New York Giants position breakdowns: Defensive end
by Ed Valentine on Jan 20, 2010 12:00 PM EST
in New York Giants News
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PrintDefensive end is today's focus in our continuing series of New York Giants position-by-position breakdowns. It was supposed to be a position of nearly-unparalleled strength for the 2009 Giants. Instead, as a whole the DEs mirrored the rest of the defense -- they were disappointing.
I'm pretty certain this review will spark some argument, especially when it comes to Osi Umenyiora. One ground rule. No 'so-and-so would be great in the 3-4' in this thread, please. The Giants have been a 4-3 team, Perry Fewell has been a 4-3 coordinator and until we are told otherwise we will assume the Giants will remain a 4-3 team. So, let's keep the hypothetical scenarios out of this one.
Justin Tuck, Osi Umenyiora and Mathias Kiwanuka were supposed to be the cornerstones of a dominant 2009 New York Giants defense. Instead, we all know what happened. The defense collapsed in historic embarrassing fashion -- and the defensive ends have to take their fair share of the blame for that.
Umenyiora did not play up to his reputation, especially against the run. Thanks to Flozell Adams, Tuck played most of the season with one arm. He was good, but not the dominating player he had been the year before. Kiwanuka was solid, but did not take the leap forward as a play-making force we were all hoping to see.
The news at this position is not all bad, however. Despite the disappointment of 2009, these are still three very good players you can build a defense around. So, let's look at each player individually.
Osi Umenyiora: Contrary to what you might expect, I have not come to this discussion to bash Umenyiora. Or to demand that the Giants banish him to the NFL Siberia known as the Oakland Raiders for, say, a seventh-round pick and a couple of K Balls. To the probable surprise of many of you, I still believe Osi can be an important member of the Giants defense in the seasons to come.
First, let's be realistic about a few things. Umenyiora cannot be an every-down lineman if he continues to play the run as poorly as he did in 2009 (a -4.1 grade from Pro Football Focus). As I stated a few weeks ago, Umenyiora needs to look in the mirror and understand that he is not the same dominant player he was a few seasons ago.
Umenyiora has never been a great run defender, but he has usually been adequate. He graded a -0.2 in 2007, his last full season. He will still be just 28 when the 2010 season starts. Maybe, just maybe, another year removed from knee surgery and -- hopefully -- happier with new defensive coordinator Perry Fewell Osi will get closer to being the player we remember.
I have often said Osi doesn't show up on every play, or in every game. That was even more obvious in 2009. He still remains a pass-rushing force, though. He had just seven sacks in 2009, but many of his other pass-rushing numbers were still elite among 4-3 defensive ends.
He had 14 quarterback hits in 2009, tied with Minnesota's Jared Allen for seventh in the league. Add 19 pressures (a pedestrian 29th in the league) and Osi ended up with a +11.1 grade as a pass rusher, according to PFF. That ranked him 12th among pass-rushing defensive ends overall.
Osi still, obviously, has the ability to make difference-making plays coming off the edge as a pass rusher. It is not a skill that you simply toss away easily. Fewell's challenge here will be to maximize what Umenyiora does well, and find a way not to allow his deficiencies against the run to hurt the defense.
Mathias Kiwanuka: His sack number fell from a career-best eight in 2008 to just three in 2009. I have to wonder if that is more a function of Kiwanuka being used inside in pass-rush situations, where he is not as effective, and playing more defensive end in running situations than it was his actual performance.
By all other measurements, Kiwanuka actually played pretty well in 2009.
- He made a career-high 76 tackles.
- He had 14 quarterback hits (7th in the league) and 26 quarterback pressures (11th) despite playing fewer snaps than almost all of the players ahead of him.
- Overall, PFF graded him at +1.4.
How to best utilize Kiwanuka seems to be a perennial question with the Giants. He is a good player, and the Giants have to find ways to utilize both him and Umenyiora.
Justin Tuck: We know the story with Tuck. He played most of 2009 with a torn labrum. He still played effectively, grading out at +13.9 in PFF's ratings, 7th among 4-3 defensive ends. He had eight sacks. Those numbers are OK, but not what Tuck can do with two good arms.
In 2008, Tuck had 13 sacks and graded at +26.2, 3rd in the league. The Giants have to hope that is the kind of performance they get from their best defensive player in 2010.
I would also like to see Tuck take a more vocal leadership role, calling out players for making mistakes or not working hard enough.
Dave Tollefson: I am pretty ambivalent when it comes to Tollefson. He's a decent role player, but whether the Giants keep him for veteran depth and special teams play, or jettison him in favor of a draft pickup or veteran free-agent acquisition really makes no difference to me. Tollefson is not going to make or break the Giants defense, or special teams. Statistically, this was the worst of Tollefson's three Giant seasons, as he graded out at -8-5, according to PFF. Like I said, whether he stays or goes I don't think Tollefson is, or should be, a major concern.
Keep: Tuck, Kiwanuka, Tollefson, Umenyiora
Dump: Nobody
Draft/Free Agency Priority (1 being the highest, 5 the lowest): 3-4. I can see taking one somewhere along the way in the draft, but it isn't a huge need.
(E-mail Ed at bigblueview@gmail.com)
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Brandon Graham or Jeremy Beal is a good pick
They’re projected 2nd or 3rd round picks. Beal was a stud for OK and Graham was the only bright spot on the Michigan D-line.
no way
they’re not, nor should they, going to spend a 2nd or 3rd on a DE. A drafted DE might not even make the team
That depends
If you were to trade Osi you can make an argument that an impact DE would be a good pick.
by Ed Valentine on Jan 21, 2010 8:01 AM EST up reply actions
Osi
I still have profound doubts about Osi. His best year had Strahan at the other end absorbing the double team. Last season injured, this season, mediocre. He is beginning to look like a poser with every week “We know what we have to do speech” then failing to do anything at all. Throw out the weird game against the Eagles during the SB season where he had the six-sacks & his numbers are even less impressive. he could be a Shockey here, I say move him if the deal is right.
Nothing Is Fool proof if you have the right fools.
by GiantsCauseway on Jan 20, 2010 12:13 PM EST reply actions
Shockey
Shockey was never a poser – statistically he was a top 5 TE when he played in NY. if you didnt’ like him it doesn’t matter – he never basically fell off like Osi.
