New York Giants position breakdowns: Defensive tackle
by Ed Valentine on Jan 19, 2010 7:00 AM EST
in News
144 comments
In our series of New York Giants position-by-position breakdowns, we have arrived at the really critical stuff. It is time to begin breaking down the team's disappointing defense.
We are going to start with the defensive tackle position. We know all about the horrid safety play in 2009, and we will get to that eventually. It is my belief, though, that if the Giants are going to return to being a top-flight defense in 2010 they must first and foremost be able to play the run effectively.
If you recall Tom Coughlin's press conference the day after the season ended, the Giants head coach agrees with that assessment.
"We have lost our identity in terms of who we are. We are a football team that has always prided itself on the physical aspect of the game, which is running the ball and stopping the run. ... we are having difficulty running it, we are having difficulty stopping the run."
Let's toss out a few of the disturbing numbers to illustrate Coughlin's point, and to really reinforce what we already know.
Using Football Outsiders Defensive Efficiency Ratings, we see that the Giants were ranked 21st in the league against the run.
Contrast that with the Giants four-year playoff run.
- 2005 -- 8th; 2006 -- 11th; 2007 -- 9th; 2008 -- 12th
I also have to turn to Pro Football Focus for a little more data. In 2007, PFF had the Giants at a cumulative +13.0 against the run. In 2008, an amazing +46.0 In 2009? Try, a -12.7. Yep, -12.7. an astounding drop of nearly 59 points in trying to defend the run.
So, what the heck happened? Age, injuries, bad personnel decisions and some poor work by defensive coordinator Bill Sheridan all happened.
It is my belief that solid run defense starts with stout, physical defensive tackle play. And it is painfully obvious the Giants did not have that in 2009.
So, with all of that as a very long preamble, let's look at the Giants defensive tackles individually and see what needs to be done to give new coordinator Perry Fewell an effective group in 2010.
Fred Robbins -- A 10-year veteran, Robbins has been a Giant since 2004. During that time, he has been a terrific player. An excellent run defender, and a force rushing the passer from the inside as well. From 2006-2008 Robbins had 5.5 sacks in each of those seasons. Sadly, micro-fracture knee surgery and age are catching up to him. He will be 33 next season and is just a shell of what he used to be. He posted just two sacks in 2009, and had just 25 tackles -- easily the fewest of his career since becoming a starter with Minnesota in 2001.
In 2009, PFF graded Robbins -6.2 against the run, which is completely unacceptable, and -4.1 overall. In 2008, Robbins was +5.9 against the run.
Robbins contract has expired and it is time for the Giants to replace him with a younger, more athletic player.
Barry Cofield -- The best of the defensive tackles on the current roster. Unfortunately, that isn't saying a whole lot. Cofield is an average run defender, graded at -0.5 by PFF for 2009. He had 35 tackles this season, and his 23 unassisted stops were the fewest of his career. He doesn't get much push as a pass rusher, either, and has just 6.5 sacks in four seasons.
Also unfortunately for the Giants Cofield's contract is up and he is a player they pretty much have to try and keep. New CBA or not, they simply have too many other question marks at the position. And that means they are probably going to have to overpay him. Unless they want to completely blow up the position and start over.
Chris Canty -- A huge disappointment in the first year of his six-year, $42 million free-agent contract. The Giants paid all that money for 13 tackles (8 solos) and a half-sack. I am not ready to give up on Canty just yet. He was hurt quite a bit, and was transitioning from 3-4 end to 4-3 tackle. He came from Dallas, though, with a reputation as a guy who looked great in the uniform and showed a lot of athleticism but never really performed on game day. Cowboys fans told us the Giants had overpaid, and so far it looks like they were right. I think he probably gets another season to prove that Jerry Reese did not waste money on him. But, the Giants need to see him as part of a rotation and not as a dominant guy.
Rocky Bernard -- Another guy Reese brought in as a free agent hoping to bolster the run defense. Another huge disappointment. Bernard was a good player for seven seasons in Seattle, and had a 55-tackle, four-sack season in 2008. That earned him a nice, fat free-agent deal with the Giants. His 2009 disappearance, though, has probably earned him nothing but a ticket out of town.
Bernard had just 22 tackles, one sack and an overall rating from PFF of -4.7. Bye, bye Rocky. Go take someone else's money.
Jay Alford -- There is no denying the loss of Alford to a knee injury. He was outstanding in training camp and the first part of the exhibition season, and looked ready for a breakout season. If you are looking Alford to be a dominant player in 2010, though, I think you had better lower your expectations.
He has never been more than a role player, and he is coming off a knee injury. We saw with Osi Umenyiora that players do not always come back at full strength in their first season following knee surgery. So, Alford could be a useful part of a defensive tackle rotation. I would not look at him as a savior, however, at the position.
Conclusion -- If you really want to, you could argue that not one of the guys who played this season really performed well enough to earn a spot on the Giants roster in 2010. There has simply got to be some change in personnel here, whether that be via the draft, dipping back into the free-agent pool and trying again, or both. I am not going to say the Giants 'must' take a defensive tackle with their No. 1 pick. I will say it would be deeply disappointing if a defensive tackle is not chosen in the first three rounds.
