New York Giants position breakdowns: Corner back
by Ed Valentine on Jan 24, 2010 7:00 AM EST
in New York Giants News
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PrintIn our continuing series of New York Giants position-by-position breakdowns let's turn our attention to a defensive position where the news is not all bad. It isn't great, either, but it's not all bad. That position would be corner back.
The good news is there is talent to work with at corner with Terrell Thomas, Corey Webster, Bruce Johnson and Aaron Ross. The bad news, of course, is that not all of those guys played well -- or much at all -- in 2009.
Let's look at each player individually.
Terrell Thomas: Let's dispense with the thought of moving Thomas to safety right now. I think that would be a terrible mistake by the Giants. Yes, maybe Thomas has the skills to play safety. And yes, the Giants need help there. But Thomas just had a breakout season that placed him among the best corner backs in the league. Do you really want to mess with that? I don't.
Why try to solve one problem by creating another one? Do you really trust Aaron Ross as a starting corner back? I didn't think so. Personally, I think keeping Ross at safety might be the best idea. Or sliding him into the nickel corner role. But, I will discuss that more later. Back to Thomas.
Pro Football Focus (yes, I love to refer to PFF stats to judge defensive players) graded Thomas the 8th best corner in the league for 2009, with a +8.6 rating. Incidentally, that is one spot below Denver's Champ Bailey and FOUR SPOTS AHEAD of Oakland's renowned shut down corner Nnamdi Asomugha (+5.0).
Thomas, in his second season, had 85 tackles, six interceptions and 11 passes defensed. He was pretty much the only Giants defensive back who seemed to have a clue how to make a play on the ball. PFF's quarterback rating for balls thrown into Thomas' coverage area was 71.3, placing him 16th in the league. Just for grins, Asomugha was 35th (98.2).
So, with Thomas looking like a budding star at corner why would you mess with that? Leave him alone, and corner back is one spot the Giants should not have to worry about for a while.
Corey Webster: Webster had a breakout season in 2008 following his terrific play in the 2007 post-season. In 2008 he was an elite, shut-down corner. According to PFF, he was easily the league's highest-rated cover corner at +23.2. Darrelle Revis of the Jets was second at +12.5. Quarterbacks throwing at Webster in 2008 had only a 41.2 rating.
In 2009, however, Webster did not repeat his stellar performance of the previous season. Without looking at the numbers, we can remember he got torched by several elite receivers when then-defensive coordinator Bill Sheridan trusted him in one-on-one match-ups. He ended the season with 51 tackles, just one interception and 12 passes defensed.
His coverage grade slipped to +3.9, 25th in the league. Not bad, but not what the Giants expected. Or needed.
Perhaps in 2010 some of those big, physical receivers who seem to trouble Webster will be handled by Thomas. Whether that is the case or not, the Giants need better, more opportunistic play from him in 2010.
Kevin Dockery: A four-year veteran who probably played his way out of New York by losing his job to undrafted free agent Bruce Johnson. At 5-foot-8, 188 pounds Dockery is a smallish corner who has never really been a huge play maker and should not be that difficult to replace.
Aaron Ross: The past couple of seasons have not been kind to Ross. In 2009, a series of hamstring injuries limited the 2007 No. 1 pick to just three games, all at safety. In 2008, Ross played 15 games but did not perform particularly well. If you recall, it seems he spent most of the season a step or two behind trying desperately to catch up to receivers who already had the ball.
In 2009, PFF rated Ross 102nd out of 114 graded corners overall, with a poor mark of -10.9. On coverage skills alone, Ross was 86th with a -4.0 rating.
I am not willing to completely give up on Ross, the 20th pick in the 2007 draft. But I think you have to face the reality that he is not going to be the top-flight corner the Giants envisioned. What hurts more is that Revis was taken 14th in the same draft by the Jets, just a few picks ahead of Ross.