Rams trading for Osi
Turf Show Times – the Rams SB Nation blog – has a post about the Rams trading for Osi.
http://www.turfshowtimes.com/2010/1/2/1230986/could-the-rams-make-a-play-for-osi
Trading Osi
Without doubt, there are scenarios in which the Giants could move Osi — and the Rams are a possible landing spot. I just doubt the Giants could really get value in return.
Osi being moved is possible, though.
by Ed Valentine on Jan 20, 2010 12:29 PM EST up reply actions
what i find interesting about this....
if it’s true of course.
is that Osi’s name popped up….as opposed to Kiwi’s name.
Obviously Spags knows both players….some could argue Kiwi is the better fit, he’s younger, cheaper, former 1st round pick….but yet Osi’s name is the name that is being circulated.
"If you don't know what you're doing... just rush the quarterback" - LT
That was purely
speculation from the blog.
by Ed Valentine on Jan 20, 2010 2:12 PM EST up reply actions
Trading Osi
It’s so tough because you don’t know what this guy is going to do when he gets to training camp. We don’t want another situation that we had with Shockey where we had to trade him in August when really it would’ve been better to get that done during the draft.
Hopefully Perry can assess his attitude really quick to see where he is at. Maybe it takes a couple video tape sessions to show his faults and how he can correct it. If he takes the criticism like a baby then we got to get rid of him and if not, then he comes back to camp knowing what he needs to work on.
Osi just needs an attitude adjustment
Thats all i think it is. Get someone to light a fire underneath him and he returns to form. He also needs to hit the squats hard this offseason. The offseason knee surgery has hurt him this year and it was obvious by how poorly he played the run. Couldnt get off his blocks.
Tuck will be A-OK. get the shoulder healed up and this freak of nature will dominate.
Kiwanuka is interesting. His skills are pretty much nullified when asked to play inside so perry will have to find some way to use him on top of a rotation keep the line fresh guy. Maybe get him in on the LE on passing downs and move tuck inside on top of the normal rotation he’d see.
Tollefson did fine as a back-up and ST player. I say keep him.
We CANNOT trade/get rid of Osi just yet. have to give him another year under a new coach to see if he performs. Another year like this past one though and its time to part ways.
Give me work release or give me death - #17
by Plaxico Burress on Jan 20, 2010 12:17 PM EST reply actions
Another year like last year
And he is worthless in the trade market, at that point you minus well keep him for 3.5mil who cares, as long as he isn’t a distraction…
All's Well that Fewell
I agree, I think the DE’s will be fine next year. I have zero concern about Tuck, He will bounce back in a big way. I also think Osi will be better. As Ed mentioned, Osi was coming off of major knee surgery. In my opinion his knee wasnt as strong and he wasnt as explosive. As a result i think he was selling out to get to the QB instead. I think the knee gets stronger and he gets that extra step back. He will be a double digit sack guy and back to being mediocre against the run. If he gets after the QB like he has in the past I can live w/medicore run defense.
Osi
Remember that he is just 28. He isn’t a 30+ guy, so he should have some good football left. He needs to make some changes in his approach, but I think he can still play. Maybe not at 2005 levels, but he can play.
by Ed Valentine on Jan 20, 2010 12:31 PM EST up reply actions
Overall, and whats interesting
Is that yes, Osi still probably has some good football left in him. As for Osi himself, he did get off on the wrong foot to begin with, then he got demoted. With Fewell, everyones slate has been wiped clean, and regardless, everyone will be evaluated and everyone will all have to learn something new.
If Fewell is more player friendlier, than what he can sell to Osi, perhaps he can embrace this and be more dominant? What this role may be, could be very productive? I just get keep thinking that Osi is in the same mold as Simeon Rice. We all know that Rice was pretty good!
Agree on Osi
It seems like it takes a full season to come back from those types of knee injuries. That’s why they’re so damaging; the player is out for the year he is hurt and there is no way he is back at 100% the following season as well.
So let’s hope that Osi was frustrated that he was never at full speed this year – and perhaps that compounded with his negative feelings on Sheriden is perhaps somewhat of an explanation for the downturn in his play.
His piss-poor attitude on the other hand…there’s no explanation for that!
I agree Frank,
I think that healthy players and a new, energetic DC that knows how to play the players to their strengths will make all the difference. Hopefully the days of seeing Canty, and Osi in coverage are gone. A healthy, dominant Tuck will equal a better Osi.
I still like em all
I think Osi really just clashed with Sheridan…maybe that was the only problem?
Fewell seems like the type of firey dude to stand right up to Osi..demote him to ST or something like that if he acts up.
The only reason they should look at trading Osi, is if he’s determined to be a locker room cancer. I do expect him to have a bounce back year, so if his mind is right…I see no reason to get rid of him.
It gets late real early out here....
+1
The only way I trade Osi is for a #1 and I don’t see that happening.
Like you I also expect him to have a bounce back year. However, Osi needs to face reality. He’s not a pro-bowl DE. His ego is too large.
Ask Brooklyn Al
He traded the 2011 first round pick for Seymour, who is 30-years-old. I bet the Giants could trade Osi to the Raiders for their first round pick this year.
Still not sold on osi yet
but not sure we should sell off Osi yet. A real catch 22.
I agree Ed..no major problems at end..
I also think our tackles or lack thereof had placed alot of pressure on our ends..We had zero push up the middle for the most part so certainly fixing that along with a healthy Tuck will help..Maybe even Osi does in fact come in 100% with a chip on his shoulder that he wants to prove his critics wrong..I think Kiwi will be fine..He’s been bounced around alot so it will be good if they can find the guy a spot and let him play it consistently..He has proven to be the most versatile of the bunch in regard to filling many roles…Tollefson is not a problem either..So, if there is something in the lower rounds I would grab it, but if not I don’t envision a problem here.
What has Kiwi really done?
I say it over and over, but he’s Mister “Almost-Made-A-Huge-Sack-But-McNabb-Ends-Up-Converting-A-3rd-And-22.”
Kid needs to break out, quicklike. And I wouldn’t trade Osi unless someone’s ready to wildly overpay. I still remember seven sacks against the Iggles. It keeps me warm at night.
Justin Tuck = our best defensive player. Someone get him a snack.
I left my swagger in my other pants.
