fans we have no idea..what goes on inside the team-room..My point was just simply they rely on their own stats and notes from game to game, so I guess folks like that outsider stat stuff..I do read what Ed posts from PFF but it’s just my opinion that they are grossly wrong..but again as a fan, that’s stuff I guess one could look at and talk about..But it is really the things that go on behind the teams closed doors that count….and frankly we’ll never know..but I’m happy I didn’t get you upset or insulted..that certainly was not my intent..
"When I was a boy and had no sense I got my pecker stuck in an electric fence..Well it curled my hair and tickled my balls, and made me shit in my overalls"
Do you really think the players give one shit how PFF rates them?..or the networks?..or the newspapers?
?
"When I was a boy and had no sense I got my pecker stuck in an electric fence..Well it curled my hair and tickled my balls, and made me shit in my overalls"
Our Defense has not been inconsistent.
If having some great, some good and 1 bad game is inconsistent… then I’ll take it.
Yes and he is getting more and more game time..that only spells good things for our guys..
"When I was a boy and had no sense I got my pecker stuck in an electric fence..Well it curled my hair and tickled my balls, and made me shit in my overalls"
???
Antrel Rolle is a starter, and he’s the reason why we’re not getting beat over the top like last year. If this were last year, the Bears and Texans would’ve scored 30+ points on us.
Kudos to that..
Your right..Rolle was a great acquistion..and he’s a leader…Can’t leave him out…
"When I was a boy and had no sense I got my pecker stuck in an electric fence..Well it curled my hair and tickled my balls, and made me shit in my overalls"
I vote for Andrews...
KP is back, although hurting again with the MCL, and Grant is also a viable option, so the Gmen covered their butts in the secondary this off-season. The D-line is also all healthy and reinforced, unlike last year, so that takes pressure off the secondary. Also, we can all see how much difference the right DC makes. So all those things go into teams not scoring at will on us. Right now the O-line is the biggest weakness the team has, and David Diehl IS horrendous. If Andrews can step into the LT role and play respectably, he will be the years biggest pick-up (in my opinion).
by NYStateofMind on Oct 13, 2010 11:04 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
This Andrews stuff is getting a bit rich...
First off, when have any of you ever seen Shawn Andrews PLAY tackle?
I know he talks about WANTING to play tackle, but what I remember seeing him play was Right Guard for the Eagles.
Forget playing tackle, he has not PLAYED in years.
He had a major injury.
The best player on the team is always the backup quarterback – UNTIL HE PLAYS. And then people realize why the staff had him as th backup.
I am all for giving Andrews a chance, but I am not going to annoint him our new LT. I would think that the coaching staff knows a bit about them both, and if Diehl was so godawfull and Andrews so awesome, they would have already made the switch. Maybe they are trying to work Andrews into shape, getting him to know our calls and such and are evaluating his back. What so many are forgetting is that Diehl has played next to Seubert for years, they know each others games. Andrews is a newbie, it will take time.
Andrews is fine in the role he is in, let it go at that. For all the negatives of Diehl, I don’t feel overall that Eli’s life has been in danger. In fact, what I remember is that he has had plenty of time in the pocket. +.1 -0.4 -.08 +1 – Barf.
by dubsrub on Oct 14, 2010 9:12 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don't totally agree
I would think that the coaching staff knows a bit about them both, and if Diehl was so godawfull and Andrews so awesome, they would have already made the switch
One of TC’s biggest assets is also one of his faults. He’s very loyal. He likes things status quo. It seems he doesn’t like change. Coaches can be stubborn. They’ll keep pounding the rock because they feel they’ve should be successful.
Our run defense vs Colts was getting chewed up. How long did it take to adjust? In the same game Diehl was getting abused. They rarely gave him any help in that game. To me that’s either stupidity or stubbornness.
"I don't do many endorsements. I'd rather get doused by Gatorade than bust my butt selling it." - Bill Parcells
Andrews played some LT against the Texans when Diehl was hurt
and looked no better than Diehl, worse actually. On his first snap at LT he almost fell over just trying to get out of his stance into pass protection at the snap. The fact that as soon as Diehl was feeling ok he went back in and took Andrews back off the field tells you soemthing right there. If Andrews had been some magic bullet when plugged in he wouldn’t have come back off the field. Andrews has been doing a respectable job playing as a speciality use 3rd TE. It’s great that he has made some contributions, but playing as the 3rd TE on select plays is a far cry from being the starting LT or having shown anything to say that he can be the starting LT.
Good point re Andrews.
