New York Giants position breakdowns: Middle linebacker
by Ed Valentine on Jan 21, 2010 11:00 AM EST
in News
180 comments
In a way, we have been talking about the future of the New York Giants middle linebacker position for months now. Let's do that formally today as we continue our series of position-by-position breakdowns.
In fact, we have been talking about a future that does not include incumbent middle linebacker Antonio Pierce for a couple of seasons now. Have we reached the point when that future is now? Very possibly.
We know that the Giants have to get better play from the middle linebacker spot in 2010. Lack of solid run-stopping from that spot hurt the Giants in 2009. And in a Perry Fewell defense, Tampa 2 or a different zone scheme, the middle linebacker will have to be fast enough to handle some significant coverage responsibilities.
Can the Giants current MLB candidates do those things? I'm not so sure. Let's take a look at each player individually.
Antonio Pierce: We know that AP, an eight-year veteran has long been a terrific defensive 'quarterback.' No doubt the Giants missed that presence after he went on Injured Reserve with a bulging disc in his neck.
Question is, even if doctors clear Pierce to resume playing again in 2010 is his leadership enough to warrant bringing him back despite his obviously declining physical skills? Personally, I think not.
It is clear that Pierce is not the same player who totaled 167 tackles back in 2006, or even the guy who had 129 tackles in 2007. He has slowed down to the point of being an extreme liability in pass coverage. Against the run game he is not big enough or physical enough to be a real force, and gets caught out of position too often for a player as smart as he is.
In fact, Pro Football Focus has actually rated AP a below-average middle linebacker for three years running. AP rated -1.0 in 2009, a league-worst -24.1 in 2008 and even a below-par -7.0 in the 2007 Super Bowl season.
So, if you are harboring the illusion that Pierce is still an upper-echelon middle linebacker it just isn't the case. It's time to cut ties and try to upgrade that spot.
Jonathan Goff: So, if the Giants move on and try to replace Pierce is Goff capable of stepping in and doing the job? I really don't think we know the answer to that question. He had a five-game audition at the end of the season, and what we saw was a mixed bag. He made eight tackles in a promising first start against Dallas, but never really duplicated that type of success.
He is athletic, but at 236 pounds not a physical force in the middle. To my eyes, he often seemed to have trouble getting through traffic to make a play. Maybe he will improve with experience, but pass coverage did not seem to be a strength.
What does Pro Football Focus have to say? A decent run defender (-0.9), but awful against the pass (-6.0).
Chase Blackburn: We all love Blackburn, but I think that what you see is what you get with him. He is an excellent special teams player and a solid fill-in at any of the linebacker spots. Definitely a guy who belongs on the team. But a guy who belongs in the starting lineup? I don't think so.
Conclusion: If it is a choice strictly between Pierce and Goff I have to take Goff, only because at least there is potential upside with Goff as he gains experience. If it is a choice between Goff and another impact middle linebacker, though, I am looking elsewhere. That means Alabama's Rolando McClain is a no-brainer if he somehow falls to the Giants in the 15th slot of the first round. Or, possibly Florida's Brandon Spikes. How about Barrett Ruud (Tampa Bay), Karlos Dansby (Arizona) or DeMeco Ryans (Houston) as free agents?
Whatever the Giants do, the status quo at this position is definitely not acceptable.
Keep: Goff, Blackburn
Dump: Pierce
Draft/Free Agency Priority (1 being the highest, 5 the lowest): 1 -- I think we all agree that if the Giants have a shot at an impact middle linebacker they need to take it.
- Wide receiver
- Tight end
- Offensive line
- Running back
- Fullback
- Quarterback
- Defensive tackle
- Defensive end
(E-mail Ed at bigblueview@gmail.com)
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Personally, I think LB is our biggest immediate need.
As in a 2010 on the field now need. Pierce is done. Goff isn’t the answer longer term, but I agree he’s a keeper for now. OLB’s not so desperate, but Clark should go, Boley may be O.K. if healthy and Sintim shows promise, but not sure if he is really a LB, a pass-rush DE, or just a "tweener". So MLB is primary focus.
Of the FA’s Dansby looks most interesting, as he effectively can’t be franchised again. Something like they would have to pay him 1 year guaranteed at the avg. of the Top 10 players in the whole league.
As for the draft, we really need an impact player at LB you can start almost Day 1. Can you get that at #15 ? (or some minor trading up or down depending on who’s available in that range) Thought it would be interesting to see LB’s picked in past Round 1’s, and how many you could say are "impact players" or "play makers", because we really need one, ideally at MLB.
Impact/Play Maker:
Cushing (HOU) – 2009 # 15
Matthews (GB) – 2009 # 26
Mayo (NE) – 2008 # 10
Willis (SF) – 2007 # 11
Greenway (MIN) – 2006 # 17
Timmons (PIT) – 2007 # 15
Beason (CAR) – 2007 # 25
Merriman (SD) – 2005 # 12
Vilma (NYJ) – 2004 # 12
Barnett (GB) – 2003 # 25
Suggs (BAL) – 2003 # 10
Morgan (CAR) – 2001 # 11
Arrington (WAS) – 2000 # 2
Urlacher (CHI) – 2000 # 9
Peterson (SF) – 2000 # 16
Lewis (BAL) – 1996 # 26
Good, or "too soon to tell" – drafted recently:
Curry (SEA) – 2009 # 4
Lawson – (SF) – 2006 # 22
Johnson (KC) – 2005 # 15
Disappointments & Outright Busts:
Gholston (NYJ) – 2008 # 6
Hawk (GB) – 2006 # 5
Sims (DET) – 2006 # 9
Wimbly (CLE) – 2006 # 13
Carpenter (DAL) – 2006 # 18
Williams (DEN) – 2004 # 17
Babin (HOU) – 2004 # 27
Harris (Oak) – 2002 # 23
Thomas (STL) – 2002 # 31
DJ Williams in Denver...
is a bust. Not sure I really agree with that.