I agree w/ you 100%
and i’ve been rather critical of Kiwi for the past year and a half.
i remember when he was drafted the only knock on him was that he really didn’t play to his “size”. I think someone else called him “soft” and to be completely honest with you I haven’t really seen anything from Kiwi that would make me think otherwise.
It’s not like he’s a 2nd year player anymore….
"If you don't know what you're doing... just rush the quarterback" - LT
Well, Kiwi almost sacked Vince Young ...
to ice that game in Tenn. a couple of years ago, but then let him go, and we lost. Not exactly a “killer instinct” there.
I think that's the play hugh is referring to....
one of the worst games i’ve ever had to witness….to blow a 21 point lead w/ 9 minutes to go?!?! un real.
at least we made the playoffs that year.
"If you don't know what you're doing... just rush the quarterback" - LT
That's not how I remember it...
I remember Kiwanuka getting a roughin the passer penalty on the previous
play!!!
He had Young in his grasp on the next play and was lookin at the ref for a whistle
when Young breaks free and…
I think that was a huge BS call by the ref’s NOT a problem w/ Kiwanuka.
Amen bro!
Death to the ref! I know eXACTLY the play you’re talking about
You play to win the game!
by Simms-McConkey on Jan 21, 2010 8:48 AM EST up reply actions
Disagree Completely on Kiwi
First off, with the Giants keeping all three ends, then playing Kiwi INSIDE – its a miracle he can get production at all. He does not have the build to play inside.
Secondly, he is a “motor” guy. I see him hustling on EVERY play, running downfield to make tackles. I cannot say the same about OSI, he consistently takes plays off and sucks against the run.
Offered a choice I would keep Kiwi over Osi in a heartbeat. If you put him at end (not LB, not DT, etc ) and let him STAY there and learn the position. I think we would be better off.
Way to manage this bunch Ed!
“Let’s keep the hypothetical scenarios out of this one.”
In a 4-3 D, a three DE rotation of Tuck, Kiwi and Osi makes a lot of sense. Osi had a bad year. Give him 2010 to show it was an abberation. And like Free says – maybe it was all Sheridan. After all, Osi is not the only one to have a bad year in ’09.
Agree with your post, but one question. Where does Sintim fit in in all this? This board was drooling at the thought of getting this guy and now he gets no love at all.
Can he be a starting SLB or is he a situational pass rusher – like Osi…and like Kiwi it seems. How many 250 lb DEs do we need?
Tollefson? Bring him to camp and let him win a spot.
Sintim
That’s a good question. The guy has talent, we will just have to see. He could be a good strong-side LB, the question is going to be how well his coverage skills develop. He can rush the passer as a DE, but I doubt he is big enough to handle run defense as a DE.
by Ed Valentine on Jan 20, 2010 2:13 PM EST up reply actions
Tollefson vs. Sintim
The only difference is that Sintim is one inch shorter but they’re basically the same weight around 255’ish. Sintim could very well be more of an DE in the T2, if he has questionable coverage skills. So given the investment in Sintim, Tollefson could very well have to fight his way onto the roster?!
I agree...
I think we should count sintim as a pass rushing DE and dump Tollefson. The only problem is that then we are a little short on run stopping DEs.
good point
this board, myself included, was drooling over sintim.
he should be used as a blitzing LB (not a specialty in the Tampa 2),
Osi gets another year, and i’m sure he’ll be fine, but it depends a lot on the interior push (where oh, where has alford gone?)
Both Osi and Sintim might end up being situational in this new system.
Those stats are misleading
While you showed their sacks, rankings, pressures, etc., you didn’t really take into account the bulk of the season. As I recall, the Giants had 32 sacks this year (if I’m not mistaken), and 18 of them came in just 4 games: Washington (2X), Oakland, Kansas City. That’s 14 sacks in 12 other games.
Pitiful. 5-0, going into a big matchup, and their defensive ends decide to quit pressuring the QB…I can’t see any of them having a positive ranking as a pass rusher, because in their non-cupcake games, they were absolutely horrible.
I know that
there were a lot of games where they did nothing. But, overall, they aren’t horrible.
by Ed Valentine on Jan 20, 2010 3:01 PM EST up reply actions
You can't take sacks away
The sacks in the 4 games are still an accomplishment. Did they not win those games. I hate when people say “Six of Osi’s sacks came in one game against the eagles” like he shouldn’t get credit for those sacks. He single handedly abused Justice (was it Justice?) and McNabb, and they won because of it. People deserve credit for solid performances, the only argument you have is consistency.
Well Ed, I can tell the official offseason is upon us..
I am trying to focus on working with y’all to dissect our team and identify weaknesses and critical needs, but since my Cowboy fan Wifes team lost on Sunday, the feared, bone-shaking, shivers down spine fearful “Honey-Do List” has been not only ressurected, but added to..Here I am trying to figure out how to find a good DT, and she is trying to figure out when I am going to do something useful…It started first thing Monday..“When are you going to do this..When are you going to do that?!?”…I try to tell her I am working on solving some serious problems with my team here !!..She has the audacity to tell me that “people are getting paid to do that..and if you don’t start solving some things around here…you won’t be getting a paycheck from me, if you catch my drift” !!!..Alas, the dreaded offseason has arrived and I am screwed..NOT if I caught her drift right..hahaha
my Cowboy fan Wife
things now can’t be much worst now than after that 2007 COWBOYS-GIANTS playoff game huh??
file for welfare
just a thought- maybe she’ll still slip you a paycheck here and there, if you catch my drift.
Osi's knee and Tuck's shoulder
I had 2 ACL replacements in a row on the same knee. It takes 18 months to feel like you have a normal knee.
About 6 months for flexibility and muscle regeneration, another 6 months before your body fully recognizes the new tissue as your own, then another 3-6 months for muscle building (I’m 32 and down to working the knee once a week…but I’m not trying to push 300lb guys around either). You have limited explosiveness and cutting ability until then.
A ligament replacement is actually stronger than the original because they loop it, essentially making for 2 ligaments where there was one. The real challenge is building the muscles around it back up. That’s what takes Osi more than just one off season.
So couple a healthy knee with a healthy Tuck drawing double teams again and Osi should have a solid rebound year.
Pic
Just want to say that I love that picture. It’s like Osi’s saying: “Yay! Sack!” Makes me chuckle.