Keep: Cofield, Canty, Alford
Dump: Robbins, Bernard
Draft/Free Agency Priority (1 being the highest, 5 the lowest): 1
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Just as long as they don't take William Joseph 2.0
I’ll be happy. I think DT is a position they can probably address a little later in the draft. Too bad this isn’t like baseball so Ndamukong Suh’s high contract demands could cause him to fall past the “small market” teams right into the Giants laps. That would be incredible.
2009 Did Not Happen
Agreed on Joseph 2.0
I think the Giants best draft strategy is to identify four to five defensive players they feel could be available at 15, rank them on their own draft board and take the highest ranked one available to them — regardless of position.
As much as I know there is a huge need at DT that position is reportedly very deep in the draft. They could get a good one even if they go elsewhere in the first round.
by Ed Valentine on Jan 19, 2010 7:40 AM EST up reply actions
Although in a year with a deep draft ...
I would be more than happy if they feel the best available at #15 isn’t a good enough value and trade down.
I don’t know if you can go as far as getting two # 2’s if you trade out of that slot, but we seem to do well in Round 2 (Moss didn’t happen …), seemingly better than Round 1.
They said we could be starting all over
I wouldnt be against not overpaying cofield and picking up a mid-late rounder as well as a top level talent if we could grab an extra draft pick or two
How deep were you thinking?
Before the Jr.‘s had all declared, or now? The deadline has passed and 53 Jr.’s have declared. I recognized quite a few names that i’ve seen mentioned aound here, so i think these guys will have an impact now on who may be available.
depth
I would say IMO – just looking at the scouting reviews…that we can pick up a quality DT well into the 5th round, possibly 6th… however, it’s all relative to what the Giants feel is quality DT prospectives to bring into camp and their plans for those candidate(s) to be integrated into the DT rotation.
Opus smart , lascivio magis , intereo gauisus...
Lamar Houston
DT Texas.
Boom…3rd rounder.
It gets late real early out here....
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 19, 2010 9:21 PM EST up reply actions
he's on my best available for DT list
and I would not mind getting him, but I’ve seen a couple mocks that got him going before our pick…so I listed other DT’s worthy if we don’t get any in the first 2 rounds…
1. B Price, D Wiliams
2. Jared Odrick, Allen Bailey
3. Lamaar Houston, Boo Robinson
4. Cory Peters, D’Anthony Smith
5 and later. Nate Collins, Ricardo Mathews,
Opus smart , lascivio magis , intereo gauisus...
With no salary cap, "this" will actually be
a lot like baseball. In fact, it could be worse. There may be a feeding (spending) frenzy this offseason as the big money spenders try and rake in the free agents. “This” will have some kind of effect on the draft and the players available may be a bit different than what we think going in . It is almost unpredictable as to how this all will turn out. It will definitely be interesting. Question is will Reese play his cards smartly both in the draft and with free agents. We’ll see.
Doubt it
the free agent market will be almost empty. You would need 6 years of experience to become a free agent. Teams get 2 franchise tags and a transition tag. Don’t forget that an NFL players prime years are exactly between 23-28ish so you would almost never get a super star from free agency.
by mclaren_is_the_best on Jan 19, 2010 12:08 PM EST up reply actions
Now we get to the good stuff ...
I have to say, there is almost nothing to quibble with here, Ed. Spot on.
For the last 30 years, it seemed the one thing we could count on was the Giants D stopping the run. Not in 2009, and it just killed us.
Sad that Robbins is done, but he is.
What on Earth JR saw in Bernard I will never know.
Cofield is our best performer lately, but not a great answer.
Dallas fans were right, we overpaid for Canty (and they should know – Roy Wiliams), and we can only hope it was injuries or adjustment to new scheme or this will hurt us for years if there is a cap.
Alford can’t be counted on for much in 2010 due to the knee. There are psychological issues with coming back from an ACL (Brady still can’t plant firmly), and DT’s have to put enormous physical stress on their joints.
I’m hoping that Coffield, Canty and Alford can be a core, and mixing in Tuck inside on passing downs will help the rotation.
Can’t see taking a DT at # 15, as you tend to need top 5 or 10 pick to find a dominant DT that can contribute year 1. I do think we can get an impact starter at LB or S at #15 potentially.
Bernard
If you look at the guy’s numbers he had probably the best season of his career in Seattle in 2008. I’m sure that’s what JR saw. He just didn’t bring it to New York, and you have to wonder if he is another guy who played with one of those ‘undisclosed’ injuries. Regardless, he has to go.
by Ed Valentine on Jan 19, 2010 7:41 AM EST up reply actions
Although, I would imagine ...
that both Canty and Bernard will be in camp, as it costs the Giants nothing additional to cut them right before the season opener if they don’t like what they see in August, right ?
Bernard
Why would you wait that long to cut ties with him? There is a limited roster, and if they think they can do better I would think they would release him long before camp starts.
by Ed Valentine on Jan 19, 2010 8:11 AM EST up reply actions
Canty...
I guess one of the big things affecting Canty will be the CBA – based on his performance this season what chance is there that the Giants go with the financial move and just cut the guy if there is no cap and hence no ramifications on this…personally I hope they don’t just consider the finances and fully assess the guy and what they have with him and with the ownership structure that they have in place I’m sure they will – will be very interesting to see what happens though if/when they do pick up some new pieces in FA/Draft…
Given the guy’s size and athleticism it would be great to see him come back and dominate and be a force and am ready to give him a pass on this season based on his injuries, but if he does come back and busts again next season then as Shofner says the cap impact in the following years could haunt us…
And such a shame that Robbins, almost literally, fell apart over this season as he has been such a good player over the years but it is time for some new blood and fingers crossed that Alford can come back and at least play some role in the new D…
Commitment
I’d like nothing more to see him come back and play well but I have to really question his commitment. Being down almost the whole year on a hamstring? Same with Ross. It really pissed me off to see something like that.