I see two roles for Ross in 2010. As the nickel corner. Or, staying at safety where he saw some time in 2009. We would definitely upgrade the speed and coverage ability at that spot. Possibly, Ross will end up in an R.W. McQuarters type role, playing some at both spots.
Bruce Johnson: The undrafted rookie free agent from Miami played a lot more than anyone could have expected. He got burned on occasion, but did OK. He beat out Dockery and finished the season with an adequate +0.3 rating. He probably gets a chance to make the team as an extra corner in 2010.
D.J. Johnson: Played some inconsequential snaps at the end of the season. Did not show much to my recollection. If he is back in 2010 it is likely as a training camp body. I don't see a role for him on the 53-man roster in 2010.
Keep: Webster, Thomas, Ross, Bruce Johnson
Dump: Dockery, D.J. Johnson
Draft/Free Agency Priority (1 being the highest, 5 the lowest): 3. If a talented corner is on the board at some point that the Giants feel they can't pass up I'm fine with that. I would think that at the least a veteran corner who is an upgrade from Dockery is necessary. This priority is also subject to change if the Giants decide to keep Ross at safety.
- Wide receiver
- Tight end
- Offensive line
- Running back
- Fullback
- Quarterback
- Defensive tackle
- Defensive end
- Middle linebacker
- Outside linebacker
(E-mail Ed at bigblueview@gmail.com)
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Two additional questions at CB ...
1. Does Ross finally have his head screwed on straight. I seem to remember he said he had a real lack of desire to play the game back in 2008. If he’s back into it again, I like the idea of Fewell using him more at S, or as a hybrid.
2. How suited are our CB’s for a more zone-oriented D ? Are we even sure that Fewell is going in that direction. I had always felt the last few years like we had better man-to-man skills with our CB’s, although Sheridan’s D seemed to make everything look bad.
Answers
1. Ross — We don’t know where his head is at right now. I do like the idea of using Ross in the nickel and dime packages, and having him able to play corner and safety.
2. Zone — We don’t know right now what Fewell will do. I always look at it this way — if you can play man, you should be able to play zone. It’s just a matter of being disciplined enough to learn your assignment.
by Ed Valentine on Jan 24, 2010 9:00 AM EST up reply actions
Ed, what about an answer for this
Do you know where his hammy is? Thats why i agree with the 3 rating. Ross and his inability to stay healthy! Though a sevicable FA vet could be a stop-gap measure if need be.
Ross' hammy
I think he has been looking for it for about a year. Maybe he left it at Texas. Maybe Brett Favre is using it. Seriously, no one knows right now how healthy Ross will be.
by Ed Valentine on Jan 24, 2010 12:42 PM EST up reply actions
my $0.02..
dump, as in trade, ross while he has some sort of value….him questioning his dedication and drive is a huge red flag and to me i would think he is less likely to go the extra mile to get healthy and improve his work ethic and take the proper steps necessary to prevent injury and get stronger…if i was him and had no drive and wanted to get out of football i would consistently have a lingering injury like a hammy and continue to collect a paycheck, not that he was faking an injury but when you dont know if you want to play anymore and have an injury how hard are you gonna work to get back to doing something you dont want to do…kinda like football welfare
by LT's Will Power on Jan 24, 2010 3:11 PM EST up reply actions
What value does he have?
He was awful in 2008, and barely played in 2009. Nobody is going to give you anything for Ross.
by Ed Valentine on Jan 24, 2010 3:14 PM EST up reply actions
yeah we are better at man to man look at the games we played starting with the saints game we played so much zone it was crazy and with C.C. Brown sorry ass back their it was like playing 11-on 10 he’s the worsr safty ever and sherdan did not adjust to the Ds strenth we are not a zone team i hate it go back to the 3-4 like when we had LT
believe it or not
they played a TON of soft zones during the LT era. We just had a dominating front 7 which gave the secondary an easy job
by mclaren_is_the_best on Jan 25, 2010 3:34 PM EST up reply actions
You are correct.