The D-Line didn’t make me chuckle this year however. Our supposedly unbeatable Tuck/Osi/Canty/Kiwi rotation fell flat on its face. Are we going to keep trying to use Canty as an end on occassion? I’m hoping we draft a late round DE so we can groom him alongside Tuck. More youth in our strongest position is not a bad thing. Imagine if Tuck, Osi, and Canty rebound, and we have some mutant five man end/tackle rotation of Tuck, Osi, Canty, Kiwi, and some rookie. That’d be kinda… you know… rape on toast. If that makes any sense.
You make a good point here Jay..
I blew both my knees up in a Ski Race in the early 70’s..They have far better procedures these days than they did back then..I went from running the 100 in 9.6 to never ever coming close to 11.0…So all aspirations I had in Football and Skiing got flushed down the toilet during a downhill race in a blizzard…But I agree and think Osi will be back..You and I obviously both know why he isn’t cutting..It is not that he can’t, it is due to being very tentative and wary about it..Basically he’s made it through the season and that will help him get that out of his head which is where it is at at this point..This type of injury gets in your head and it is hard to overcome.
Very true
Whenever I play intense sports now (football, softball, ice skating, skiing) I wear the brace. It doesn’t hinder me, in fact I don’t even notice it anymore. But it cures that hesitation in the back of my mind.
I think Osi should wear one the rest of his career to help with that and to protect that knee. And I actually think all guys that play inside (ie. rarely have to run a 50 yard dash) would be benefited by wearing braces on both knees as a preventive measure, the same reason they wear thigh pads.
That picture is awesome
Osi just leaped on Campbell and stayed on for the ride.
The optimist in me wants to say they’ll be fine next year. I could never imagine facing 300 lb linesmen with one arm, and to do that, I immensely respect Tuck for that. I think he can be a better leader. Romo and Wade Phillips, of all people, were able to do that this year, I’m sure Tuck can do it next year.
Never assume skill at bouncing a ball makes you smarter than the guy who built the court.
When there's a WILL there's a WAY
Ref the pic
I’m not a Deadskin fan, but I felt bad for Campbell in that game. I’ll give the kid his props, he was like a Timex watch, he took a lickin but kept on tickin. What an asswhoopin he took that night. I can’t stand the Deadskins, but I have no problems with Campbell.
Campbell's a good sport
I’m sure if he stays with Shanahan, he’ll be better and more content.
Never assume skill at bouncing a ball makes you smarter than the guy who built the court.
When there's a WILL there's a WAY
Campbell
That is like tackling a retard. That guy was almost robotic.
I’m so tired of watching teams draft QB’s becuase ’They got a big arm"
Look at the list of Greatest QB’s of All-Time and see which ones have the Big Arm. Not in order and I’m not up for debate…just a list off the top of my head.
1. Bradshaw (debatable big arm)
2. Elway (big arm)
3. B. Griese
4. Marino (big arm)
5. Montana
6. Namanth (I disagree but usually in the top 10)
7. Bart Starr
8. Stuabach (I think a above average)
9. Tarkenton
10. Unitas
11. Brady
12. Peyton
13. Favre (yep)
5 ot of 13. Maybe it’s better to get a QB from a college that had a Pro throwing attack a la Brees at Purdue.
So
Wow
i really got off topic there.
…but no points for tackling a Tard like Campbell.
Campbell is alot better than you think
Take a look at the line the poor guy is stuck behind
the skins place zero importance on the O line
the last top round pick was Chris Samuels
with a makeshift line he was still able to take the saints to the limit
if it wasnt for a shitty kicker they would of beat em
You can see a lot just by observing-Yogi Berra
Next?
Find a way to plug the holes in the LB’s, S, RB and OL in rounds 5-7.
Make sure those 5-7th rounders are bonafide starters too…cuz there are no safeties..the LB’s are a ?, could use a starting RT and all of our RB’s had offseason surgery.
Still wanna get Suh?
It gets late real early out here....
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 20, 2010 3:44 PM EST up reply actions
My retort
Your assumption is that in order for the Giants to get #1 away from the Rams is by trading our rounds 1-4. That’s not going to happen. Osi is worth at least a third rounder. So, package Osi, our first round, maybe our 3rd round, and a conditional round 1 or 2 pick next year based on Osi’s performance. Not only does Spags get a good DE, he also gets someone who knows his defense. The Rams would be idiots not to take it, rather than drafting a sub-par QB too high or adding yet another DT to their roster. That leaves us with the overall #1, our 2nd round, 4th through 7th rounds. Yeah, next year we lose either our first or second round, but dude, Suh is worth it. Trust me on that one. He will help cover up the holes we have at LB and help the DEs get penetration.
It's a pipe dream
The Rams won’t give up the first pick for another first pick and Osi.
See the jets-cleveland trade for an idea of the scope of trading up that much.
The only reason they got it done was because Mangini was obsessed with the Jet’s backup players, and it still cost them half the draft.
Never assume skill at bouncing a ball makes you smarter than the guy who built the court.
When there's a WILL there's a WAY
I'm not trading next year's pick....
there’s a couple of teams right now…regretting that drastically…even the Bears and they traded it for a Franchise QB.
If Osi is really worth a 3rd round…
They HAVE to give up their 1st and 2nd, and probably 4th..and probably that conditional pick next year. They have the #15 pick…not the 4th.
that’s 3 rooks, one Osi (whatever he is) and next year’s pick…which could be high or low…
…all for one player. Maybe a great player…but one player.
They need parts. They need more then a DT.
MUCH rather go and get a solid player in the first, 2nd and 3rd…maybe even trade down and accumulate some picks and get an extra 2nd or 3rd.
One All-Pro…is not gonna make up for a team full of solid players.
Suh’s not gonna cover up everything like he did in college..at least right away.
It gets late real early out here....
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 20, 2010 5:35 PM EST up reply actions
all good points
They get Suh then Carriker becomes expandable maybe we can get him… no draft picks we need them, if they want osi and our 1 for their one, fine, but they wont so yeah put the dream in a pipe and smoke it, cause you must already be…
All's Well that Fewell
Trade OSI
Trade OSI in combination with one of the following in order of preference:
1) Move all the way up and take Suh. I hope they have the sack, Accorsi did with Eli and it worked out – why not now?
2) Move up and take Berry. Although my rule is don’t draft a safety (or TE, LB, C or G) in the first round – if you think you are going to get the next Ed Reed you have to do it.