I believe Canty's injury was to his calf
one of the most important muscles for defensive lineman
I agree about Ross though…..I think he just doesn’t want to play for this team
by mclaren_is_the_best on Jan 19, 2010 12:17 PM EST up reply actions
I can't agree on Ross
Ask anyone that has had a hamstring injury or just look around the NFL during the year a hamstring can be 1 game or 15 and part of that depends on how much cortizone the player wants to shoot into their leg.
Canty was a calf then a hammy in my opinion if we are upset about the hamstring injuries on this team take a look at the training staff. Every year we are hit with about a half dozen hamstrings in preseason.
Maningham missed his whole rookie season due to a hammy.
It happens to Ross more than most
because his girlfriend’s a sprinter, and he trains like a sprinter. Those guys have hammy problems all the time. One of the things the Giants need is much better conditioning. Not that they’re out of shape, but I think a lot of their training habits are bad ones.
I left my swagger in my other pants.
1st Round DT
Your assesment reinforces my belief that we need a DT in the first round. I really think we need a stud who we can can groom and hopefully can be a force on the D-line for years to come. I have very little faith in any of those guys we have coming back. Also, knowing that Fewell is basically a genius when it comes to DB’s, it means we can afford to draft a quality safety in the 2nd round that Fewell can turn into a stud along with KP (praying KP will be able to return at a high level).
Awaiting the draft :/
by I_Formation27 on Jan 19, 2010 7:38 AM EST via mobile reply actions
2010
That’s the thing. There are scenarios where each of these guys, except Alford, is not a Giant in 2010. So, fresh blood is needed badly here.
by Ed Valentine on Jan 19, 2010 7:42 AM EST up reply actions
Definitely need a DT at some point.
1st round? Not sure is that high a need. Canty and Cofield as the starters and Alford is like bringing in another FA or pick.
If those guys are healthy that’s 3 solid DT’s. Of course…if they are there. I’m assuming they are tho.
Guys like Suh and McCoy are unrealistic. Brian Price probably shoots up the boards and right out of the Giants reach (and not worth trading up for). Dan Williams…maybe a decent idea..but for what he does, there’s other DT’s in the 2nd and 3rd rounds.
Arthur Jones and Jared Odrick may be more realistic candidates, especially as 2nd rounders. Both would be a reach at #15, but in the 2nd more likely.
I do think they keep Canty and re-up Cofield tho. Its a shame they didn’t get a DT in last year’s draft and also Rocky Bernard being a pile of crap
How come China can't vote David Lee for All-Star?
And that picture above ...
is about as close as Bernard came to being “in on a tackle”, or so it seemed.
against Washington they all played like Tom Brady was back there
and Strahan was shouting “17-14!!!”
How come China can't vote David Lee for All-Star?
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 19, 2010 7:56 AM EST up reply actions
DT
I think at our pick I want to see us move up or down to get the right person either at DT or LB. If we see a real playmaker then move up 2-3 rounds or drop back if you know you can get him there. To me, it’s grab the best DT or LB in that draft pick around 15.
I would LOVE having Arthur Jones
As a ‘Cuse fan, double the joy. He’s undersized, but the man is all heart.
Homer: Aw, twenty dollars! I wanted a peanut!
Homer's Brain: Twenty dollars can buy many peanuts!
Homer: Explain how!
Homer's Brain: Money can be exchanged for goods and services!
Homer: Woo-hoo!
by bigbluethruandthru on Jan 21, 2010 9:40 PM EST up reply actions
So we paid Canty about $500,000 per tackle
another great edition… changed my mind about the need for DT help.
You play to win the game!
Looking back...
maybe they should’ve sprung for Haynesworth?
He probably is a money first guy…so I don;t think they were getting into a bidding war with Danny boy….
How come China can't vote David Lee for All-Star?
Haynesworth
I still think the Giants made the right choice by passing on the guy. Great talent, but troubled still. Look at how much popping off he did this season in Washington. And I still like the idea of getting 2-3 good players with the money you would have spent on one. Of course, it did not work out for the Giants in 2009, but I like the philosophy.
To me, the NFL is about depth more than it is about 1-2 players. But, it is a good argument.
by Ed Valentine on Jan 19, 2010 8:14 AM EST up reply actions
Haynesworth
I know we can only speculate now but would have been fun to see what a Haynesworth, or someone of that impact, could have done for our DL to cover up our holes in the secondary…I guess at least now we know how bad CC, etc were and so we know we need to address that position in a big way…
but
just THINK about what that would have done to the 3-4 conversation around here!!!
You play to win the game!
by Simms-McConkey on Jan 19, 2010 9:22 AM EST up reply actions
made it a lot easier?
How come China can't vote David Lee for All-Star?
