More turbulence ahead for the Giants
by Ed Valentine on Jan 7, 2010 2:41 PM EST
in New York Giants News
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PrintThe blogosphere is aflame this afternoon with speculation that the New York Giants organization may face a whole lot more upheaval this off-season than just the shuffling of the deck of defensive coaches.
First, reports are everywhere that Giants director of college scouting Marc Ross is a candidate to become general manager for the Seattle Seahawks. Mike Garafolo has confirmed that Ross will interview for the position next week.
I don't really know anything about Ross. I do know, however, that the Giants are approaching a critical draft this spring. Losing the guy in charge of their scouting operation can't be a good thing.
Then, my pal Ernie Palladino reported that Giants quarterbacks coach Chris Palmer could be in line to become offensive coordinator in Buffalo.
That could be a double-whammy for the Giants, especially since Palmer would likely be the natural choice to become Giants offensive coordinator if Kevin Gilbride were to land the head-coaching job in Oakland.
Ernie put it this way.
This probably wouldn't be a real good thing for the Giants as a team or Eli Manning as a quarterback. A lot of the credit for turning Manning into a 4,000-yard passer this year has gone to offensive coordinator Kevin Gilbride, and rightly so. But the other component was Palmer, who is regarded as one of the strongest, most imaginative handlers of quarterbacks in the league.
There are already rumors that Gilbride could be a frontrunner for the Oakland job if Al Davis jettisons Tom Cable. The thought of losing both Gilbride and Palmer could be devastating to a staff that has already experienced some major upheaval on the other side of the ball, and should expect more in the days and weeks to come.
Stay tuned. The off-season fun has just begun.
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Marc Ross....
let him interview…
right after holding that job JR came out and had himself a helluva draft.
Ross comes in and IMO we had a below average draft.
Let him interview….
Time for JR to get “hands on”
"If you don't know what you're doing... just rush the quarterback" - LT
KG isn't sure to leave
The nightmare scenario is Palmer leaves first THEN KG gets the Oakland job. That would leave the Giants having to completely rebuild the offensive coaching staff, too. Say what you will about KG, that is not something they want to have to do.
Would like to see KG stay
overall he’s done a good job but he lobbied for the Oakland job last year, requesting a meeting with Davis. If Davis wants him, he’s as good as gone.
But I think Jolly's point is ...
that if the Giants have mixed feelings about KG, and would want to promote Palmer if they decide to can KG, then pull the trigger to avoid that nightmare scenario.
I think we had that “nightmare” once before – Belichick to Cleveland, and then Parcells decides to quit >>>>>>> Handley disaster.
Thanks Shof
you made my murky point better than I did.
There are unintended consequences...
When you tank games like they did, expect anything and everything. This could be devastating but it could have been avoided by players playing and a little more flexibility from the coaching staff. To think, we were setting the foundation for a potential dynasty after ’07.
coughlin
let me preface this comment first by saying i’m in the “keep coughlin” camp.
however, if TC loses coordinators on both sides of the ball and half his position staff it might be a good a time as any for him to resign and retire. it can’t be pleasant for him in this situation, having to replace so many people and waiting for things to shake out.
Gilbride....
Gilbride is the worst! 3rd and long draw plays, running in the red zone and essentially throwing the towel to a unproven defense. I’ve had it with him. My wife can call a defense against him, she honestly knows what he will be running on certain 3rd down situations. They should turn their attention to keeping Palmer and making him the new O coordinator.
Wait a minute........losing Gilbride would be "devestating"????
Yeah, right – so “devestating” that I’d throw a party with a dozen cases of Bollinger if that actualled happened.
“Devestating”!! HA!! What a joke.
I wouldn't have minded so much if Weiss were still available
b/c I think he’s one of the best offensive minds in the game. But now, I’d be a bit nervous about it.
2009 Did Not Happen
Eli
should be at the point now where he is stable with or without Palmer. Regarding KG, I don’t feel adamant about his going or staying, except as Ed points out, his going would be a further disruption to the Giants revamping process. On the other hand, KG leaving could be helpful, because no one seems to think KG is anything more than adequate. Surely the Giants can replace an adequate coach.
I hear you, Jolly
Again, the scary thing here is that Palmer IS the replacement for Gilbride. If they lose both guys, then they have to start with a new offensive system. Offense is not the problem, so this is something they don’t want to have to deal with.
You're probably right Ed
about losing both not being something they want to deal with. I guess I just can’t get myself over into the ‘devastatiing’ camp of thinking…..probably because I’m still PO’d about the season in general. I remember one of the biggest problems for Eli’s dad was the constant changing of OC’s throughout his entire career.