3) Get additional pick(s) in the first round and take another DT, LB or S OR as long as we get an additional high pick I am ok and will understand if they take a RB if the right one is there.
Regargless of Osi problems, he would command premium compensation from somebody simply for his pass rushing abilities – the position is coveted. I still maintain that keep all three of our guys is a waste and luxury we cannot afford with gaping holes on D.
To Point # 1 ...
Call Coach Ditka and ask what it took to move up to get Ricky Williams (A. his entire draft) and that wasn’t even moving from #15 to #1.
Osi + #15 for #1
Someone on this board said it.
Spags would love to get Osi and would get the most out of him making the Giants look bad but if it gets Suh for the Giants then maybe everyone wins?
It would never happen
to quote what I said a little above:
The Rams won’t give up the first pick for another first pick and Osi.
See the jets-cleveland trade for an idea of the scope of trading up that much.
The only reason they got it done was because Mangini was obsessed with the Jet’s backup players, and it still cost them half the draft.
Never assume skill at bouncing a ball makes you smarter than the guy who built the court.
When there's a WILL there's a WAY
Guys
ONLY Osi thinks he’s a GREAT player. Not even Spags thinks he’s more than a decent DE at this point.
We wouldn’t get anything higher than a 3rd round pick.
Osi
If all they offer us is a 3rd then we minus well keep him for two years just a little more then 3mil a year 28yrs old, we’d be pretty dumb to give him away for a 3rd… if we get more value tho i’m all for it, value meaning more then a 3rd even the rams 1st pick in the third round… i’d take their second rounder lol
All's Well that Fewell
Of all people...
Spags knows what Osi is. Osi was good..not great in 2007. They had Strahan and Tuck on that line.
The line was overall better in 2008 anyway..until they wore down….and uh, Osi wasn’t on that one.
the only reason the Giants trade up…maybe as high as #9 or something, is cuz someone like Gerald McCoy, Rolando McClain or Eric Berry are falling for lord knows what reason.
This team has too many holes on the defensive and offensive side of the ball.
Don’t the Redskins provide a good example of why you keep your draft picks? Depth, solid role players…all of that is much better then one player.
…cuz what if that one player gets hurt?
Suh..is not an option. Period.
It gets late real early out here....
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 20, 2010 5:42 PM EST up reply actions
That was my saying
but yeah, FB said it a bit better than I did
Never assume skill at bouncing a ball makes you smarter than the guy who built the court.
When there's a WILL there's a WAY
Agree for the most part with what I've read here ...
but:
1. Osi had a torn meniscus, not an ACL. I think that injury should be less of a joint stability issue, and thus not an issue in 2010 and beyond. He’s got to get over the psychological barrier to put full weight and stress on it again.
2. Osi is a legend in his own mind, and not a great locker room influence. He does have to STFU as cited earlier on this board, and show he still has it.
3. Tuck is a beast, a great locker room presence, and I think the leader of the defense post-AP (which had better be now).
4. Osi and Kiwi are both situational pass rushers who are weak on the run, and the NFL is no longer a “1st down is a running down” for a lot of teams (Eagles). Also, Sintim seems to flash more ability in this role than as a stand-up linebacker, so we may have a glut here.
5. On pure passing downs, Tuck and Alford inside, with Osi, Kiwi, Sintim ? potentially from the edge. But the question remains – how do we stop the run ?
i hate when ppl start talking about being a great lockeroom prescence
none of us were in the locker room to gauge whether or not Osi was a whatever influence. Unless your like that guy in the McDonald’s commercial Shof(getting everybodies meals) you don’t know what other people in that locker room think of Osi.
I’ll give you a just as un-scientific based opinion, if any of you guys watch Giants Access Blue, they’ve shown the cameras on the sidelines catching Tuck and Osi acting like brothers from another mother. At the same time, Big Boy claims Osi is his best friend on the team, and was the first Giant he seeked out after that 74 yarder against the Boys, and numerous other times. At the same time they show Tuck hazing Sintim during a game, making him carry his helmet after the game, reminding him that he’s “still a rookie.” Sintim didn’t seem to happy about that. So should i assume then that maybe Sintim isn’t feeling Tuck, and everybody loves Osi from that evidence? Of course not.
Just like we should not claim Osi to be this horrible locker room prescence with just as much evidence.
btw, not picking on you Shof, just a pet peeve of mine.
Didn't mean the label "locker room guy" ...
so literally, as just what goes on in the locker room, but rather as a label I think credited to Parcells, as to the guys that he needed to be veteran leadership on and off the field, to sort of police things from within.
Things like Osi’s AWOL escapade in camp, constant yapping in the press, and sometimes ranting at team mates on the side lines when things go wrong, which looks alot more like the T.O. blame game than a Strahan exhorting his team to do better, start to add up.
I’m sure Osi is well liked as an individual amongst his team mates, but so was Plax. But the actions of Plax in showing up his QB, F-bombing TC after getting a stupid 15-yarder, violating scores of team rules, etc. makes him a bad “locker room guy” in my book. Hell, even T.O. had 1/2 the Eagles who liked him, and 1/2 who thought he was a douche-bag (the “right” half). In his case, bad “locker room guy” much more literal.
BTW, I don’t put Osi in the same category as Plax or T.O. on this, but when you’re not producing, it’s tough to let that stuff slide, and we are short on leadership in general.
but Osi didn’t do the stuff that Plax did, he was just mad that the entire team was playing like crap…… At least someone cares and realizes that how they were playing was not alright.
Also he doesn’t “constantly yapp” to the press, they interview the entire team after every game.
He handled going from an All-Pro to benched much better than most players as well.
by mclaren_is_the_best on Jan 20, 2010 8:36 PM EST up reply actions
I agree with mclaren
and not to be an osi apologist, but most stars would take the demotion much worse than he. it wasn’t until the 2nd to last game when the whole team was playing bad that his cracks started to show. pressure bust pipes!!!
if the game that osi went out there on the sideline and amped everyone up worked, we’d be singing a different tune about that day. maybe he would be that “vocal leader” that everyone seems so hellbent to need. and osi is not the 1st player to walk out or sit out or whatever. let’s remember a goofy looking gapped tooth future HOF that sit out all of camp because he didn’t feel like it. we all got on him then, talking about how it would hurt team morale. how’d we do again that season?