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 19, 2010 12:12 PM EST up reply actions
As much as I've been an advocate of the 3-4 I wouldn't trade
for Haynesworth. He is not a team player in my opinion.
by giant fan since 57 on Jan 19, 2010 6:01 PM EST up reply actions
Also
Haynesworth kinda dogged it during games. he sat for numerous plays during both our meetings, and even Skins fans kind of poke fun at him for playing only 75% of the time. imagine how we would be taking that, especially watching the mess our D became.
But how do you convince him ...
that every year is a “contract year”. Seems to be an effort/conditioning thing with him.
yea..
it was just a dream I guess.
I doubt the 2008 Haynesworth show up again.
Or…Maybe they cut him?
I can see team’s doing this if there’s no CBA
How come China can't vote David Lee for All-Star?
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 19, 2010 8:28 AM EST up reply actions
That is simple
Franchise him every year and tell him how he plays determines how much he gets next year lol.
by mypisceannature on Jan 20, 2010 12:57 AM EST up reply actions
Agreed
I would love McClain guy is a beast.. We wouldn’t even need a DT with him stopping the run!!! Ok that was a little much but the guy is for real..
All's Well that Fewell
Me too
But now I’m worried he isn’t making it to 15, especially if he clocks in well at the combine. I don’t think we can afford to spend our #2 to move up and I don’t know how many picks the #3 would let us jump, probably not more than 1 or 2
McClain is not making it to 15.
He could go #3 to the Bucs. The Chiefs, Raiders, Broncos or Dolphins…all are likely.
And of course…trading up to get him is a horrible idea.
Q: How to the NY Giants get Jahvid Best on the team?
A: ?
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 19, 2010 12:24 PM EST up reply actions
So, let us all assume McClain is gone?
Now who should be on our radar, w/o trading up? Thomas, Price, D. williams or someone else? I had just seen a mock with us taking OLB Navorro Bowman (a Jr.) from Penn St. I know it’s a mock, but i haven’t heard anything about him.
after mcclain
earl thomas and brian price are the next best players for us to take
by mclaren_is_the_best on Jan 19, 2010 2:00 PM EST up reply actions
CJ Spiller
You heard Coughlin, our run game was TERRIBLE… I am still holding out hope for McClain..
All's Well that Fewell
Bowman's nice
I’m not sure how Fewell’s D is gonna run..but guys like Boley are the ideal kind of LB.
Bowman’s a speedy smallish type (6"2 235lbs) LB, but he’s probably the complete opposite of Boley when it comes to toughness…..
I’d have no problem with Bowman, tho it may be likely he’s there in round 2 (going by some mocks). He’d be an absolute steal there…
1st round?
Earl Thomas and Brian Price..probably Dan Williams…like you say.
I would not count out CJ Spiller.
And of course…if we’re counting in CJ Spiller…might as well count in Jahvid Best.
…I like players who are faster then Desean Jackson…do you?
Q: How to the NY Giants get Jahvid Best on the team?
A: ?
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 19, 2010 3:24 PM EST up reply actions
CJ Spiller was hurt a lot at Clemson
He seems a little too fragile for the NFL to me. Since I live near Clemson I saw a lot of his performances and he has a great attitude, is a great kickoff and punt returner and catches passes well out of the backfield but durability might be an issue.
by giant fan since 57 on Jan 19, 2010 6:06 PM EST up reply actions
Durability
If this is true, not jsut banged up tho, actually chunks of game time missed then we can’t gamble.. I didn’t see that he missed much time this year at all tho… he does tend to disappear in games too
All's Well that Fewell
Best
Good point… Never really thought of him as a Giants RB but would love to have him aboard… Dare i say trade Osi and Jacobs for draft picks?? They’re both pretty cheap and have had great success… I don’t want to get rid of them but if it helps us more then hurts I am in..
All's Well that Fewell
More I think of it...
Bowman’s an excellent pick.
Tough and fast…very much Derrick Brooks potential (if we’re going with the Tampa 2 ideals…)
Q: How to the NY Giants get Jahvid Best on the team?
A: ?
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 19, 2010 3:25 PM EST up reply actions
Thats what i'm going for
Comparing the T2 days under Kiffen when it was rolling with the Bucs, they all flowed to the ball with a certain easeness. Not very big guys, but athletic with speed! With us, we need speed with athleticism at the very least, (per position) at every level. DT, LB and S!
Some names get floated around and your left wondering why, but it makes sense in the grand scheme of things!
Looking at the RB's who are like Spiller and Best...
Joe McKnight’s an interesting one. Dunno where his stock is at…but I think its plausible he’s there in round 5.
Big time fumbling issues…but that’s correctible.
There’s a few others in this mold too.
That could leave rounds 1-4 for S, LB, DT and OL.
Fight now I’m looking at…
1)Earl Thomas S
2) Bowman LB
3) Ciron Black RT(damn I hope so…perfect RT…)
4) Lamarr Houston DT (not big but powerful)
5) McKnight
It gets late real early out here....
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 19, 2010 9:28 PM EST up reply actions
DT
There really isn’t many DT free agents worth a damn, Drafting on in the first might be our best shot and too be honest its looking more and more like we need 2 in this draft, along with a Saftey and LB(s)… Damn our D fell apart in no time flat..
All's Well that Fewell
There's gotta be a FA or 2 out there.
Not a Canty…a 3-4 DE who’s converting. Or Bernard…who had a decent 2008, but like Osi Umenyiora, really hasn’t been great since 2005…
There’s gotta be a solid DT or 2 out there. Fred Robbins was OK in Minnesota..but he came to the Giants and was excellent all these years.