I was suprised we didn’t make a biger push for Vilma when he left the Jets. Love that guy.
definitely not a bust....
maybe out of position as a MLB…but not a bust.
I’d take DJ Williams and his 4.5 speed in a second…
It gets late real early out here....
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 21, 2010 12:05 PM EST up reply actions
Another case
of a poor DL getting thrown in the LB’s lap and it’s hard to fend off the blocker as well as your own DL.
you sure like to group all of the buckeyes in the bust catagory
I smell a michigan fan
oops I crapped my pants!
Yeah, I didn't mean ...
both a dissappointment and a bust, but rather was grouping dissappointments with outright busts. Case in point, Hawk not a total bust, but certainly a dissappointment at #5 overall.
Another LB
that should be mentioned is Jon Beason Rd 1 / 25. It seems as if there is always quality for LB around the middle of each draft according to the numbers you gave. Although plugging them in and having it work within a scheme is obviously more difficult.
* I finally put my glasses on --
sorry shofner I didnt see that you had beason in there
Good post
..but DJ Williams is definitely not a bust. He is a very good player.
I also think Ernie Sims should fall in the “too soon to tell” because he has been good when he is on the field, but has struggled with injuries.
Overall good work though.
Surprisingly
The last LB’s taken in round 1 was LT in ‘81 and Banks in ’83. I’ve scoured over drafts for all teams since the early ’80’s, though some LB’s throughout the years have panned out, they wouldn’t be considered your prototypical franchise LB’s like some of the 1st rounders are today.
Upgrade at MLB
I know the answer is that we definitely need an upgrade at MLB but the question is – How Much.
I’ve continued to write on BBV that it’s hard to judge the play of a MLB if his DT’s are being blocked and pushed back to him and that was the case for the majority of the season. Nevertheless, Pierce has lost the speed that made up for his lack of size and is clearly not able to cover RB’s in patter or drop back fast enough in the zone to cover.
I’m still of the school that we have to go out and get some studs at DT in FA, grab Barrett Rudd (or some of the other names we’ve tossed around at MLB) and then pick up another FA at OLB if Sintim can’t learn the defense. Draft some talent as well at LB but we need to make sure we can stop the run and Philly and Dallas have two of the biggest OL’s in football. We can’t ROOKIE-it-up here and think that will work year one.
I’m still not happy that our team leader was out partying that night with Plaxico (Thursday night). I’m not sure that Pierce has made MLB his priority and his conditioning has really fallen off. If the team sees that out of the captain then I’m not sure how much they’re going to do.
I would like to see Coughlin try to make a Pierce a coach and bring him under his coaching staff. I think with the neck injury and his skills dropping it is the right time and I think Fewell could use the help.
so true about DT's play affecting MLBs
Joe Klecko was on the Boomer and Carton show this morning talking about how good the Jets OL is at getting through the line and blocking the next level of defenders. That’s really something we saw teams doing against the Giants this year. That’s also part of the reason Goff didn’t look very good. He was terrible at shedding blockers, especially when they were linemen.
I’d like to see us pick up a player like Dansby who can play right away, rather than take a chance on a rookie panning out in his first year. Of course it won’t matter if the DTs are invisible again.
Very true
The DTs are supposed to clear the way for the MLB. Ideally, there should not be a bunch of traffic for him to negotiate. I doubt AP would accept being a coach, at least not now when he believes he can still play.
by Ed Valentine on Jan 21, 2010 11:44 AM EST up reply actions
Can he continue?
Does it really matter whether AP thinks he can continue. I am no medic, but a bulging disc in the neck sounds pretty serious to me, especially when he is playing in such a high impact position. It wouldn’t surprise me if he throws in the towel at this point on medical advice.
I wonder if the Giants need to be thinking about a 2 or 3 year development plan here rather than rushing to fix everything in one go and actually fixing nothing at all. We have a young WR group that will take a couple more years to hit the top of their game, Eli has improved year-on-year. I think we can make the LB group a project. If that is the case I would prefer to draft a top guy who will take a year to develop rather than spend $$$ on FA busts like we did this year. Maybe we have to be willing to take a steady (10-6) season next year in preparation for a SB victory in 2011-12. (Blasphamy I know)
He was like a god walking amongst mere mortals. He had a voice that could make a wolverine purr and suits so fine they made Sinatra look like a hobo.
I think AP might throw in the towel ...
on Agent’s advice, by getting medical opinion that he can’t continue, and negotiate an injury settlement (if he’s even entitled to one). I think the handwriting is on the wall that he will be cut with no additional $$ as things stand now, even if he’s cleared to play medically.
Draft...
Then what position do you propose we draft for?? If DT is such a need we can’t draft them either, who knows if they pan out… Personally I would love to get a play making RB guy who could hit them 80yd TDs 4.3 speed… Problem is we are going to have draft a rookie at LB or DT no way we get 2 LBs and 2 DTs in Free Agency or Trade…
All's Well that Fewell
No way
He makes way too much money for that. The guy still thinks he’s an elite player and wants a contract extension. Why pay a guy 5 million a year to be a backup? I’d much rather get a young playmaker to play the postion than have a guy as a backup who is past his prime and thinks he’s hot sh*t.
President of the Ramses Barden Fan Club
by Hoyadestroya85 on Jan 21, 2010 12:01 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, I can't see the Giants ...
wanting to pay him much to hang around. As for a new deal, NFW. They froze him out when he was all over the media saying he wanted an extension in 2008, and he’s a shadow of what he was back then.