Osi
Needs to use a little more discression. If he wasn’t a distraction in the locker room, he was a distraction in the media. regardless, he didn’t earn that right this season.
The problem with Osi
is not that he was terrible. As you show, he was poor against the run but somewhat better than average against the pass – in sum, he was mediocre. However, in 2009 he was not the Pro Bowl DE we were hoping for (except possibly in his own mind), and, with poor play from the rest of the DL, his shortcomings really stood out. Right now he is an average DE with an attitude.
It may be that as time passes he will return to his Pro Bowl form. However, if the Giants were to be offered something like a high second round pick and a chance to transfer the risk and the attitude to someone else, I think they should take it.
As for Kiwanuka, I don’t see that he is quick enough to offset his lack of strength and be an every-down DE.
Three of the four DEs (I include Tollefson here) are at this time situational pass rushers. They need another DE who can play the run as well. I would give this area at least 2-3 in draft priority.
Mickey C
I mean YES to knock the giants
but the old addage ’you can never have too many pass rushers" has finally caught up for them (and for that matter, converted a 15 yard strip sack). It seems that the emphasis on pass rushers caught up with them when not one player on the line, save for 1/2 of the mighty tuck and maybe cofield, were consistently tackling
I doubt Tuck will ever be much of a vocal leader for the defense.
It’s just not his nature. Not every great player can be. I have no problem with that. I do think he will rebound next year and will likely let his play do the talking.
If I owned the Giants I would hire Harry Carson to be the leader of the defense. Not the coach but simply the inspiration to play hard for one of the best defensive leaders ever to play the game. Come to think of it I might suit him up too, because he looks like he could still play….LOL
by giant fan since 57 on Jan 20, 2010 5:28 PM EST reply actions
I'm tellin' ya,
the guy you want for that job is Keith Hamilton. All he’d have to do is put on a pair of badass shades and sit in the locker room. Tell me you’d want to come back and face that dude after a bad loss.
I left my swagger in my other pants.
i'm calling for S. Smith for vocal leader of offense
He’s a bit laid back, but doesn’t mind the attention. if nothing else, he earned his voice.
Tuck not a vocal leader
He’s all over that Subway commercial. you mean he can make an azz of himself on TV but can’t be a leader of a team?
Argh!!
You’re right. Doesn’t change the analysis, but I hate getting facts wrong. Pro Football Focus has 8, but everywhere else lists 6. Bizarre.
by Ed Valentine on Jan 20, 2010 6:16 PM EST up reply actions
Tuck or Kiwanuka at DT
Last year we played a game and in some plays tuck osi and kiwanuka were on the line. and we had got pressure on the QB. I think we should do that a bit more
they used to always do that
the line is useless with Kiwi as the DT, cuz he’s not that strong. This is a big reason why the defense sucked in 2009, cuz Kiwi was the DT a lot cuz of Tuck’s injury.
But when Tuck was healthy…he was ideal for that cuz of his strength. That’s why 2008 they were a better DL then in 2007….
It gets late real early out here....
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 20, 2010 6:30 PM EST up reply actions
I say
keep osi! i still think he can prove himself and rack up the sacks next year!
If we could trade for Darnell Dockett that wouls be great for the right price
AND for MLB how about Kirk Morrisson from the Raiders! kids got speed and a sure tackler
Kirk Morrisson
I brought him up the other day i like him a lot.
or there other stud Howard
there gonna have a hard time keeping both, and Howard had a down year. they might be looking to cut ties.
so is Morrison.
It gets late real early out here....
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 20, 2010 6:30 PM EST up reply actions
Someones going
b/t them too and the money they have tied up in Seymour, there’s gotta be an odd man out. Plus i’m sure Nmandi’s gotta be getting a good penny.
Blame it all on there boy Jamarcus!
Not really
UFA means they could sign to any team which Morrison is.
Howard is a RFA, RFA’s have to sign back with there old team unless they want to sit out a year
I thought an RFA could sign with another team ...
but current team could match or let him walk with compensating picks from the signing team, determined by the salary level they had tendered him at.
Nuh Uh.
Morrison is a UFA
http://raiderbeat.com/?p=6716 list of UFA right there
that's wrong.
Morrison was drafted in 2005, that’s 5 seasons of tenure, that’s less then the 6 required for UFA.
It gets late real early out here....
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 20, 2010 7:08 PM EST up reply actions
as evidence by this list
saying Cofield is a UFA…when I know for a fact Cofield is a RFA
It gets late real early out here....
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 20, 2010 7:10 PM EST up reply actions
He would be UFA
If we had a CBA, but no CBA means you need 6yrs to be a UFA or you automatically become RFA and this is why the Free Agency pool is DRY!!!
All's Well that Fewell
Good breakdown Ed
And yes i was one of those that was waiting for that patented Ed jab to Osi’s gut. once again you show your professionalism, that’s why i come here.
I agree with you assessment, and i’d put the draft priority even lower here. A few reasons. First, we’re not dealing with any age issues here. If i’m not mistaken, Osi is our oldest end at 28 right? Tuck is around 26, same for Kiwi, and i’m sure Tollefson is younger than 30 too. so we don’t have anyone on the other side of great. if this was Madden, there ratings would all still be rising. If you draft someone now, they would be stuck behind 1 to 2 other guys in the depth chart for the next 3 years or so. and that’s only assuming they don’t resign a Kiwi, or trade an Osi. if either of the two things happened, they’d still be behind the other + Tuck. and we’re not adding in one other big x-factor: Clint Sint.
there’s a possibility we may have drafted our DE of the future last draft in Sintim. Or if not, a hybrid end, someone who may put his hand on the ground for half the game(think Brian Orakpo of the Skins). If he can’t make the transition smoothly to strong side, then he will be put in a position to do what comes naturally to him. That would put any draft pick even further down the depth chart.
Someone else here mentioned we only have 1 every down end. Alot of teams do, not many ppl can have a freeney/mathis bookend. and mathis has only been a starter for the past 2 years or so. before that he was a pass rushing specialist. so anyone can develop if they have that desire.