To be honest, I wouldn’t be surprised if Bernard is kept on board. Slim chance…and I want him gone too..but maybe there really was more to Wauffle getting fired, maybe he didn’t get through to these guys?
I think there’s gonna be plenty of cuts to make up for the lack of UFA’s vs RFA’s.
There will be players out there.
How come China can't vote David Lee for All-Star?
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 19, 2010 8:36 AM EST up reply actions
Franklin on SF
will be a FA CBA or no CBA .. .really good run stufer but will be 30 so who knows if the Giants will want to give him a long term deal . . . outside of him it’s slim pickens but maybe they can sign a guy like Kendrick Clancey for a one year stop gap or a lower level guy that can develop like Freddie R did. We’ll see
by Landeta on Jan 19, 2010 11:35 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
I dont know
But this list is slim and if they get cut they might just not be that good, it’s different when teams cant afford to sign them or keep 2 but on this list the good ones will be re-singed or franchised… Here is the list, i hope your right because nothing jumps out at me
Vince Wilfork, New England Patriots (28)
Richard Seymour, Oakland Raiders (30)
Aubrayo Franklin, San Francisco 49ers (30)
Casey Hampton, Pittsburgh Steelers (32)
Ryan Pickett, Green Bay Packers (30)
Tony Brown, Tennessee Titans (29)
Kendrick Clancy, New Orleans Saints (32)
Barry Cofield, New York Giants (26)
Jason Ferguson, Miami Dolphins (35)
Kedric Golston, Washington Redskins (27)
Tank Johnson, Cincinnati Bengals (28)
Travis Johnson, San Diego Chargers (28)
Fred Robbins, New York Giants (33)
Clifton Ryan, St. Louis Rams (26)
Tank Tyler, Carolina Panthers (25) – Restricted FA
All's Well that Fewell
Tony Brown
Kendrick Golston.
Clifton Ryan.
Under the radar types….not gonna jump out, but not bad to throw in there. They have talent and would be willing to prove themselves.
Don’t count out Seymour.
Q: How to the NY Giants get Jahvid Best on the team?
A: ?
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 19, 2010 3:26 PM EST up reply actions
BTW
Chris Snee and Corey Webster are free agents.. WTF!! Thank god both of their play kind of dropped this year(injuries didn’t help them) Maybe we can get that discount…
All's Well that Fewell
I think you're looking at an outdated list
there is absolutely no way that snee and webster are free agents
by mclaren_is_the_best on Jan 19, 2010 2:52 PM EST up reply actions
Snee and Webster not free agents
Both are signed until 2014 or 2015
Mickey C
Go Big Red!
As a Nebraskan Giant fan, I am living the pipe dream of thinking that we can make a deal with the Rams to get that #1 pick in order to bring in Suh. I know, I know, not a chance. But, I have been saying it for 3 weeks now, Suh would make our line dominant again. Since I know this is not going to happen, then I will agree with a few of you who think that McClain would be the best first round choice. No doubt we need a dominant DT or MLB first and foremost this draft. Suh and McClain are not going to fall to us at 15. So, we are either going to have to trade up or find better. How deep is this draft going to be in terms of LBs and DTs? I heard good things about this Spikes (LB from Florida), would he be worth the #15th pick? I did see a bit of the bowl game against Cincy, but did not see him do anything. I think we could get a decent safety in the 2nd or 3rd round, so concentrate on DT and LB in the first two rounds.
I asked about Spikes
And some of the people seemed to suggest he’s good, but slow and while he might be a successful NFL pro, won’t be the star you want with the #15 pick. Not having watched much college ball, I don’t know myself.
Spikes
I think he’s the prototypical “great college player w/questionable athleticism who slips to the second round and then becomes a very valuable player” – Maualuga was that guy last year, and it seems like there’s a few of them every single year.
2009 Did Not Happen
That would be great...
…but I wouldn’t cry if we take him in the first. I’d jump for joy in the second. But I could deal with taking him in the first. He’s a smart, quicker-than-he-times, hardnosed LB.
I left my swagger in my other pants.
2nd
I def see us getting Spikes in the 2nd hopefully after we get a DT or CJ Spiller… Depends on what Spikes can run that 40 at… And yes Maualuga was an amazing 2nd rd steal, would love spikes to be ours… That is if we can’t get McClain, maybe trade down and pick up another 2nd rd pick.. dreams…
All's Well that Fewell
If Spikes runs a fast 40...
he still should be avoided.
However he managed to get a fast 40..should be outweighed by the fact he doesn’t play fast.
Q: How to the NY Giants get Jahvid Best on the team?
A: ?
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 19, 2010 3:27 PM EST up reply actions
He plays plenty fast.
Spikes is in the backfield, gouging the opposing RB’s eyes before you can blink yours. I don’t know why you keep saying that.
I left my swagger in my other pants.
Spikes
had a bad year…that’s why people are saying not great things about him, the previous year was a lot better year statistically for him..maybe he should have gone out that year…but that doesn’t mean he can’t do a great job and go back to what he did the year before… but what that does is slip his overall draft value this year to be a POTENTIALLY 2nd round steal…
but 50/50 either way – as with most of the draft picks, with few exceptions
Opus smart , lascivio magis , intereo gauisus...
I don't care about his stats...
he didn’t have so much a bad year, as get his bare ass exposed.