Yeah, at first, it was a head scratcher about being devastating to lose both
I’m not going to bash about, about them, but i can see Ed’s point about implementing a new system entirely. I thought that as the season unfolded, KG was starting to be the least of our problems if he left one way or another. But then again, OAKLAND? KG, thats career suicide if you ask me!
As for Palmer, i can see the cheap promotion and keeping a certain cohesiveness with Eli, and the system entact. But overall, i still don’t get the feeling of “we need to retain these guys at all cost” type of feeling! I could be wrong, but i can’t help to feel this way?!
KG and Palmer
My biggest knock on TC is the coordinators he chooses. Besides Spags which everyone would agree was a great move, who did he hire? John Hufnagel, Tim Lewis, Kevin Gilbride, Bill Sheridan??? Not exactly knockin em dead
coughlin .. another view
Let me preface this by saying I’m for the ‘release Coughling now camp’.
Since everyone has been singing the praises of TC for so long now, what’s the big deal if he loses all these coordinators? He’s the winner of the SB only 2 years ago; obviously above any turmoil or flux .. so let him use his extraordinary and motivational coaching skills with the new DC/OC and any assistants to keep the train on the tracks?
I’m being devil’s advocate here, but despite any changes, I don’t see this as an excuse for TC. This is what he’s getting paid for.
Go Gmen
Coughlin is "On Notice"
Considering the context of Mara’s comments the other day, I think it’s safe to say that Mara has placed Cough on notice. Meaning he has next season to fix this. If the Giants swoon again as soon as the calendar flips to Nov/Dec I think it’s safe to say that Coughlin will no longer be coaching this team.
Think I’m wrong?
Look at the remaining time on his contract: two more years remaining (I mentioned this the other day). If the Giants choke again late in the season, Mara & Co. WILL NOT tack on more time to Coughlin’s contract nor will they let him coach this team as a “lame duck” at the top. Translation: Coughlin has next year to perform.
So like him or not, things will change next year: either the GMen perform or Coughlin is out.
Honelsty if your're going to get rid of head coach
2011 seems to be the year, because Cowher is holding out till then, John Fox’s contract expires, andd Gruden might be available. I’m not suggesting I want TC fired or do I think he should be but there might be better HC canadates next year so lets see if TC can turn things around.
Mangini
is staying as Browns coach so that will stop some of the domino effect.
Did the Colts not lose both their coordinators at the start of the season? If they did the team really suffered by going 14-0…
Coaches moving is part of the NFL..you lose good ones you can bad ones.
I say let anyone go who wants to move unless we have a role for them ie can KG to keep Palmer.
by G Fan in England on Jan 7, 2010 4:09 PM EST reply actions
To expound on my point...
Something that has been troubling to me re: Coughlin’s late season swoons:
I think it’s safe to say that this team has had some serious trouble maintaining a high level of play at the end of the season. That simply must be addressed. Is Coughlin practicing too hard? Are guys tuning out the message? What is happening to this team late in the season? 2007 was the anomaly. Every other season has been marred by really poor late season play.
Check out the giants under Coughlin. This is really startling.
2009: started 5-0 and struggled to 3-8 after the hot start, ended up at 8-8 (missed playoffs)
2008: started 11-1 and then dropped 3 of 4 with the lone win in that stretch an OT win over a desperate Carolina team ended at 11-5 (1st rd bye, lost in 2nd round)
2007: started 6-2 then went 4-4 over the 2nd half of the schedule, including ending the season winning 1 out of 3 gms (struggling win @ Buffalo) to bring record to 10-6 (won Super Bowl)
2006: started 6-2 and then went 1-6 before beating the Wash Redskins (with nothing to play for) in the finale to finish at 8-8, backed into the playoffs (lost in 1st round)
2005: started 6-2 and then went 4-3 to close out the year (10-5 record, lost 23-0 in the playoffs)
2004: started 5-2 and then lost 8 in a row. Finished at 6-10
I am a Coughlin supporter – but this is definitely alarming. What’s going on with this team that they aren’t built to win in November/December? It would be one thing if this were an anomaly….but this has been happening every year that Coughlin has been the head coach.
What gives?
adjustments
Great point(s) Cody.
I think the Team (and coaches) came in with a solid work ethic, and strategy. Unfortunately, everyone learns very fast and soon after, your tendencies are known, accounted for, and for the most part neutralized.
We needed to evolve, to adjust.