One more thing. i’m still for Canty to be part of the end rotation as well. he’s so freakishly big, he’d cause problems in alot of ways. One, for the QB that has been used to looking over the ends, now they have an extra four inches plus wingspan to worry about knocking the ball down. Two, for the Tackles who may have been manhandling a smaller End all game, well now they have to pick on someone there own size. And 3, i think he’d be an asset on rushing downs out there. think of the beef on a line of: Canty, Alford, Cofield, and either Tuck, Kiwi, or Sintim on the other side. 3rd and 2 just got a lot harder for (insert opposing RB here).
Ahhhh
“If this was Madden…”
Yes, my friend, I start the day every day with that same quote.
If this was Madden the giants would be in good shape, young guys all over the roster, trade your 2nd and 3rd pick to the Raiders for their 1st, draft the WR with the 4.26 40, sign a FA then trade him for another RB, and pick up some of the other untested rookies, using the ‘Training Camp’ to boost their ratings (remember if you hit reset before the playstation saves, you can try the drill again). All in all, a foolproof way to construct a winning frachise, I just wish Jerry Reese was reading.
Mel Kiper on the Giants in his chat
Mel Kiper had a chat today and discussed the Giants in 3 responses.
Kiper thinks the Giants need DL, MLB, RT, DB, and RB. Basically, that’s DT, MLB, RT, S, and RB. Everyone agrees with that.
He thinks the Giants are a possible landing spot for Toby Gerhart in the later rounds. I don’t know much about him but I’d prefer a dynamic speedster like Felix Jones. That leads me to the next point.
In response to a question about CJ Spiller, the first team he mentions is the Giants. He thinks that Spiller would be great as part of a RB-by-committee and as a return man. I completely agree. He would definitely fill the the need for a dynamic RB and return man. However, I’m not feeling taking a RB that early with all the defensive holes this team has. The Giants have Jacobs, Bradshaw, Ware, Brown, and Johnson. Even if they waive Ware and leave Johnson on the practice squad, do they really need a RB enough to pick one up at #15? I say no.
http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/chat/_/id/30423/football-guru-mel-kiper
Brown was a question mark coming in
can we agree he’s a ‘doubly’ question mark now. he’s so doubly that he might even be an answer. THAT’S IT! Andre Brown is THE ANSWER to the NY Giants 2010 season!!!
Well ...
I think that is way overboard. You have a running back coming off Achilles Tendon surgery, which is a devastating injury for a guy who makes his living trying to plant and cut and make explosive movements. There is no guarantee he will ever be the player he could have been, and we don’t even know what kind of player that was.
by Ed Valentine on Jan 21, 2010 8:04 AM EST up reply actions
Osi and the "attitude issue"
I never heard a peep about Osi’s attitude before his issues with Sheridan,I always believed he was going to be the locker room leader after Strahan retired,Unfotunatley he tore his meniscus before the 08 season started and when he returned the fireworks started with Sheridan.As Jay stated ealier in the post 18 months is more likely for him to have his strength completley back to pre injury levels.With Tuck healthy and Kiwi in the rotation I think this line will be fine with Fewell calling the shots
We dont know what really happened that day but with all of Sheridans failures I am not ready to give up on Osi
You can see a lot just by observing-Yogi Berra
I feel like those 76 tackles by Kiwi are a good indication...
that he could be a very good 3-4 end. Thats not to say this is a post where I am advocating a switch. rather i enjoy the speculation of how Kiwi’s LB career couldve panned out had he stayed at that position
I don't need birthdays. I buy myself everything I need and because of my drinking its often a surprise
U mean 3-4 OLB??
A 3-4 end would make him a DT basically.. not sure thats for him and from your comment it doesn’t go you said LB career… I’m assuming you ment 3-4 OLB and in that case, Agreed.
All's Well that Fewell
ahaha totally meant LB..stupid brain
I thik he could be a 3-4 LB easily but he also was coming along nicely in the 4-3 as a LB in 07 before being injured. Would be neat to have seen if that panned out
I don't need birthdays. I buy myself everything I need and because of my drinking its often a surprise
Yup
Not sure he could in the Tampa 2 but definitely in our old D and a 3-4 for sure…. i still think him and sintim can be great DEs rushing the passer, when needed, specially if we have LBs that can fly to the ball and make tackles… too bad we dont…
All's Well that Fewell
Ed, let the record show that I did not bring this up....LOL
by giant fan since 57 on Jan 21, 2010 4:44 AM EST up reply actions
I know
And I’m actually kind of annoyed that it came up. Since I specifically asked that we not go there in this discussion.
by Ed Valentine on Jan 21, 2010 8:05 AM EST up reply actions
you see,
all we’ve gotta do is move….
You play to win the game!
by Simms-McConkey on Jan 21, 2010 8:56 AM EST up reply actions
Trade Scenario
Ok, many will just scoff, but tell me if you would or wouldn’t
OSI, our #1 this year AND our #1 next year for Suh…….
I am telling you, I have watched a bunch of Suh, he does NOT look like too many of the DT’s I have seen in recent years. He might be one of THE best DT prospects in 20yrs easy. Dan Wilkinson is the only player that I saw have the impact he had, and yeah, he turned out to be an average DT, but Suh is a different player with more agility to go WITH the strength.
Honestly, I would do it. I think you get that big an impact guy on the inside, and push stuff outside to our ends and the D will come together alot faster. We have a core group now to go for a title, I would rather be aggressive and take our shot. Hey, if you want to whine about giving up first round picks I offer the following:
1) Habitually, how have our #1 picks turned out?
2) When we made a similar move for Eli, did it work out?
3) If you make this move, our pick next year is late in the first round, big deal.
Think about it.
?
2009 – Hakeem Nicks
2008 – Kenny Phiilips
2007- Aaron Ross
2006- Kiwi
2005- traded for Eli (could’ve used someone like Merriman..or maybe trade up a spot for DEMARCUS WARE!)
2004-Rivers = Eli
2003 William Joseph
2002 Shockey
2001 Dayne
…soo!!!!!!
Aside from Dayne and Joseph..pretty COT DAMN GOOD.
…And of course, lately its been JR, even Kiwi was mostly a JR move
Giants are in no position to do this.
It gets late real early out here....
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 20, 2010 9:38 PM EST up reply actions
glad you posted Joseph
as a reminder of what a bust a 1st round DT could be. in a handfull of years you’ll either be paying him with a 6 year contract, or he’s out to FA to get signed by the Redskins.
and as for 2) & 3)
Suh’s not a franchise QB…you don’t go out of your bunghole to go and acquire anything else..especially a DT
How many times has a top 2 DT panned out?