For real…they need to stay away fro a guy like this.
Guys like Navarro Bowman, Darryl Washington…even if they wanna wait, Renny Curran.
Quick fast and good tacklers.
He’s just too big.
It gets late real early out here....
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 19, 2010 9:33 PM EST up reply actions
all good, but I don't have Spikes on
my draft list anyway…but being exposed of your weakness will always happen, it depends on his character make up and whether he’s able to get better… and seeing that he is a competitor, he has the physical tools – he just needs to learn to reduce his weaknesses…
moot point anyway, I would pass on him b/c I wasn’t too impressed with any of his play
Opus smart , lascivio magis , intereo gauisus...
If the Giant went to the 3-4!!!
then…Spikes in round 1 even, would be a great idea. As a ILB..he probably could be ideal.
But…I think that’s dead?
It gets late real early out here....
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 19, 2010 10:08 PM EST up reply actions
Spikes
Has a MLB I could deal with him, I think he is a clone of Pierce for sure, have a great 3 year run then will be chasing running backs from 25yds back… I still think he could play MLB and be successful his rookie year.. time will tell… Rather have Dunlop if we are taking Gators, or even Hayden hes great… I watched every Gator game being down here in Florida and Spikes was always the emotional leader for that D… BTW Tebow could play LB lol
All's Well that Fewell
I agree our focus should be on mlb and dt, if philips comes back then ss should be fine. Fs, cb, dt, mlb should be our biggest concerns. Fs and dt can be taken care of later in the draft but a player like mclain is rare, he really impresses me with his preperation. Cb is also a priority, just look at what revis has done for the jets.
CHUUUUUUUUUUUUUCH
by IB on Jan 19, 2010 8:47 AM EST up reply actions
DT in the top 5
how many DT’s in the Top 5 really pan out. I probably should’ve checked before I sent this but I just don’t remember too many that had a big impact.
I agree that DT is a priority, but suh is the best DT and he’s going to be gone way before we pick I think the giants trade up to draft mclain, I think he’s a patrick willis type. Honestly, who wouldn’t want patrick willis right now.
CHUUUUUUUUUUUUUCH
Whether it be...
Suh or McClain, we would have trade up. What would it take to do that? I don’t want to give away the entire draft, given our needs over the entire defense. But, a McClain or Suh can provide immediate impact. If memory serves correctly, did Mario Williams have a solid season after being the #1 pick as a DE? If we don’t trade up, and these guys don’t fall, then it comes down to best available. Whether it be DT, LB, CB, S. Don’t forget, our O-Line could use some depth and players to groom as well. I hope Reese is up for this, as I am starting to go crossed eye thinking about the mess that is our D right now.
Pipe dream
JR, mark my words, will NOT trade up from the 15th spot in round 1. If anything, he will trade down or take the best available player at the current spot.
As a Giants fan, you should know better. Willie Joe was a must have and see where that got us. Reese was on the staff back then and this was not lost on him.
In fact, if there isn’t a top 10 pick still available at 15, I’ll bet on them trading down from that spot to get more depth. You have to remember that if there is no CBA in place by draft time then there will be no draft in 2011 due to a lock out, so we will want more quantity to go along with quality.
Bleeding Blue since 1962
"Age, injuries, personnel, and coaching...."
But no mention of the most important factor: the players that we have on the field not stepping up and making plays.
So long Big Fred
A dominant force in the middle for us…your impact will be missed with us. it was always fun watching the big fella take the imaginary fade away shot as i screamed “BALLIN!” at home.
i never was to excited about Rocky, he never did anything to stand outish in Seattle worth coming in here and making a splash. I didn’t mind it tho, since i though originally he’d be a cog in the system, backing up canty, fred and barry with alford. anyway, see ya rocky.
Canty, has all the physical traits to do it. please God, let’s pray that Cowgirl fans aren’t right….about anything…..ever…..
Devils Advocate
I will be the first to agree the DT play was horrible last year and could stand some fresh blood
But
Is just a coincedence the whole line play fell off or does it have more to do with the complete disaster of the Bill Sheridan year (thankfully it was only one)
Not one part of the D played well last year, we had many injuries but thats the NFL deal with it. That is the time for younger players to step up and fill the spots. Are they that bad or did the coaching staff fail by not preparing them better
Fast forward to the middle of last season when AP went down
AP’s play has been slipping but without him being able to decode the plays from Sheridan
(which i believe were in the Klingon language) the defense got worse without the only guy that seemed able to make the needed adjustments
I cant get over how everybody on the line had the worst year of their career at the same time.
Hopefully Fewell is just what the doctor ordered and he can restore the Defense to what it was just 2 short years ago
You can see a lot just by observing-Yogi Berra
Tuck
I think it goes even further due to the injury to Tuck.
I think when he was hurt they no longer needed to double team anyone and it allowed that fifth OL to pick up the blitz.
Once again – we have to have someone on the DL that is superior enough to garner a double team to ensure we have some 1 on 1’s or force the team to keep someone in to help block.
It all rolls downhill guys. If we have someone that can force a double team then it forces a 1 on 1 blocking or forces them to keep a back in to block thus allows us to double their strongest WR.