What impressed me about the 2007 SB run, was that the offense played a quick passing style, mixed with a solid run game. Unlike anything I noticed that they had played earlier on in season. They adjusted, and opponents didn’t have the time to game plan around that. The Pats almost did, but Belicik can plan a Defensive strategy.
This year, it was frustrating how obvious the calls were, and how little the game plan evolved not only week to week, but even after halftime.
Go Gmen
All solid points
I actually think the injuries to guys like Ward & SHockey HELPED in 07 becasue all of a sudden Smitty was a factor on third downs in the slot where all season long the Giants did not have a slot guy until the postseason. Also Teams had not seen Bradshaw nor Boss so I think it gave the O a bit of a different look heading into the playoffs.
2004
Was eli’s rookie year.
Can’t expect them to light the world, especially because that was the year the Eagles went to the superbowl
Never assume skill at bouncing a ball makes you smarter than the guy who built the court.
When there's a WILL there's a WAY
I think TC runs a tough training camp
so guys come out ready and more prepared than other teams but I think they run out of gass. Look at that 04 team. They sucked for the most part but were 5-3 through 8 games, how the hell did that happen?
as compared to Philly they always look very mediorce the first half of the year then win like 7 out of 8 and all 4 in December to make the playoffs. But then unexplicetley when you least expect it the put up one of their early season eggs in a big playoff game and look mediorce once again.
SD looks downright awful the first 8 or 9 weeks then they are the best team in the league the rest of the way.
It does seem wierd doesn’t it? But my theory is the Giants just run a better traing camp and then run out of steam and what giants013 said they don’t adust and other teams figure them out.
We need to let it all play out..Losing both would be a hurdle, but TC can take over the offense...if need be..
And get a guy in to teach..Gilbride isn’t going anywhere anyway..Anybody that thinks he is HC caliber is nuts.. We’ll have just as many options to pick and choose as any other team will..This is not the end of the world here..We need to focus on defense, let the cards fall where they may and deal with it…Our offense with the QB we have and the receiving core that will only get better and healthy runners?..It’s defense guys..defense.
um
“Anybody that thinks he is HC caliber is nuts”
i’d like you to mister al davis.
Sorry cntr don't understand what your comment meant..
Unless it meant that old fart Davis would want KG…that is not out the realm of possibility..
Oakland
is the only place that gilbride has been linked to, and Big Al is:
a) insane
b) obsessed with offense
if gilbride goes in there and promises to fix jamarcus russel, davis will hire him
It would be....
a preemptive move to keep the same system here….and something I would be extremely interested in exploring.
only thing is….will Palmer ignore the TE? not utilize Beckum? have failure to score in the red zone?….or will he actually improve things here.
I just feel like KG’s game plan is to do a 5 step drop and throw to your WR. It’s generic, almost transparent….
a little change is not alwasy a bad thing….it’s just a shame that this is happening while we’re cleaning house on defense….don’t know if TC is going to want to change both coordinators. But he may be forced too should Davis fire Cable and choose KG.
"If you don't know what you're doing... just rush the quarterback" - LT
who knows....
maybe JR can pull Palmer aside and just say “hey….keep me posted….and don’t do anything stupid until you talk to me first”.
Nothing like using an offer to leverage your current situation!!!
but yeah, i doubt it. I don’t see TC firing both Coordinators.
"If you don't know what you're doing... just rush the quarterback" - LT
Is Palmer really qualified to be the OC?
Outside of helping the Qb’s has he ever actually run an offense?
by giant fan since 57 on Jan 7, 2010 6:44 PM EST up reply actions
Palmer
was Coughlin’s offensive coordinator for two seasons in Jacksonville. He was also OC in Houston from 2002-2005. If KG somehow got the Oakland job I’m certain TC would like to just hand over play-calling to Palmer so that the entire offensive structure does not change.
I don't like the fact that
this COULD happen when there’s an upheaval on defense either, simply because TC’s focus is going to be split two ways. He’ll have to make adjustments and get oriented with 2 new coordinators, and that detracts from him doing his job. We all know that he’s going to have to focus on the defense, but even if Chris Palmer becomes OC, its a far cry from straight continuity with what Gilbride had.
Jerry Reese = Omar Minaya?
by BigBlueIntervention on Jan 7, 2010 5:40 PM EST up reply actions
Its just...
I’m sure Eli would at least like some continuity.
It seems Palmer’s more likely to leave…but Gilbride may leave too.
Why not just give Palmer the job..and let Gilbride piss off into the sunset?
N8 !
Thats just it with Palmer
He’s been with at least a half-dozen teams, but he’s also been canned too. So even if we lose both, theres nothing we can do about it, but hire new guys, learn and adapt. For all we know, it could be a good thing?!