I’d like to see him as a stalwart OLT, but are the Giants so desperate (or is Diehl so bad?) that the Giants would experiment witn Andrews during the season? IMO, Diehl has been a bit less than adequate and maybe Beatty can take over when he’s fit.
Seeing Goff coming through at MLB gives me hope that maybe Beatty can come through as planned as well. I’m quite skeptical that he can, at least this year. Maybe the best the Giants can do is what they’ve been doing, namely the best they can with what they’ve got.
To make this point more clear
The one game the Giants got spanked, we were down 24-0 at the half. We couldn’t get anything going on offense because Eli didn’t have 2 seconds to throw the ball because David Diehl (and McKenzie for that matter) was too busy getting humiliated. Wonder if the game would have been different with Andrews in there in place of Diehl.
by NYStateofMind on Oct 13, 2010 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Don't think it would've been much different
Mathis and Freeney are probably the 2 most unique DEs in the NFL. On that day, Andrews probably would’ve gotten torched.
Winning cures all...even stupid
by FreeBradshaw on Oct 14, 2010 7:37 AM EDT up reply actions
of course,
unique is an absolute term; on either is unique or is not, and cannot be more or less unique.
Okay I made myself laugh
what I meant to say was BOOOOOOO
You play to win the game!
by Simms-McConkey on Oct 14, 2010 7:43 AM EDT up reply actions
Boss
I truly believe if boss was in the game only one of freeney or mathis would have wrecked eli.
All you hear about is the past, the past... the past is the !@#$ing past, this is the present.
THIS IS TEMPORARY! A CHAMPIONSHIP IS PERMANENT
-Michael Strahan
that too.
the teams has been completely different passing and running since Boss has come back.
Probably the most underrated player on the team.
Winning cures all...even stupid
by FreeBradshaw on Oct 14, 2010 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Freeney has the best technique at RDE in the game
Great spin, power, and speed moves. Possibly the best I’ve ever seen.
Of course, the LDE equivalent is Strahan.
agreed.
Antrel Rolle is as big a reason as any that the D is doing what it is. Andrews is basically playing backup TE. Which is good and helping the running game, especially to the left side where they couldn’t run at all when he wasn’t in there.
But Rolle is worth every penny he’s making.
Winning cures all...even stupid
by FreeBradshaw on Oct 14, 2010 7:35 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm telling you..
This defense is giving me a bad case of “Turf Dick”…a “Sudden upper extension of my knob”…“Honey lookie here!!”
"When I was a boy and had no sense I got my pecker stuck in an electric fence..Well it curled my hair and tickled my balls, and made me shit in my overalls"
Hope...
that the next off-season or two, the Giants do for the O-line what they did for the D-line the past two years. Free agents and draft picks. Nothing wrong with our running backs or Eli, just that aging O-line.
I hope only draft picks
Need to spend our money resigning our own guys (Cofield, Kiwi, etc.).
That would be great
but normal O-linemen don’t just step into the NFL ready to play (e.g. Will Beaty), unless they’re high 1st round picks. Then the price tag is going to be hefty anyway, for a guy who’s not even proven. Giants need some immediate help up front if the O-line wants to keep pace with the rest of the team and keep us in title contention for the next 5+ years. Andrews was a bit of a fluke who luckily fell in our laps. Hopefully we can trust JR to find some proven free agents out there that could help but won’t break the bank… along with several picks to bolster depth.
by NYStateofMind on Oct 14, 2010 12:07 AM EDT up reply actions
OL readiness
Read it somewhere once, OL draft picks are more likely to start their first year than any other position.
It all depends on Beatty. If we need another LT, that will be expensive in FA. RTs are significantly cheaper (except for McKenzie). We may be able to get a decent center at a good price, but the supply is usually low.
In a perfect world
let me repeat that…in a perfect world:
We’ve already found our future Center (Koets)
We have our future LT (Beatty)
We have a former 3x Pro Bowler who’s currently a swing man and is only turning 28 in Dec. who could be a G or T (Andrews)
A starting caliber “depth” guy (Petrus)
in a non perfect world.
The Giants don’t think Koets is the future and chose to fill the void via an early draft pick or FA
Beatty doesn’t pan out
Andrews gets hurt
Petrus turns into Boothe 2.0….a “non starting caliber depth” guy.
"We need to get him some more game experience and see him make decisions on the run. But I think he's earned the opportunity." - Eli Manning
"If I'm curt, then I apologize" - Newman
thinking about it now....