In the past that was Strahan and it allowed Osi to have 1 on 1 as well as Tuck. I’m just not sure we’re going to get that at the 15th pick but then again isn’t that where we got Strahan or a little higher :)
In Reese We Trust
(Besides every FA we picked up last year) When it comes to the draft, I think he will take the best DEFENSIVE player available at 15. The first and second round players that we pick need to be impact players on defense with starter potential. I couldn’t imagine him taking anything other than a DT or LB in the 1st round though. I don’t think we can trade up to grab McClain or Suh because we need to draft for depth at other positions including but not limited to Offensive Line and RB (I just cant roll with the Spiller/Best in the 1st crew). If this years draft is truly deep with DT’s, then I’d agree with the people that say we should go LB in the 1st. If thats the case, then I trust that Reese can find a sleeper Safety in the 3rd and go DT in the 2nd. Geez I’m getting dizzy thinking about all the possibilities.
Awaiting the draft :/
this defense is so terrible
I can’t decide what I want to see reese do with the 15th pick, if an opportunity were to arise and we can some how get Suh or Mclain then I think reese should do it, however, I don’t think he should agree to any deal that includes draft picks in this years draft besides the 15th pick.
CHUUUUUUUUUUUUUCH
If they pick a DE
then we know that Osi might be in play for a trade.
Well, just thinking about the comments
They made about Osi still being their plans, what plans are they talking about? Retaining him and playing him, or a plan to trade him for something? At this point, it wouldn’t surprise me if they did, or Kiwi!
i believe in their plans means
that he is in their plans to be on the team next year
by mclaren_is_the_best on Jan 19, 2010 2:01 PM EST up reply actions
I have a tendency to look beyond the surface of quotes
Thats why i brought it up. Not saying your wrong though. :)
Trade the 1st Round Pick
Anyone thought that without a CBA it might be a good idea to trade away the first round pick to someone?
The Giants have tons of cash and not too many teams have more to compete in FA so why not just put your dollars there if you can’t get someone in that slot at 15.
Just been thinking about it for a few days as I like Dan Williams but I just don’t love anyone at where we are picking and we really need a playmaker at LB and DT next year and at our slot I doubt we’ll find it.
Why are the Patriots allowed to take adavantage of the Raiders every year? Why can’t we send our 15 pick to the Raiders for their 2012 first round pick and a number 2 this year and 2 Number 3’s in 2011?
Dang...
You beat me to it. Can you believe that, Broncos go from 28th to 7th on D, and they dump the new coordinator. Go figure.
Fewell by all accounts is a good choice, but if we had known Nolan was available, to me it would have been a no-brainer.
Denver's run D was atrocious.
worse then the Giants.
Maybe it was the players….but they got run up for 259 yards by Jamaal Charles.
…..Fewell, even if Nolan was out there at the same time…would be a better choice.
Q: How to the NY Giants get Jahvid Best on the team?
A: ?
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 19, 2010 3:28 PM EST up reply actions
Most of the value for DT in this draft is in the 2nd round.
Brian Price is the 3rd best DT…yet, more of a Jay Alford type (which is why they don’t really need him).
Trade down and pick up a 2nd rounder. Someone like Arthur Jones from Cuse or Jared Ordick are bound to be there. Both are much better runs stuffers and have the quickness to get after the QB too.
….anything they can do to get Jahvid Best on the team…!!!
How come China can't vote David Lee for All-Star?
Well
We should then go after the FA LB’s and move down and get some more 2nd rounders. i like Ordick – I think he can add the weight as well.
I think they should go after any potential FA that could fit a need.
JR needs to not be swayed by 2009.
Basically nothing went right. I don’t think they’ll be so struck with bad luck.
They don’t need stars, they need parts. I don’t care if a guy never made the Pro Bowl…
They need solid players. DT, LB, S..anything or all….just get it. Don’t go crazy…but don’t get 2009 out of the head.
Cuz it would make it a lot easier to draft BPA. It would also be a bit easier to dismiss some dead weight.
Q: How to the NY Giants get Jahvid Best on the team?
A: ?
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 19, 2010 12:44 PM EST up reply actions
You're right about the DT situation.
…but you’re a little too high on Jahvid Best, I think. At best (excuse the pun,) he’s Reggie Bush. At worst, Peter Warrick. (Although Cal is so poorly coached, it’s hard to tell.)
I left my swagger in my other pants.
I've Heard
Multiple sources says this is the deepest DT draft they have ever seen…..
Sounds good to me, I’d like three please…..
Part of me would like to just blow that position up and start over..but most of me knows that
would be a big mistake..This is certainly a big hole that needs attention in the draft and FA..The only way to flush this out is to load up prospects and let it play out in camp.
I'm not sure whether he is or isn't..
I do know one thing..I the NFL doesn’t solve this CBA issue and is staring at a potential lock-out in 2011, then our team will be looking at serious re-building issues, along with most of the other teams..that would be a major disaster..and it really screws up how this year unfolds..Do you go youth? or hope for the best?
No Salary Cap?
Folks, the thing to remember is that just because there might not be a salary cap does not mean that JR can just open up the checkbook and go crazy. Aside from the 6 yr service rule, you give up a premium player to sign one. No salary cap really benefits teams (right now anyway) that drafted well so they don’t have to lose premium players as “salary cap casualties.” To put this in perspective, the Panthers could actually sign Julius Peppers to a 2-3 contract instead of doing the yearly franchise-tag-dance they are doing now.
lesson learned from last season, re: DL
Don’t believe the hype.