Hmmm..Maybe we can bring Cable in...
To beat the shit out of the rest of the coaches.
Laughed out loud
You play to win the game!
by Simms-McConkey on Jan 8, 2010 8:11 AM EST up reply actions
hmmm......even better!
I’d take that fat slob Wade Phillips as our DC..there’s no doubt that porker knows defense.
There’s not as many Blimpie’s in NYC as there are in the Fort Worth area…so maybe if we build it..Wade will come?
N8 !
Maybe we could have a Blimpies concession in the new stadium...
And does anyone know whether or not Wades head-set is actually plugged in to anything?..I have never seen him ever talk into it..I think it is one of those AM/FM radio things.
Bobbi
I’m pretty sure he’s listening to one of those self-affirmation tapes subtitled ‘How to be a coach for Jerry Jones and still respect yourself tomorrow’.
i say get rid of tom c too and clean house
bring in bill c as head coach and charlie wiese as oc and Romeo Crennel as dc
by freakynjbifemandhubby on Jan 7, 2010 6:16 PM EST reply actions
Wies is gone.
Cowher is overrated…
and Crennel has a chance.
Hey…1/3 in baseball gets in in the hall of fame!
N8 !
cowher
is a super bowl winning coach. why would we not want to hire him? what has coughlin done? oh wait.
grass is greener syndrome
good head coach, but credentials not all that different than the guy we already have.
credentials may not be different, but Cowher's and TC's coaching styles are worlds apart...
I don’t get all of the anti-Cowher bias on this board. The guy often did a lot with very little in a small market, and established a brand of football — one that closely resembled ours in our glory days — stingy defense, power running game. The guy is a great “player’s coach”, a great motivator, and his system has produced countless players who have gone on to have pro bowl careers both in Pittsburgh and beyond. His ability to keep them competitive year in and year out in the free agency era is noteworthy. He turned around a proud, classy organization that had sagged throughout the 80s in the late Noll years and returned them instantly to respectability in 1992 where they have remained since.
by Step up and make big plays on Jan 7, 2010 7:12 PM EST up reply actions
i'm not sure
its really anti-cowher bias. more anti-dump coughlin in favor of cowher bias. the guy’s a great coach but there’s still no need to dump a proven commodity for another guy. its possible cowher remains a free agent into next year, when coughlin might be on his way out for one reason or another.
Cowher
very good coach, but I really wouldn’t be surprised if he’s Mike Ditka 2.0 – 1 Super Bowl win but considered amongst the elite coaches in the league, retires for a few years to do TV, comes back b/c “why the hell not” but just doesn’t have the same fire, isn’t terrible but isn’t what he used to be, and eventually goes back to the booth without really accomplishing anything in his second stint.
2009 Did Not Happen
yes
just make a patchwork wish list of discontiguous names. That’s the solution.
You play to win the game!
by Simms-McConkey on Jan 8, 2010 8:12 AM EST up reply actions
I'm tired of seeing the same look and reaction out of coach tom
we could be winning by 50 or losing by 70 and you get the same thing….i wanna see a guy get in your face when you screw up and praise you when you do better then expected…. spags had that spark….fox had the get in your face style … ok wies in gone how about AP has coach player under Bill C overseeing the D. play book
by freakynjbifemandhubby on Jan 7, 2010 6:28 PM EST reply actions
LOL!!!...If he dressed in a hooded fur parka..
He’d look like an Eskimo Chieftain…..
there's something to be said
for decency and tact. if a guy screws up in a game, he knows…everyone knows it. its not gonna help much by berating him on the sidelines in front of the entire team and on camera.
if there’s a discussion to be had, it should be behind closed doors. TC is a class act and a pro, and handles these things in house.
not when your making the same mistake
not when your making the same mistake go and over again…and when your maken millions doing
by freakynjbifemandhubby on Jan 7, 2010 7:16 PM EST up reply actions
I don't understand why people are so concerned at the way our players and coaches look after things...
I mean..people always and still do rip Eli for his reactions…and now Coughlin too?
Who the hell cares how he looks when something happens?
I remember Coughlin making himself look like even more of a fool when Kiwaunuka didn’t tackle Vince Young one game.
Coughlin hasn’t been that crazy on the sideline since.
Cowher’s overrated. He’d done ABSOLUTELY NOTHING BETTER THEN COUGHLIN…
N8 !
revisionist history
is always kind. cowher went out on top, so that’s all people seem to remember about him.
so did Elway...