Why would we do that with him
When we just ditched Toomer who was even more capable at his position in 2008 than Pierce has been the past 2 seasons
DB
Since McClain is not likely to be there at 15
I think we should just draft Daryl Washington in the 2nd and get it over with. He is a real talented player and will be a great linebacker in the NFL
by mclaren_is_the_best on Jan 21, 2010 11:39 AM EST reply actions
Yeah but middle linebackers generally drop lower than their talent. Also not many teams are looking for a MLB so he will definitely drop to the 2nd round
by mclaren_is_the_best on Jan 21, 2010 7:33 PM EST up reply actions
Free Agency and Draft
If there was ever a time to spend some money on a free agent LB Its now
At first I couldnt see us spending the money on Dansby or Ryans
but now I cant see how they dont
Fewell D relies on speed and as I much as would like to keep AP, his lack of speed and declining play coupled with a bulging disc issue makes him a huge liability
As far as him coaching I think he be best suited for the “Defense quality control” position
Personally I would like to see them sign a stud free agent LB and if there is a chance to get Mcclain or Spikes get one of those guys also.
As we have seen this position needs some depth
You can see a lot just by observing-Yogi Berra
whats a good site
to read and view entering players in the draft.. all im finding is seniors… is this because underclassmen have yet to announce leaving for the nfl ?
pretty sure Ruud and DeMeco are RFA's....
so that could be a tough task.
Dansby is still fairly young…chance are McClain is off the board. so if we are planning on addressing MIKE via FA than it’s Dansby or bust.
"If you don't know what you're doing... just rush the quarterback" - LT
i'm not sure Goff or Sintim are either....
lol.
I do know Dansby is an upgrade over Goff though…
personally, my choice is Safety. I would like to see Earl Thomas in a giants uniform come draft day.
"If you don't know what you're doing... just rush the quarterback" - LT
I would love Thomas
guy is a ballhawk and a ferocious tackler for his size.
Homer: Aw, twenty dollars! I wanted a peanut!
Homer's Brain: Twenty dollars can buy many peanuts!
Homer: Explain how!
Homer's Brain: Money can be exchanged for goods and services!
Homer: Woo-hoo!
by bigbluethruandthru on Jan 21, 2010 9:56 PM EST up reply actions
Rudd
I think Tampa will not spend the money to keep him around. I think Gruden was fired over his paycheck and not the results. I thik the Rumors on the Tampa ownership losing a lot of money due to that Wall Street criminal (name eludes me) is true.
Tampa is about 40 million under the cap
Maybe not that much but they have the most room in the NFL if there is a Cap so I think TB will resign him.
To quote a friend, "There is a better chance of a meteor hitting New York while I am typing this than of DeMeco playing anywhere but Houston next year."
"An open mind is like a fortress with it's gates unbarred and unguarded."
The ROSENFAIL : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAKAKE-uq-8&feature=related
by TexansForever on Jan 25, 2010 4:03 PM EST up reply actions
No AP in '10
But I am doubtful Goff can do it.
Agree that a good FA pickup would be best solution. AP was a FA pick up. Does Dansby play in the middle? If yes, I disagree with senmsemma – go get Dansby JR. He is proven and still young enough.
Post is spot on Ed. But I would go further and say that MLB is the Giants #1 priority this offseason.
Training camp will be interesting. I am still hoping Sintim gets a look there if Giants have not acquire their MLB solution. If he can’t do it – fine. But take a look. He is athletic, reasonably fast for his size and a hitter. Coverage skills and ability to QB the defense – dunno.
dansby
he plays the middle.. but has fallen off in the “playmaking” stat in AZ. Some say he has lost a step and isnt worth the money he is going to be asking for this offseason.
If we get him.. it definately will be a upgrade, but dont overpay for the guy.
Sintim is not a middle linebacker
I could probably be as effective as him at MLB
by mclaren_is_the_best on Jan 21, 2010 12:46 PM EST up reply actions
Well give us your Combine #'s ...
and we’ll think it over.
+1
pretty sure my 4.6 isn’t a 4.6 anymore after over a decade as a desk jockey
my 4.6
is a 17.7
You play to win the game!
by Simms-McConkey on Jan 21, 2010 12:59 PM EST up reply actions
lol
Funny, after my flag football game yesterday me and my buddies were clocking our forties.. although obviously not official i ran a 4.58 probably my worst forty since 13yrs ago when i was a Senior in HS… But at 5’8" and 168pounds not exactly NFL material, matter fact I probably should be running atleast a 4.4 at my size lol can put 225pds 3 times lol and yes i can’t jump…
All's Well that Fewell
oh yeah?
I can curl 16 ounces like 429 times over the course of a football game on TV
You play to win the game!
by Simms-McConkey on Jan 21, 2010 3:08 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
We dont necessarily
need a LB in the draft. Brian Urlacher and Keith Bulluck both played both played safety in college. A Tampa 2 MLB is ends up being a 3rd safety playing center field on a lot of plays. We may find our guy looking at the bigger safeties in this class
Taylor Mays?
Could be..could be..
Should be interesting to see if they consider this.
THere’s no doubt Mays has the athleticism. His deep coverage skills are the ones in question.
If he could bulk up to around 240lbs..and retain his high 4.3 -low 4.4 speed…maybe we got something?
It gets late real early out here....
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 21, 2010 12:29 PM EST up reply actions
Ed
You really had to make this one just middle linebacker? You’re killing me haha.
President of the Ramses Barden Fan Club
by Hoyadestroya85 on Jan 21, 2010 12:03 PM EST reply actions
Geez
Well, it’s a looooong off-season. Gotta drag out all the good stuff as long as I can.
by Ed Valentine on Jan 21, 2010 1:12 PM EST up reply actions
would i get ripped for saying
trade kiwi to the rams w/ our number one and draft suh??
id like to see canty get some play at DE in a 4-3
that would help our MLB position.