I think FA help, a proven vet, better vetted than last year, as well as drafting for the position, is what we need to do.
trade
I would trade something for Darnell Dockett, he’s not happy in Arizona. Maybe a 3rd and 5th?? I don’t know, it would be nice to see him in blue.
by rumble27 on Jan 19, 2010 2:50 PM EST via mobile reply actions
would love to get him.
That’s too much as far as picks.
Q: How to the NY Giants get Jahvid Best on the team?
A: ?
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 19, 2010 3:30 PM EST up reply actions
I don't know..our trade and FA history is abyssmal..always has been..
and Draft some animals that dont have all that fucking art on their arms !! for chrissakes..I want to see guys that have “Mom” tattooed on their carcasses…If I want to see Art, I’ll go to the Guggenhiem or Clouisters..If I want to watch Dinasoars I’ll visit the Museum of natural goddamn history..not sign a FA…or a tatooed boob…Excuse me I do believe I have embarked on a rant..Oh hell, I’ll stay with it for a bit..The only war heroes you can go stare at are in the Metropolitan museum..When I watch the G-men I want to watch football players…Well, end of rant..or whatever the hell I just typed !!
I just re-read my comment here..
This has to be the dumbest thing I ever wrote !!..I am LMAO ..I’m blaming George for wanting to drive the Golf Cart.
Here's an interesting tid bit.
What if someone makes an offer to Cofield? Say.. a team with some extra picks?
As a RFA, Giants would be due some compensation.
Do you keep Barry or let him go and use that extra pick or 2 on a DT?
I’d consider it. He is young. Yet, I wonder what the compensation would be? I think its a 2nd rounder at least.
Maybe if a team like Seattle gets him…that’s a high 2nd rounder!
Q: How to the NY Giants get Jahvid Best on the team?
A: ?
Darnell Dockett
Is there anyway we can get Darnell Dockett??!! HE A BEAST!!!!!!!!!!
depends on the offer.
I’m sure there’s a way…not sure its reasonable.
Giants can’t be giving away multiple picks for one player.
It gets late real early out here....
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 19, 2010 4:34 PM EST up reply actions
if we
give a 3rd and 5th for him our d-line would be unstoppable!..tuck canty dockett and osi!!!
waaaay too much.
It gets late real early out here....
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 19, 2010 4:51 PM EST up reply actions
lol?! 3rd and 5th is too much?!
He is one of the best atm. I wouldn’t mind giving a first for him if the cards were up to it (they wouldn’t be)
by mclaren_is_the_best on Jan 19, 2010 5:35 PM EST up reply actions
no...he's really not.
I’d only give up one pick for him…definitely not a first.
…just like the Cards entire defense…he’s very inconsistent.
3rd..maybe 2nd, but only one pick.
It gets late real early out here....
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 19, 2010 6:34 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe
only a second is a good deal but i dont think 3rd and 5th is that bad for him…we’ll see what JR will do
JR is the reason I don't wanna do it.
Giants need more then one DT.
I’d rather have a S, LB, DT, OL and RB..all within the 1st 5 rounds.
Its a deep draft defense wise, and JR can work his magic with that.
DT is only one of those needs.
The Giants only have their own picks. Unless they plan on trading some players for picks, or trading down and accumulating picks…there is no reason to go and trade for one player.
Dockett isn’t good enough to be worth 2 picks….even if its a 3rd and a 5th. Giants need to get faster in the back 7.
DT doesn’t help team speed…..
If we were talking about a LB for a 3rd and a 5th…then maybe. I’d feel more comfortable about it if they traded down from their 1st or 2nd round pick and had some extras.
It gets late real early out here....
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 19, 2010 11:29 PM EST up reply actions
Boley was supposed to provide some of that team speed
too bad what he has in speed he lacks in toughness and any kind of run stopping ability.
What I mean is that we don’t need only speed or toughness or athleticism in players we need players that are more well rounder and have it all
by mclaren_is_the_best on Jan 20, 2010 1:39 AM EST up reply actions
Kiwi...?
…that name is just not football. How ’bout Nuka or Nuke? sounds more football to me.
by Last year in Sec 127 on Jan 19, 2010 5:36 PM EST reply actions
He gets a good nickname when he actually does something.
Kiwi is the king of the Almost Sack. As in, “He almost had a big sack, but then McNabb converted a 3rd-and-22.” Makes me nuts.
I left my swagger in my other pants.
Ed, something tells me ...
that all of us Draft-niks are gonna crash the server during the open thread on draft night (prime time baby !!!)
Kiwanuka
I think we should Try Kiwanuka or Justin Tuck at DT in some formations. With Osi and Kiwanuka or Tuck at the Ends. I remember we did this one game and we were getting a lot of pressure on the QB. I think we should get a DT in the second round if we could get a top notch LB in the 1st round. If we could get a Grade A and A- or B type players in our first 2 picks i think We will be back on top Next year
Giants already do that
In passing situations one of those guys is almost always at defensive tackle. Neither of them is big enough to play inside against the run, though, so it can’t be a full-time thing.
by Ed Valentine on Jan 20, 2010 7:57 AM EST up reply actions
Tuck was hurt this year
so he couldn’t play DT and they put Kiwanuka instead….big mistake – kiwi was absolute garbage at DT
by mclaren_is_the_best on Jan 20, 2010 5:09 PM EST up reply actions
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