But back then we had linebackers that could actually help the secondary.
by giant fan since 57 on Jan 25, 2010 6:08 PM EST up reply actions
Press Coverage
Webster excelled when Press coverage was used. Not the Read and React style of Jonnie Lynn. Both he and Thomas were press coverage guys in College (as was Ross). So, they were drafted to fit a scheme. I think we’ll lose something if we go back to pure Zone.
As my last name is Ross, and I bought the Jersey, I hope Mr. Ross regains his rookie form and makes impact plays, with no hamstring injuries!
+1
I think we need to let Thomas and Webster play man to man, we need to play to our strength and those two have the potential to be a shutdown pair. Hopefully Fewell sees that and will be able to adjust
by Ahmad Bradshaw on Jan 24, 2010 9:18 AM EST up reply actions
OMG
Are you slow? Did you not see what happened to us last year?
We are going to change everything because if we continue as we were doing last year we will be 0-16!
Hold on a second, JDA
You are new here. We do not treat each other like that here. Make your point, but NO PERSONAL INSULTS. We are all friends here, and everyone is entitled to their opinion.
by Ed Valentine on Jan 24, 2010 3:16 PM EST up reply actions
I wonder what the reason was for Webster to slip so much?
You've got to be very careful if you don't know where you are going, because you might not get there
The question is
was 2008 really just a mirage? Was Webster’s 2008 play connected to Spags? Is Webster really the guy we saw before the 2007 playoffs? We just don’t know right now.
by Ed Valentine on Jan 24, 2010 12:43 PM EST up reply actions
Part of it is it's for corners to play that great year in and year out
Mark Collins was always a bit up and down but overall was a quality player, I think Webster is the same type of player Fewell’s MO is he’s great with DB’s C-Web will be fine under Perry, he might not be elite shut down but he’s good. Also keep in mind they had NO pass rush this year, if oppents QB’s felt a little more uncomfortable vs the G-Men C-Web looks a lot better.
You got it.
No pass rush + always playing against the #1 receiver + terrible Sheridan schemes = you won’t look too good.
And besides his stats weren’t that terrible – he gave up less yards than Champ Bailey, Sheldon Brown and other “elite corners”
by mclaren_is_the_best on Jan 25, 2010 12:51 AM EST up reply actions
And I really hate when the TT to safety idea is brought up....
does he improve in 2010? Who knows..cuz he could do what Webster did this season. But TT is their best corner…..
I would not however be against Aaron Ross to safety. I think its much easier to find a solid nickel corner then a solid safety..or at least when looking at the roster (Bruce Johnson..maybe one of these other Johnsons…and not Dockery…).
You can draft a smallish CB..like say, Javier Arenas (who’s also an excellent ST player for Bama) in the 3rd if he falls as well as plenty of others.
You've got to be very careful if you don't know where you are going, because you might not get there
well the thing is
we dont know how good of a safety ross even is.
by Ahmad Bradshaw on Jan 24, 2010 9:19 AM EST up reply actions
He's a better athlete and overall football player
than CC. Brown, Aaron Rouse and Micahel Johnson. He can tackle and blitz well and has speed and has better ball skills than the other 3. I’m not saying he would be great or it’s not a risk but give him an offseason to learn the position and an entire training camp and might be a solid FS. He’s too talented of a football player to be a backup while the other guys I mentioned are on the field so they need to play him.
Thing about that...
is the DC has made CB’s into S’s.
Ross has already made a semi-transition to the S position…so with a DC teaching him that knows what he has to teach in order to make Ross make that switch..its definitely possible with Fewell here.
You've got to be very careful if you don't know where you are going, because you might not get there
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 24, 2010 10:47 AM EST up reply actions
nice point
the more I’m learning about Fewell the more I’m thinking he really is the perfect fit and I’m usually negative about this stuff.
by Landeta on Jan 24, 2010 11:35 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
his specialty is secondary...
and making that secondary force turnovers and make plays.