Not ripped ... but the problem is ...
The NFL value point chart says the # 1 overall pick is worth 3,000 and the #15 is worth 1,050. All of our remaining draft picks don’t even add up to 1,000 points. So unless the Rams felt that Kiwi was worth another #15-ish pick and you wanted to trade our entire draft as well, no-one is going to hand over the #1 pick value-wise.
the draft value chart is just a guideline...not a rule.
Kiwi’s certainly worth a 1st rounder….comparing him to any DE in this draft, I’d say he’s got as much potential and is already established for what he is.
Only thing is…do the Rams really wanna give up Suh (if that’s who they’re taking…)
Do the Giants wanna give up Kiwi?
Do the Rams wanna pay #1 overall pick money?
It gets late real early out here....
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 21, 2010 12:13 PM EST up reply actions
I don't know that we could get a 1st Rounder for Kiwi ...
as it’s pretty clear he is not an every down lineman. Not saying we give up on him, but until he proves otherwise, he’s more of a passing down rusher, unless we want to try the LB experiment again.
Kiwanuka's been a bust for us so far
hes worth a 3rd at most
by mclaren_is_the_best on Jan 21, 2010 12:51 PM EST up reply actions
i wouldn't call him a bust
since he was drafted basically as a backup to Osi, but i don’t think he’s worth a 1st round pick either.
Agreed.
This seems like a case of homerism on our parts because we like Kiwi and think he’s better than he is because he plays for our team. Other teams in the league do not look at Kiwi as an impact player and we’d be lucky to get a 3rd round pick for him.
you'd be surprised the perception of Kiwi...
not sure what the GM’s and actual people that matter think…but whenever I mention Kiwi I get the “he’s a beast” retort…..
It gets late real early out here....
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 21, 2010 3:00 PM EST up reply actions
he's definitely solid
he’s improved at DE consistently every year. and other than getting hurt during the LB experiment season has been durable as a lineman. overall against both run and pass he’s certainly better than the 09 version of Osi.
I hear that too
I don’t see it. He’s ok but I’ve been wating for him to break out for years. Keep in mind though Strahan did not break out till year 5 1997, so maybe 2010 is Kiwi’s year, I hope so he seems like a good guy.
being a former 1st roundpick....
I really can’t argue that statement.
I don’t know if it’s 100% accurate, but again….hard to argue.
"If you don't know what you're doing... just rush the quarterback" - LT
Dunno how possible that is....
not gonna rip ya…its just, is it possible?
I think the Giants would have to give up more.
I’m not sure what Kiwi’s exact value is. If its a 1st rounder…that means 2 first rounders for the #1? Maybe…
If they gotta do #15, Kiwi and a 4th…get it done. But I don’t think they can go any more then that.
It gets late real early out here....
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 21, 2010 12:11 PM EST up reply actions
that's an interesting senario....
I would probably entertain it if i were in St Louis. You get a DE and the 15th overall pick.
it’s interesting to say the least.
"If you don't know what you're doing... just rush the quarterback" - LT
I don't think the Giants should do this trade
because we don’t want to give #1 overall money to a defensive tackle. It’s a similar situation to Haynesworth. You can give one man all the money or use the money to get several different parts. The Giants aren’t 1 player away so they should be trying to get several different parts.
Heres something interesting
Depending on the flow of the draft? Trade down a few slots in the 1st, perhaps picking up a 4th along the way? If some are adamant on trading Osi (especially to the Rams) perhaps their 2nd and maybe a 5th or 6th too. The Rams could have instant credibility along their DL with Suh, Osi and Chris Long for starters. Maybe desirable to them?
If we could land, say Earl Thomas with our 1st, we would have two picks in the first half of the 2nd, then our third, two in the fourth and maybe two in the 5th or 6th? Three picks in the top 47 could help go a long way for a couple of concerns!
It would take much much much much much much much much much much much much much
much much much much much more than kiwanuka and a 1st to move up to the #1 pick
by mclaren_is_the_best on Jan 21, 2010 12:49 PM EST up reply actions
Only one MLB is worth the Giants 1st rounder..that's McClain..
as I’m sure most know..and those that think Spikes is worth it..should no.
Spikes is Antonio Pierce except bigger. Dunno how else to explain it…I’ve always liked Pierce..but always though they could do better at MLB, as in someone who was less of a knucklehead and also with some NFL caliber speed…They must pass on Spikes in round one, and if he’s there in round 2…should just consider other options…if Spikes is BPA at #47, then fine.
But I’d rather not see Spikes with the Giants. Too slow for their apparent new scheme. Way too slow.
At the very least…they need to get some competition for Goff. Not ready to write off Goff yet, I think there’s something there.
There’s smallish, quick fast sure tackling types in this draft like Rennie Curran, who’s a bout 5"11 235-240. Others who are a bit taller like Darryl Washington are very good options too.
I think they should look into Pierce’s value. Maybe some other team doesn’t think he’s shot..and gives up a spare 5th rounder for him?
It gets late real early out here....
Thats what we have to consider
The attributes of the LB that fits within the T2. Just for comparison, between Goff and Pierce, do they look like other T2 LB’s? Barrett Ruud from TB, Gary Brackett from Indy, Brian Urlacher from Chi, or maybe from the Bills (not sure if they had a T2 flavor) Paul Posluszny? At this stage, i would say no!
Only Brackett, along with Dansby will be UFA if uncapped, the rest will be RFA. So the draft should be looked at strongly for someone very suitable!
Spikes is better than you give him credit for
He isn’t in McClain’s class, but he is the 2nd best middle linebacker in this draft.