Beatty doesn’t “pan out”…means he probably goes to RT. Or just stays at LT and plays at the same level as Diehl.
Kind of a win / win situation for him. Yet oddly enough, he didn’t win the job coming out of camp. I’m wondering if he hadn’t broke his foot if he would be starting….say, like 3 weeks ago?
Oh well, i hope the injury hasn’t set him back too far. I really hope he can come back and get plugged into the offense…as a starting LT.
"We need to get him some more game experience and see him make decisions on the run. But I think he's earned the opportunity." - Eli Manning
"If I'm curt, then I apologize" - Newman
I vote for optimism
I think either Diehl or Andrews can play RT or LG. As former guards, RT fits their skill set better, and their experience at LT will help.
It all comes down to Beatty. I really hope we get to see him in action by the end of the year.
But Reality Bites
I’m not conceding the season here, but that Colts game REALLY exposed our weakness. And if Beaty is good, you’d think he would’ve nailed the job down prior to the season, especially considering how weak Diehl is. Hopefully the solution is somewhere there and my bet is if anywhere it will be in Andrews. If the solution is not on the roster, I find it hard to believe the Giants will be “Super” this year.
by NYStateofMind on Oct 14, 2010 12:30 AM EDT up reply actions
I keep hearing that about Beatty
But his college team had the run/pass splits almost of an option team. He had limited pass protection experience. That’s what knocked him back in the draft.
Left tackle and guard are very different positions. We should all be thanking Diehl for doing as well as he has been. Diehl played well last year – Ware can’t beat him. Coughlin went with the proven player. And Beatty got hurt, so once Diehl had some bad games, he could not be replaced.
Ah yes
must be the sabemetrics of pro football, as I will rename hearafter:
Pro Football Folly
Look folks, if an O Lineman allows a couple pressures, and the QB doesn’t get sacked, not going to get all up in arms over it, or some subjective negative grade, sighs!
"No one played more for the Giants, while being coached less".
Ex-Giants coach, Steve Owens, talking about Mel Hein.
It's not about being up in arms
But why are people so annoyed with stuff like this? It’s not like the numbers are pulled out of nowhere, they’re produced by actually watching the game and paying attention to each player, which is more than the average fan does.
Like Frank said below, it’s not an exact science, but it gives us a good tool to evaluate how a player plays in comparison to other guys at his position. And sure if an O Lineman performs how you described, I won’t get up in arms, but I’d sure as heck like to know if there’s a better option around; and I trust numbers like this over my own judgment. I watch for entertainment, not player evaluation, so I miss the run of the mill plays that PFF watches more closely.
I couldn't DISAGREE more
if an O Lineman allows a couple pressures, and the QB doesn’t get sacked not going to get all up in arms over it
In many cases I’d rather take the sack than throw an INT. Over the years, many of Eli’s INTs were cause because he was pressured. This season, all 3 of Eli’s non-tipped INTs were caused by pressure. The same can be said about all QBs. You give a QB time they’ll rip apart a defense.
In the SB vs Pats yes we had 5 sacks but how many times was Brady pressured and/or knocked down? It’s naive to suggest an Oline allowing pressure isn’t a problem.
"I don't do many endorsements. I'd rather get doused by Gatorade than bust my butt selling it." - Bill Parcells
I agree
I rather see a sack than an interception, I didn’t mention interceptions did I?
If you are going to quote me in boldface, at least know what i said. My point was more about
PFF, I said subjective, you said arbitrary, dealing in semantics my friend.
"No one played more for the Giants, while being coached less".
Ex-Giants coach, Steve Owens, talking about Mel Hein.
by Great Gatsby on Oct 16, 2010 7:29 AM EDT up reply actions
My 2 cents on PFF
It’s not an exact science. It’s arbitrary. It’s impossible to accurately grade each player on every play.
However, it’s a useful tool to analyze how players perform. Most fans only only see the great plays or terrible plays. We don’t notice the plays where a player is performing his role on a given play.
Diehl is a good example. Unlike other positions it’s easy grading the Oline. They are in view for most plays. Most thought Diehl had a good game. I posted he had an OK game. In each of the first three offensive series vs Texans he had a terrible play. On the first offensive play of the game he probably scored a -2. He was pushed back 3 yards into Bradshaw on a running play. Bradshaw lost 4 yards. In the next series the Texans Dline stunted. Diehl totally missed it. His guy was untouched knocking down Eli.
"I don't do many endorsements. I'd rather get doused by Gatorade than bust my butt selling it." - Bill Parcells
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