He seems to have no problem blitzing Safeties too..which I’m sure many of us think is illegal because the Giants were just obeying the rules…but not doing it.
Ross..KP, oh..absolutely Terrel Thomas…Spags used to send em on “search and sack missions”.
Sigh….
You've got to be very careful if you don't know where you are going, because you might not get there
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 24, 2010 11:46 AM EST up reply actions
Ross to safety
We do know a couple of things, though.
1. He has experience, both collegiately and now at the NFL level playing it.
2. He would improve the speed and coverage ability for the Giants at that position.
3. He has enough size, and tackles, well enough.
One other thing we know. As a corner he is really adequate, best. Playing safety could be the best thing for him.
by Ed Valentine on Jan 24, 2010 9:27 AM EST up reply actions
corners
it’s worrisome that Ross is always hurt and Webster finished the season injured. But I think this is the best crop of corners the Giants have ever had, if they’re healthy, and used right. A secondary with Webster, Thomas, and a healthy K Phillips, is going to be formidable, wherever Ross ends up.
Ross
You know it’s really a shame what has happened to him. He was just as good as Revis after their rookie seasons! Obviously they’ve gone in drasticly different directions since then. He was starting like 4 games into his rookie season and was the teams best corner for most of the year. He was usually locked up against the #2 man but he covered well, tackled well, was a bit of a playmaker and was a major upgrade at the CB position. I still remeber when he seperated his shoulder in the playoff game vs the Cowboys came back into the game and made an awsome tackle on Marion Barber throwing his injured shoulder at Barber to prevent him from scoring a TD and forced the Girls to kick a FG. Ross got up and then fell to the ground becasue of the pain and missed the rest of the game but he showed guts comming back and gave everything he had for one last big play. I’ll never forget that about him. I just hope he gets right physically and mentally it would be a real shame cause the guy has got talent and could be a really good DB in the NFL. Maybe it’s the #31, Sehorn looked like the next great thing in 97 then ripped up his knee in the preason vs the Freaking Jets, (like Osi did anther reason to hate the Jets) and was never the same. He showed some flashes afterward but he never turned out to be this grat all time DB a lot of us thougt he would.
Ed for Edit....
In the second line under “Aaron Ross” the type says he DID perform particularly well. By the rest of the sentence I think you meant DIDN’T….
I odnt like the idea of moving any of CB’s to S. With most teams throwing the football more you need 3 CB’s that can play. The biggest problem’s we had with teams making big plays was because of a lack of pass rush and terrible S play. I think Tuck and Osi will both bounce back which will take care of one problem. Drafting a player at S or signing a FA would be a much better choice.
With the holes at DT, S, and MLB I dont think drafting a CB early can be justified.
well...
how about 4?
Ross, as the FS, would be a 3rd CB on the field AT ALL TIMES. When they go to nickel…its basically having 4.
A rookie is less experienced at playing S in the NFL then Ross..even with his brief S exposure.
He could be the answer to part of the S problem. Players moving from CB to S is common actually….
Also..it gets the best players on the field.
In no way am I saying not draft a safety…actually I’d rather draft one in round 1.
You've got to be very careful if you don't know where you are going, because you might not get there
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 24, 2010 10:53 AM EST up reply actions
Maybe Ross can be a hybrd type
CB/S. guys have done that over the years…Ronnie Lott started out as a CB then moved to saftey but could still play some corner. Carnel Lake and Rod Woodson did it too. I’m not saying Ross is as good as those guys but it really is’nt far fetched. Tuck was hybrd DE/DT in 07 cause we has Osi and Strahan why can’t Ross be a hybrd CB/S in 2010 cause we have TT and CW? I don’t know it seems tough to find a quality FS with speed, range, and ball skills while SS are a lot eaisier to find why not try and convert a decent NFL corner with those skills? Seems like it’s just as challenging to find a good FS anyways
by Landeta on Jan 24, 2010 11:49 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Athletically, it only seems logical for a transition
Not knowing what is going on behind the scenes, Ross to FS would be less of a burden come draft time. With TT and CW at CB, and if KP can overcome his condition, only depth would be needed. If Fewell can work his magic with Ross (moving?) and get improvements from B. Johnson and M. Johnson (if he’s here), we could actually round out the remaining depth in the middle rounds. If not potentially upgrading at the same time!