He isn’t slow at all. He is actually a great athlete, just a little stiff at times. He blows Pierce out of the water when you talk in terms of speed and athleticism. He is also a playmaker. I have seen him make plays in coverage and take picks to the house.
He’d be a great pickup if he fell to the 47th overall pick.
You're never going to get FreeBrad to change his mind on Spikes.
I don’t know what games he watched or what draftnik stuff he read, but he’s convinced Spikes is slow. Not the same player I watched. Would I rather have McClain? Hell yes. Is Spikes a better value in the second? For sure. Would I be unhappy if we drafted him first? Not at all.
I left my swagger in my other pants.
McClain/Spikes/linebacker
Free I am sure you watch a lot of college ball, seems to me our top 3 positional needs are DT, Linebacker (MLB or OLB) and safety. We might get a shot at either McClain or Eric Berry at #15. But if both of those fellows are gone who in the 1st round is worth a shot at # 15
by Late for Dinner on Jan 21, 2010 2:02 PM EST up reply actions
A little Side Note on McClain and Spikes
It wasn’t the Combine and thats what matters but the most recent 40yd dashes for McClain had him at 4.6 and Spikes was a 4.51… Just stirring the pot!
All's Well that Fewell
I could actually not give the crap filled corn kernals about the 40 time for these guys...
Lofa Tatupu ran a 4.85 at his pro day.
Tatupu is a sideline to sideline LB who’s more quick then fast.
No MLB’s running 40 yards down the field…if he is, we got more problems then the MLB’s 40 time.
Quick…is better. Spikes is too big to be quick.
What’s Spikes cone drill time?
It gets late real early out here....
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 21, 2010 3:06 PM EST up reply actions
you should be a scout dude
I watch ZERO college ball but your knowledge of the players in college is something else
You play to win the game!
by Simms-McConkey on Jan 21, 2010 3:11 PM EST up reply actions
Your right..that guy knows more College players than anybody I ever saw!!..
I can’t even remember my in-laws names..Once I addressed my own Mother with: “Hi Aunt Marge”..I’d like to take him to the OTB with me to pick-out horses.
McClain is BIGGER than Spikes and you love him
I don’t know which games you are watching on Saturday that I am not watching, but Spikes flies to the football.
I really don't know where you see that...
maybe 2007 or 2008..when he generated all his hype…but definitely not this season.
People said the same thing about Rey Maualuga..and he fell in the draft for the same reason.
Rey-Rey’s only good cuz he has his former USC buddy Keith Rivers right next to him (who actually does fly to the ball).
McClain is much quicker, faster and smarter then Spikes…its not even close.
It gets late real early out here....
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 21, 2010 3:23 PM EST up reply actions
But....
One thing that Spike can bring that mcclain can’t…. Is the Team Leadership and Identity. Brandon Spikes is a player who will be feared!
now your just going overboard...
It gets late real early out here....
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 21, 2010 3:28 PM EST up reply actions
Lets go a setp further
Spikes has that pedigree in his blood, hello!! Takeo Spikes ring a bell?? lol His DNA is Football!!! He has the fire in his eyes!!
All's Well that Fewell
Not to be arguementative
Genes and DNA does not translate to success, regardless of who your relatives are! You have it, or you don’t. It’s all what you make of it as an individual.
I've already stated that McClain is in a class above Spikes
so we are in agreement there.
But the fact that you don’t think Spikes is good is what kills me. I probably watched 6 Florida games this year and never once saw him as “slow”. He is listed as 6’3 256 lbs. I’ve seen him drop into coverage and pick off passes and return in for a TD. He can lay the wood in run support. Not sure what there is to dislike about him.
McClain is listed as 6’4 258 lbs.
To me they are the same size. So if you think McClain will fit our system I don’t know why Spikes wouldn’t.
I watched EVERY single Gators game
Being that my whol fam went there they are fans and we were up in Gainsville for the Alabama game lol was crazy fun drunk day… Spikes is good 2nd rd good not 1st…. He will have a good combine and is going to be ranked 2nd best MLB, the guy is a vocal leader on the field he plays with a nasty attitude he have to respect that.. His college play wasn’t McClain good but who knows who will be better, not me not you not free and most definitely not Mel Kiper!
All's Well that Fewell
Exactly what I've been saying all day
Thank you, gobs
fair enough...
It gets late real early out here....
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 21, 2010 3:32 PM EST up reply actions
Not really replying to anyone in particular
But if Spikes is the overwhelming #2 MLB, has he really justified himself as a 15th pick overall? Thats would be a fair arguement! If there are any red flags waving, one must think twice!
lol
Stirred it alright… I care about the 40s but dont think it holds alot of water… I didn’t see any thing about cone drills, the big thing is seeing what these guys run the 40 in at the combine Feb 27th is the first day so we will see soon enough along with the cone drills… I personally like both and would take McClain 15 not Spikes, Spikes in the 2nd rd done deal to me… It’s hard to say either is going to be a Ray Lewis or Gholston, no one in the world knows what kind of Pro’s either of these guys will be…
All's Well that Fewell
For those that would actually be there
and fit the team..
DT-Brian Price-fast, pass rushing sort of DT
LB- no MLB..I don’t like Spikes. Maybe they really like Navorro Bowman or Sean Witherspoon, but they are both OLB’s..probably WLB’s (tho I dunno what’s gonna make a WLB vs SLB with them now).
S-probably the best bet if they stay put or trade back. Earl Thomas should be there. Morgan Burnett if THomas is off the board, both are woth the #15.
Thomas is like a Polamalu type. 5"10 200..4.4 speed, likes to lay the big hit..and loves to fly around the field and make plays.