You ready to give a DT Haynesworth guarantee’s?
and 3) Picking at the end of the first round has been a success..so yea, its a big deal.
It gets late real early out here....
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 20, 2010 9:46 PM EST up reply actions
Nuh Uh
No one thought hakeem nicks would be great but he got drafted 29th.
No one thought Kenny Phillips would be as valuable as he is but he got drafted 31st.
And Kiwanuka was drafted last in the 1st round.
We have a chance of getting even better talent, Suh is no guarantee. Stop living in fantasy land please.
I really believe...
that you all do not fully understand the Monster that is Ndamukong Suh! This guy played as the QB of the defense! I am from Nebraska and I have watched this dude since he was a freshman. One of his biggest assets is his agility. A 300 lb guy should not be as agile as this guy. Moreover, he has 4 career INTs, as a DT!!! One of which he ran back for a TD. The Huskers also liked to use him as a Fridge type guy, putting him in at fullback and he even caught a TD pass! He would be the focal piece of our defense for the next 10 years! Eli on one side of the ball and Suh on the other. He is the best player in the draft and plays a position we desperately need. I fully know the consequences of getting him, but trust me, Suh is worth it. Anyone who has actually watched this guy play would agree.
We all know JR will never even think of making that kind of a trade
so theres no use in even talking about suh
by mclaren_is_the_best on Jan 21, 2010 9:27 AM EST up reply actions
no..
he’s not worth it.
He’s only one player. If he turns out to meet his potential..great. Yet even one DT is not all it takes to put them over the top..even one with Suh’s potential.
Yet…if he doesn’t reach his potential…if could set the Giants back for 5-6 years. They’re going to need to rebuild the OL soon, starting this season.
It gets late real early out here....
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 21, 2010 9:46 AM EST up reply actions
Comparing Suh to other DT's is a mistake....
Suh is not William Joseph or any other DT…..
He is probably the best DT prospect in forever. For those of you spitting out “there have been alot of DT busts” as such I asked – have you actually gone back and watched Suh play other than commenting on what you see on ESPN. I think you would be making a mistake.
It is always possible that Suh could come in, play one snap and blow out his achilles. That is a risk with anyone. But to trivialize him as though he is just like any normal other DT prospect in the first round would be a mistake. Suh is going to make an immediate impact.
Suh sounds too much like Steve Emtman...
dominante, Heisman candidate DT.
Let Suh make an impact for the Rams. He’s irrelevant to the Giants.
It gets late real early out here....
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 21, 2010 10:01 AM EST up reply actions
too many holes 2 fill to cash chips in for Suh
its not like were only a DT away from greatness. unless suh is multiple man and can clone himself as a MIKE, and a safety, then our best bet is to pass on dude. Especially in what is possibly an uncapped year and a dried out FA pool. no way, i’m with FBrad on this.
Back in 1972
there was another great Nebraska defensive lineman….Rich Glover. He got the same kind of attention that Suh has, came in third for the Heisman Trophy and was drafted by the Giants. He played one year for the G-Men and then went to the minor leagues. Philadelphia gave him another chance in 1974 but it didn’t pan out.
Point being that there is no such thing as a sure thing.
by giant fan since 57 on Jan 21, 2010 6:03 PM EST up reply actions
Phillips
Honestly, I have laugh at the insituation that Kenny Phillips is some great #1 pick…
To be frank, his play was completely underwhelming until he got hurt. I guess since he had his best game as his last game, and that burned some kind of impression in alot of peoples mind. But to me, his play was average at best and not only did he continuously blow critical tackles, but he was not shown to be any kind of big hitter or ball hawk.
Yeah, compare him to CC Brown and Rouse and he looks all-pro. But I would say overall he did not play up to first round expectations.
Can't really say that...
in his rookie year…he was the Giants best rook. That’s what a 1st rounder should be doing no? Prove why he was the team’s first selection in their picks?
Phillips had a better rook season then TT.
He got hurt in his 2nd year….don’t expect that…but give what he’s done..he’s shown promise.
He was a rookie last year. If you expect him to come in and be perfect and not make rookie mistakes….you need to fix your expectaions.
It gets late real early out here....
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 21, 2010 10:00 AM EST up reply actions
Sure I can...
Even in the Dallas game, where he made a bunch of plays. Go back and see how many tackles he missed.
I can vividly remember texts FLYING during the games with my buddies livid about Phillips inability to tackle in critical spots and taking poor angles.
You can be enamored with him if you want, I think he was overrated. He had one good hit in his tenure in the Eagle game, where they thru a BS flag on him. Otherwise, throw the Dallas game out and you never really knew he was playing.
yes...
its impossible, implausible and absolutely unheard of for a 2nd year player to get better over the course of the season (**cough….Terrel Thomas)
So you’re saying he’s a bust?
That a pick like KP should be a reason to trade away next year’s first rounder (and 3-4 picks this year?)
…good thing this has no chance of happening….
It gets late real early out here....
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 21, 2010 10:08 AM EST up reply actions
KP missing many tackles is wildly untrue
i personally can remember from my own memory that the one thing i noticed about KP his rook year is the fact that every time i saw 21 in the picture, he wrapped up and never let go of the man with the ball. off the top of my head i can count on 1 hand how many he’s missed.
i decided instead of just going off memory to give raw stats to back up what i already knew. so here they are courtesy of PFF: http://profootballfocus.com/by_player.php?tab=by_player&season=2008&surn=P&playerid=4345&group=6
that’s for 2008. in that whole season he missed all of 3 tackles. he is credited for none in his brief 2 game appearance this year.
are we all maybe jumping a little ahead with KP? yes i think so. i think he has the talent to be great, but i’m not about to crown him the next atwater/ed reed/polamalu off a great rookie season and two very good starts. however, it is a falsehood that KP can’t tackle, because that is what he’s excelled at so far.
Playmaking Safety or LB
That is all we need. We need a Safety or someone in our secondary to get atleast 6 interceptions and a LB who could get 100 tackles easily
CJ spiller
I think if CJ spiller still on the table we have to take him. He will be a beast something like Reggie Bush in his game against the Cardinals. And then we could take a LB in the second round
1st and 2nd Round Picks
Brandon Spikes and Sean Lee.
Sean Lee can player all 3 LB positions.
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