For the record....
I knew that TT Would take Ross’ job….In fact I likened Ross to “wally pipp” because I knew he would never get that starting job back once TT got it.
he doesn’t deserve it either.
I’d look to deal Ross now before the entire league figures out what we already know….
Web will bounce back if he’s allowed to play man press coverage. if not, look for TT to be our best CB next year…again.
"If you don't know what you're doing... just rush the quarterback" - LT
if they can get a decent pick for Ross (say...late 3rd or early 4th...) then OK
deal him. He IS talented…but he’s just been entirely too injury prone. I know the games played says one thing..but you can tell those that actually watch the games when they know Ross is a “walking back to the locker room before halftime” waiting to happen.
Now..I don’t think they’ll get that for him…so he’s probably better off on the team and hopefully he has better injury luck this year.
You've got to be very careful if you don't know where you are going, because you might not get there
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 24, 2010 10:55 AM EST up reply actions
I think we can get that...
or even better…
i wouldn’t deal him for a 4th round pick
"If you don't know what you're doing... just rush the quarterback" - LT
are we really dumping DJ Johnson?
I bing him back w/out question. He’s too young to give up on….and we really didn’t get a fair look at him…
"If you don't know what you're doing... just rush the quarterback" - LT
Ed.... Sheridan had ever right to trust Webster in 1 on 1 situations
even against “elite WRs”….IMO he didn’t trust him enough. Had him playing Zone too much and just had his Corners too far off the line.
IMO it looked like WEbster forgot how to play physical….just wasn’t even attempting a Jam. At least in ‘07 and ’08 he would play closer to the line…and get his hands on the WR’s.
I don’t know why this happened but i’m hoping it will change. But i really can’t blame sheridan for putting him in Man coverage on Vincent Jackson, B Marshall….and especially not Roy Williams.
As most know i’m a huge Web fan so part of me thinks it the scheme, but at the same time, i think sheridan should have trusted Web in man coverage….for the most part he did a good job but V. Jackson and R. Williams made him look bad…and that’s on C Web. He shut R. Williams down in week 2….it’s unexplainable how RWilliams had such a good game later in the year.
Maybe Cweb’s knee was a bigger problem than we knew???
"If you don't know what you're doing... just rush the quarterback" - LT
I've been wondering why...
this offseason, they fire the DL coach and the DC, tho of course deserved, let the training staff and the ST coach are still there.
You've got to be very careful if you don't know where you are going, because you might not get there
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 24, 2010 10:59 AM EST up reply actions
that's why cover 2 / tampa 2 scares me
i’m hearing a lot of talk about Jauron wanting to play cover 2 in Buffalo…not Fewell.
HOpefully that was the case b/c we need to get these guys back into press coverage.
i heard the other day on the off season report (giants.com) that if anything Fewell will play zone in running situations, and man up in passing situations….which seems to make sense…and of course was the exact opposite of what Sheridan was doing.
"If you don't know what you're doing... just rush the quarterback" - LT
I know Ed is high on Dave Merritt....
but isin’t he specifically safeties coach? gotta wonder why he has not been able to get through to some of these guys?
I thought Guinta just worked w/ the CBs?
either way, your right….
"If you don't know what you're doing... just rush the quarterback" - LT
Merrit has been
given the likes of James Butler, Will Demps, M. Johnson, CC Brown, A Rouse, G Wison to work with so that’s why he still has a job. Wilson was not half bad and KP was the one quality player he was given and they only carried 3 safteys on the roster going into the season so he made lemonade out of Lemons he might be a decent coach.
by Landeta on Jan 24, 2010 12:02 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I dont get it
The house cleaning started then they hire a new DC and nothing, zero.