..for real, Giants 1st round pick should be Earl Thomas.
He could be better then Berry (who..if he’s there..obviously is the choice..but he’s going top 3-5)..but Thomas doesn’t have the hype or the size that Berry does.
It gets late real early out here....
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 21, 2010 3:04 PM EST up reply actions
More and More
I like this guy Thomas, 4.4 speed?? Thought you didnt give a crap?? lol
All's Well that Fewell
LOL!
well…for skill position and guys that need speed…yea, its kind of important.
I don’t see many CB’s and WR that run 4.85’s…do you (aside from Anquan Boldin…)
It gets late real early out here....
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 21, 2010 3:33 PM EST up reply actions
;)
You are correct and I’m totally sold, Earl Thomas for president.. I mean #1 pick… For real he has the talent and has proven he is football fast not just straight away 40 times, I think him with Phillips is our best bet and we probably could drop a few picks back get some extra picks and get this guy, I’m all for it…
All's Well that Fewell
Morgan Burnett and Navarro Bowman
Burnett had a better sophomore year than junior year. I don’t think he is a 1st round talent.
If we go Earl Thomas or Brian Price in the 1st round (which I would love), then I wouldn’t mind looking at Bowman in possibly round 3. Remember, he filled in at MLB last year when Sean Lee got hurt in Spring ball.
Eric Berry will definitely be gone by #15....think Ed Reed Jr.
But Earl Thomas is an excellent alternative. He is a playmaker in the Ed Reed mold too. A small-ish safety that isn’t afraid to tackle and makes plays in pass coverage. I’d be ecstatic with a Earl Thomas/Kenny Phillips safety tandem.
Do you Hate Spikes?
Spikes is a great player, You want Mcclain im sure the Giants want McClain but the fact of the matter is he may be off the board before we can get McClain.
And I do not want us to trade up for McClain we need a lot of Talent so we need to keep all of our Picks and try to get some extreme value for those picks
hate?
No…I said if he’s BPA at #47…meaning he’s the best of the bunch available…I’m fine with him in the 2nd.
I’m not OK with Spikes in the first…not at all.
I hate #15 overall being Brandon Spikes….that’s about it.
I also wouldn’t mind at all if they went after someone else for their LB pick…
It gets late real early out here....
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 21, 2010 4:07 PM EST up reply actions
I know it’s just a guideline (the Draft Value chart) ...
but we’re throwing a lot of "what if’s" in trades out there that have little chance of getting done in the real world.
According to the chart, we could trade down from # 15 (1,050 pts) to # 25 (720) and get that team’s 2nd rounder (330)as well at # 57. That would have us picking at #25, #47 & #57. Last year we were # 29 (Nicks), # 45 (Sintim) and # 60 (Beatty). If this is a really deep draft, that may make a lot of sense if a McClain isn’t an option at #15. We could probably come away with a LB, S & DT in the first 57 players taken.
I thought AP retired
after the Super Bowl..
by BigBlueDeadHead on Jan 21, 2010 1:50 PM EST reply actions
Yes, but he made it clear ...
that he’d “un-retire” if offered a new and better deal. Failing that, he just retired-in-place and ate a lot of donuts.
Trade Up
I do think trading up for Suh is a pipe dream, but I do wonder about trying to trade up, say, 5 spots to secure McClain, assuming the Giants like him as much as BBV readers do. I wouldn’t mind burning a 3 or 4 or an expendable but good player to get up there and assure we get him.
Might cost us our #3 and our #5 ...
but if JR feels McClain is a sure-fire Urhlacher/Ray Lewis type, then obviously you do it (or at least I would).
I disagree
I do not want to trade any picks because we need a lot of players.
Our Best bet is to draft LB’s the first 2 rounds. Brandon Spikes and Sean Lee, Sean Lee can be a sleeper he has a lot of upside. And with our third pick we can draft a FS
Spikes and Lee?
Might as well keep Antonio Pierce and Danny Clark if we’re so infatuated with big SLOW LB’s….
It gets late real early out here....
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 21, 2010 3:09 PM EST up reply actions
Lee
I’m totally against him in 2nd rd, 3rd fine, Spikes in 1st I’m against too unless we trade back to 29th or further and get alot for our 15 then I see him as a little bit of a reach at 15… Earl Thomas #1 Brandon Spikes #2, I can dig that..
All's Well that Fewell
Much rather a DT like Arthur Jones...
of if they are lucky, they got another 2nd rounder and can get Jahvid Best too.
Much rather them draft a MLB like Rennie Curran. Fast, quick, good tackler…kinda like London Fletcher….
It gets late real early out here....
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 21, 2010 3:51 PM EST up reply actions
and Curran could be a 4th to 5th rounder.
Darryl Washington’s good too.
…point is..regardless of how fast Spikes really is…its not nearly as fast as Curran or Darryl Washington.
I don’t want someone “fast for 6”4 260lbs". I wants someone fast. Not 40 time fast. Football…pads, cleats and shoulder pads fast.
It gets late real early out here....
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 21, 2010 3:52 PM EST up reply actions
MLB
we’ve seen a small sample size of Goff. If he really wanted to be our staring MLB he would have impressed. He didn’t amaze us or leave us in awe. I’m still in favor of drafting a big DT in round 1, but reading yesterdays Tampa 2 post, I’m almost as concerned grabbing McClain in round 1. The last seven defensive rookies of the year were 1st round linebackers and grabbing the best LB from the National Champions would be a big boost.
Who did leave us "in awe" under Sheridans D?
Awaiting the draft :/
by I_Formation27 on Jan 21, 2010 3:06 PM EST up reply actions
Kenny Philips lol
2 interception in 2 games, AWE.