…he also lost three super bowls.
by Step up and make big plays on Jan 7, 2010 10:18 PM EST up reply actions
Sheesh, Fb,
Cowher’s way better thanTC at spitting.
You right on George..Cowher can certainly out-spit anyone..
That’s why they have them towels in the stands for the fans to wipe off the overspray..
Bill always had a good defence..
year in and year out he put out a good D…like the Gmen were years back….Cowher led the Steelers to the playoffs in each of his first six seasons, a feat that had been accomplished only by legendary coach Paul Brown of the Cleveland Browns. Overall, Cowher led the Steelers to the playoffs in 10 of his 15 seasons, including an appearance in Super Bowl XXX on the strength of the “Blitzburgh” defense at the end of the 1995 season. However, the Steelers lost to the Dallas Cowboys. Cowher produced the franchise’s record-tying fifth Super Bowl win in Super Bowl XL over the National Football Conference champion Seattle Seahawks ten years later. With that victory, the Steelers became the third team to win five Super Bowls, and the first sixth-seeded playoff team to reach and win the Super Bowl since the NFL expanded to a 12-team post-season tournament in 1990
by freakynjbifemandhubby on Jan 7, 2010 6:33 PM EST reply actions
Giants have had pretty good D's aside from this year too...
again…Cowher has done ABSOLUTELY NOTHING MORE THEN COUGHLIN….
N8 !
hes the guy to get our D back
our D is what the giants are…..has always been
by freakynjbifemandhubby on Jan 7, 2010 7:14 PM EST reply actions
TC and his coordinators (pattern)
aside from Spag, the coordinators tc hired are pretty dumb! i think tc likes coordinators that is a “yes, sir” type to him because tc is a control freak. he’d rather hire from in house, his system, or previous coaches under him vs more talented coaches out there. he was lucky he got spags the previous years.
that's how it works
head coaches are always, by definition control freaks. when they need to hire a staff they stick with guys who they know and work well with.
parcells did it, belicheck did it…look at kansas city now and how they’re building patriots west there or steelers south in arizona.
Most of the credit for turning Manning into a 4,000 yard passer should go to the defense for putting them so far behind in games and giving up so many points this season and after that you can look at the fact the running game wasn’t nearly as good as the previous couple seasons. I wouldn’t lose any sleep if I were in the Giants camp should either Gilbride or Palmer leave.
The more changes the better for the Giants this off season the team needs a major face lift from the previous few seasons and especially after the 2nd half of the season collapse and embarrassing final 2 games.
Well, your right about being behind and forced to throw..
But the silver lining at least is it helped grow our young core of receivers, who should be a very dangerous group for opponents to deal with next year..In fact, I don’t see how anybody will be able to defend them all at the same time…Smith, Nicks, Mario, Barden (he’ll be a force), and Boss??..How do you prepare to cover all of that?..Throw in a healthy set of running backs..and our offense is going to blow people away..We need to fix the defense and prevent these godawful shoot-outs and we’ll be back stronger than ever.
KG Lova!
Giants have been a top 10 offense each of the last two years. I have had absolutely no opinion on gilbride, but the trendy “I hate KG” talk amongst giants fans is getting annoying and is making me actually side with him. and Ed don’t follow every comment about KG with “Say what you will about Gilbride…”. Just ignore the haters the same way they ignore the statistics.
So your saying its all to Gilbride’s credit that we had a top 10 defense? Why because he such a offensive genius? His play calling is amazing where does he come up with these things? Is giving BJ 10-15 carries a game give them the best chance to win? Not to knock you or anything but I mean who knows, without him it could be a top 5 offense…
What In The World
I’m sorry but are you guys stuck in a time warp?? We don’t live in a world where a power running game game and big speedy linebackers are necessary to win a Super Bowl. This isn’t the 80’s. Everyone references the “glory days” as if things are bad right now. Remember, we went 4 years between super bowls after winning in 86. There were some first round exits in the years after that SB win.
It’s not realistic to expect a team to win the SB every year. Our defense was bad all year. Realistically, like the team, we thought we were better than we actually were all year. People are saying that we should blow it up and start from scratch yet they want to be contenders next year. The Giants have been one of the most consistent teams over the past 5 seasons because they have had continuity. Prior to this year, only them and the Colts had been in the playoffs four consecutive seasons. Each team won one superbowl, that’s something to be proud of. You don’t blow up a team like that, you re-tool and re-launch.
by DaWriter on Jan 8, 2010 7:18 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Wasn't he a defensive guy?
Never assume skill at bouncing a ball makes you smarter than the guy who built the court.
When there's a WILL there's a WAY
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