I just cant see him keeping the rest of the staff or…..I hope he doesn’t keep the rest of the staff
You can see a lot just by observing-Yogi Berra
it doesn't make any sense...
Wauffle was the only one IMO worth keeping..not Giunta, not Merrit..for the way the players at these positions were always out of position.
If they got rid of Wauffle, which I do agree with in order to send a message…what the hell are these other guys there for?
You've got to be very careful if you don't know where you are going, because you might not get there
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 24, 2010 11:15 AM EST up reply actions
I read an article in NJ.com
Wauffel apparently was a pain in the ass. He wined about his contract and getting looked over for the DC job 3 times so they wanted a reason to fire him, they finally got one this year. I don’t know if that the right thing to do but I agree spcial teams and the traing staff need to be seriously evaluated this team is a walking MASH untit every year.
by Landeta on Jan 24, 2010 11:55 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Waufle
Basically fired himself. Word is he went in to TC and Reese and asked for a raise and more say. After this season that wasn’t going to happen.
by Ed Valentine on Jan 24, 2010 12:45 PM EST up reply actions
can the ST coach and training staff ask for raises too?
You've got to be very careful if you don't know where you are going, because you might not get there
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 24, 2010 12:46 PM EST up reply actions
can't argue with it too much...
they won’t be the 07 Giants…ever, cuz the team they face in the bowl is not undefeated…
But…there’s a lot of similarity..that’s it.
You've got to be very careful if you don't know where you are going, because you might not get there
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 24, 2010 12:34 PM EST up reply actions
A little premature
At this point
We will see what happens after the other Manning has his way with them today
You can see a lot just by observing-Yogi Berra
Maybe our secondary could be a strenght in 2010
Webster Thomas
Phillips Ross
on 1st and 2nd down
then if we draft lets say Burnett in the 2nd round
Webster Thomas Ross Johnson
Phillips Burnett
on 3rd down depending on how many receivers the other team is using
by mclaren_is_the_best on Jan 24, 2010 12:31 PM EST reply actions
or even Earl Thomas in the 1st round
I know this is a cornerback discussion but it is fun to imagine about best possible defensive backfields. It would be nice to see a recovered Phillips, E. Thomas, TT and Webster back there full time. Ross, B. Johnson and M. Johnson could be rotating nickel and dime options.
by NY Football Giants on Jan 24, 2010 3:15 PM EST up reply actions
We have very talented cornerbacks
Ross, Webster and TT. If they can stay healthy, I think they could do fine.
I agree, only Ross I would think about turning into a safety, but I wouldn’t rely on that.
Johnson I’m sure wildly exceeded all of our expectations. He shouldn’t have even played.
And dockery is a bum, didn’t do anything right, ST or as the nickel.
Never assume skill at bouncing a ball makes you smarter than the guy who built the court.
When there's a WILL there's a WAY
I don't know but this defense as I said before is a mystery..
And I think it is like a domino effect, starting with the D-line and working its way back into the secondary..For the most part we have a very talented group of players when healthy and are coached well..I also will bring this up again..Our team is suffering too many avoidable injuries, so the training staff needs to be scrutinized..I’m especially concerned about Ross’s Hamstring keeping him out so long..it seems unfathomable to me to have an injury like that keep you out so long…
One of my favorite schemes
Where possible – is to line up the number one CB against the #2 receiver. then double the number 1. It is rare for even your best CB to shut down a true number 1 receiver, but he often can shut down the number 2 completely.
I'm satisfied with our corners
Ross 09’ season was a wash. I’m not so high on transforming him into a S. We drafted him as a corner and by August lets hope he’s 100%. Throw him at nickel. I’d rather draft someone thats familiar with that role than try to transform Ross. We experimented Kiwi at LB and that didnt work so well. Also it would help our secondary if we can put some pressure on the opposing QB’s rather than hoping to have our corners try to cover for 5+ seconds.
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