Yeah, Sheridan was an innovator ...
with that “deflection off the TE’s foot tip drill” to close each practice.
thats just being a ball hawk
Should I be concerned that when I googled KP, google suggested “Kenny Phillips career over”?
KP
Yes be concerned, but how old are those articles? and i do believe google isnt suggesting it, it’s links on googles website but the source isn’t google… Anyways check out Phillips21.com Kenny talks about his knee in the 2 newest messages and the newest one sounds like he will be back, Dr. Andrews is saying everything looks great, Problem is he wont run for 4-5 months not the worst thing but not the best… He will play again, it’s just weather or not the injury pokes it’s ugly head out again during the season..
All's Well that Fewell
last year...
really can’t say anyone stood out..maybe Terrell Thomas did…aside from that, not a single player proved he’s really worthy of a NFL roster spot…be it by injury or just flat out suck.
That had a lot to do with Sheridan and the fact that he can’t adjust in games.
Goff has potential still..he deserves to be in competition cuz he’s basically a 2nd year player (removed from his 1st year injury)
It gets late real early out here....
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 21, 2010 3:08 PM EST up reply actions
Goff isn't good
Goff is not a MLB he doesn’t have that star ability that you need to be a MLB. We need a play like Brian Urlacher who is fast and good in coverage and stopping the run. And then we need an OLB like Lance Briggs. The only players that can fill that void is Rolando Mcclain and Sean lee
You don't know that about Goff....
No one was good last year…no one.
I can’t see how anyone would’ve succeeded in that situtation, let alone a guy getting his first NFL action.
Still don’t know what we have there in Goff…he deserves a chance. Competition..but a chance.
McClain’s a pipe dream…Lee is meh. I’d rather have Navarro Bowman.
It gets late real early out here....
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 21, 2010 3:25 PM EST up reply actions
Goff
He deserves a chance for sure, specially if we are drafting a MLB after round 1 let them fight for the spot, if anything he can have our Rook ready to go by game 1 worst that happens is Goff starts and tries and prove he is worthy while the hungry Rook is itching to take his spot.. You need that on your team
All's Well that Fewell
Personally...
I would rather trade back. to later in the first round… secure Burnett… or some play maker, get another second or third, and a fifth or something. Much more value in having more picks in the first 3 rounds than having less picks and getting a top 10 player.
1st and 2nd round picks
Brandon Spikes and Sean Lee.
Sean Lee could play all the LB positions, and he has speed to handle the Tampa 2 defense
Lee...
if he’s available in the 4th..OK.
Spikes…maybe in the 2nd. Maybe.
…definitely not 1st 2 picks. That’s flat out nuts.
LB is not that big a need. Especially with better values and fits out there then those 2.
It gets late real early out here....
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 21, 2010 3:10 PM EST up reply actions
Mel Kiper
Predicted that were getting Brandon Spikes with our 15th pick.
Mel Kiper
predicted FreeBradshaw is going to shit a rather large brick on draft day, in that case
You play to win the game!
by Simms-McConkey on Jan 21, 2010 3:13 PM EST up reply actions
I'll remember to drink water and have a bran muffin before the draft..just in case.
It gets late real early out here....
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 21, 2010 3:34 PM EST up reply actions
I just read that kiper mocked Carlos Dunlap to the Giants..actually.
So uh…take Kiper seriously if you want…I sure as hell don’t.
It gets late real early out here....
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 21, 2010 3:26 PM EST up reply actions
Mel Kiper
He’s the most accurate when it comes to predicted draft picks.
maybe as the draft nears...
as for right now…no he’s not.
He’s still on the “Giants defense took a dump after Pierce’s leadership was absent” bandwagon.
That played a part..but he’s a fool for reasoning that being the reason why the Giants defense stunk..cuz it was just as bad with AP in there….
It gets late real early out here....
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 21, 2010 4:04 PM EST up reply actions
you're right
just saying in general he’s about as good as it gets predicting the unpredictable.
Don't beat me up to bad
Keep AP, let him QB/teach these young LB’s, he is one of the best in the league at it, think long term, and hes not done just yet TRUST. In my opinion Boley is an above average pass coverge LB so we should be good there with a little safety help. My thinking goes back to the argument that the D-line needs to help/give our LB’s a break in the run, which then falls on Fewell to fix the D-line, however possible. Consider all that money spent on the d-line last season.
If you want to go broke and move up it in the draft it better be Eric Berry, talk about a defensive game changer. I’m very nervous about KP having surgery and cartiledge inserted into his damn knee to repair it (keeping fingers crossed).
as a coach
i’d love to have him back. i think he’s done. if he does come back i hope he sees that his career could be over and he’s in better shape than the last couple seasons.
We should trade.
Our 15th pick or a later 1st, 2nd and 5 or 4th(if we can). Thats what we should do with more picks chances are we can get atleast 2 studs as rookies
I'm agreeing with the crowd here ...
that we really need more than just one guy, so trading up in what is being touted as a very deep draft is probably not the move.
If JR is looking at a LB, S or DT at # 15 that he thinks can actually be an impact player in 2010 then fine. I’d even be O.K. with a DT if he thinks it would help someone like Goff be able to perform better behind him.
Otherwise, I would hope we trade down, and go LB or S before DT. Ideally LB, but I’m not even sure what they will know about KP’s post-surgical status by draft day. If we did that trade down 10 slots to pick up an extra 2nd rounder, we could get one each of those 3 positions plus a RT prospect, that should all be decent players.
+1
and for Jdaking too…
trade down if possible and get more picks.
It gets late real early out here....
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 21, 2010 4:25 PM EST up reply actions
JR's not going for an MLB in the 1st like it or not
he’s going with a lineman….or trading down unless Mclain drops but he won’t,unless he runs slow at the combine!Would love to trade down and get extra picks…Def. looking 4 a starting caliber RT in the 1st v3 rounds and JR may rely on Fewell’s{can we call this guy FUEL?!…I love it!) magic on the S position.FA and late rounder on that pos. you can bet on it.JR wants to fix the culture up front/fix the run game.First thing is first and that means starting up front….don’t be surprised to see one of our existing S’s vastly improve!
I can can see Mike Johnson being a NFL safety again.
I can even see Ross being a good safety. Jairus Byrd..Fuel’s recent pot of gold with Buffalo, was a CB.
Ross has a ton of talent even if he gets hurt all the time.
I could see them waiting awhile to get a safety if they feel that’s the case.
…which could mean SPILLER in round one!
It gets late real early out here....
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 21, 2010 4:26 PM EST up reply actions
Doubt it.
If we want spiller we would have to trade up, I believe the Seahawks will take him with their second first rounder. And if we trade up it could mean a bad year for us, because we need a lot of defensive talent the players that we have aren’t cutting it.
I don't think so...
I mean, that’s why I said ‘could’, but the top 14 teams have plenty of other needs. The Gians…I think with a real DC will be able to get more out of their talent, which is still there.
This is why I like trading back, but if Spiller’s there and they really like Spiller…why not?
It gets late real early out here....
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 21, 2010 4:36 PM EST up reply actions
can always trade back in the 2nd or 3rd....
It gets late real early out here....
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 21, 2010 4:36 PM EST up reply actions
I’m already sick of the draft, and it won’t be for another few months.
What’s up with this primetime thing?
Does anyone actually think spreading the draft over 3 days and watching a bunch of guys calling people’s names is actually going to draw in a large crowd?
Never assume skill at bouncing a ball makes you smarter than the guy who built the court.
When there's a WILL there's a WAY
I'll bet is sets a record for posts on this board ...
I can just see all the “Yippe-ki-yay MF-er’s” if we somehow get McClain.
Just look at this thread. It can best be summed up as all of us playing amateur GM. That’s what us obsessed fans do. Draft Day is like a live Game Day thread for a GM wannabe.
I want a big fast, smart, excellent tackler, excellent leader..
I think his name is Bfsetel..Can’t pronounce his name right but he played for Outer-Space Tech..I’m sure Free knows the guy…If we can get him, we will have solved our need for a great MLB.
yup.
7"2 355lbs. runs a 3.5 40. long arms, quick…wasn’t just a coach on the field…WAS the coach.
True story..dude did a hand stand at midfield and INT’d a pass with his ass cheeks. Is there any doubt he could cover Jason Witten?
No..no doubt.
Only problem is Al Davis and the Raiders…they drafted Glondor last year tho, so maybe they got the BS position filled?
It gets late real early out here....
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 21, 2010 5:00 PM EST up reply actions
Ed, I am convinced your making your job here too too tough..
All you really need to do is state..MLB Breakdown….Then you and George, our Golf cart driver (as long as he doesn’t hog the beer) can go Golfing and read the mass hysteria..that results from your very simply stated position phrase..
LOL!!
How about a classified? “NFL Team seeks Middle Linebacker. Apply to J. Reese.”
by Ed Valentine on Jan 21, 2010 8:43 PM EST up reply actions
Ha!..that would work!..Just don't post it in the Personals..
Tiger Woods might respond..
I watched
Florida play several games this year. Like Free, I just can’t get a good feeling about Spikes. He appears fairly quick but stiff. He doesn’t flow to the play like a McClain. It is an overall bad impression of him that I can’t quite put my finger on. At any rate, I still think our number one need is safety, then DT and then LB. Playmaking safeties are worth their weight in gold.
For MLB
we shud sign Kirk Morrisson hes got speed and a great tackler
giants have 3 picks in the 1st 2 rounds (1 from the saints)
if they dont pick a linebacker i will probley cry cause they need a LB if they want to turn this D around, they should be plenty of LBs to chose from, and i would not be opposed if they picked up dansby or someone else to go along with the draft pick. i say we all act like jet fans and boo if they dont pick a LB.
by donnybaseball23 on Jan 21, 2010 9:55 PM EST reply actions
that was last year....
they only have their own picks this year.
And I say we never act like Jet fans…..
If a LB isn’t there…there’s no reason to give a reach around, ya capiche?
It gets late real early out here....
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 21, 2010 10:02 PM EST up reply actions
ok acting like jet fans was a bad idea.
i thought we had those picks this year, that really burst my buble i was really excited about those picks.
by donnybaseball23 on Jan 21, 2010 10:07 PM EST up reply actions
we could!
maybe someone gives a 2nd and 5th for Osi like we got for Shockey?
It gets late real early out here....
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 21, 2010 10:11 PM EST up reply actions
Personally
I think LB is less of a need than DT and S.
If we can get Brian Price in the 1st round then someone like Burnett in the 2nd I think that would be the most successful draft we can have. Then in the 3rd round we can go RB / OL / LB depending on bpa.
When you think about it at least Goff is young and (somewhat) athletic. At DT and S we have much bigger holes and less talented players.
by mclaren_is_the_best on Jan 22, 2010 12:23 AM EST reply actions
I know this is the MLB chapter of our frenzy..But I'm too lazy to post this in the DT thread.
What about this Gerald McCoy kid?..If we could get him, and Dallas drafted a guy named Hatfield at guard or tackle..We could keep the family feud going..
I'd love to....
He’ll be a top 5 pick tho…
You've got to be very careful if you don't know where you are going, because you might not get there- Yogi
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 22, 2010 8:21 AM EST up reply actions
Hello Mclain...
I’d take Spikes too. I want a MLB in the first round. Even if we have to trade up. I don’t care.
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