New York Giants position breakdowns: Running back
by Ed Valentine on Jan 15, 2010 7:00 AM EST
in News
205 comments
In our continuing series of position-by-position breakdowns for our New York Giants, it is time to look at another spot that bears watching this off-season.
Running back.
Just exactly what does the future hold for this position -- and in particular Brandon Jacobs' status as the Giants featured back -- as it relates to the 2010 season?
Your guess, to be honest, is as good as mine. Let's look at the players, and the possibilities. To me, there are serious questions the Giants must consider about every back currently on the roster.
Brandon Jacobs: What should we make of the big fella? Whether it was his knee, sometimes ineffective blocking in front of him, the plays he was asked to run, or maybe his mindset after signing a rich long-term contract I don't know. Maybe it was all of those things combined. What I do know is the 2009 version of Jacobs was not the same as the 2007 and 2008 versions of Jacobs that the Giants built their offensive philosophy around.
Jacobs has already undergone what was supposedly minor knee surgery this off-season. Coming off that surgery the Giants have to make a decision. Do they believe they are going to see the 2007-2008 version of Jacobs in the upcoming season, or if they believe that devastating, bullish back who made teams fear him is gone?
The Giants know they must re-establish some semblance of the dominant ground game that keyed their offense in 2007 and 2008. Ultimately, they must decide if Jacobs is still a) durable enough and b) enough of a force to be the guy to rebuild around.
If they decide he is, I will cross my fingers and hope they are right. If they decide he isn't it will be very interesting to see if they go to the extreme of cutting ties with him. Remember, if this turns out to be an uncapped year turning Jacobs loose would mean no salary cap hit for the Giants. So, it might be their only chance to make that move without serious financial consequences.
Ahmad Bradshaw: Love the guy. I can't even tell you how much respect I gained for him this season, watching him play so incredibly hard and well on broken feet and bad ankles. Especially in the season's final, meaningless game when many of his injured teammates -- and the team's entire defense -- had already packed it in.
The question about Bradshaw is how much work he can handle. He gained 778 yards this season, averaging 4.7 yards per carry. AB carried the ball slightly more than 10 times per game, and I'm not so sure he can be counted on to do any more than that.
As good as he can be, if 10-12 touches per game is the right workload for Bradshaw that means he is still no more than a piece to the puzzle, a secondary guy who can't be the featured back.
DJ Ware: Potential, potential, potential. That seems to be all we have heard about this guy. Until the end of the 2009 season, though, when we heard some questions about Ware's work ethic. Ware has now spent three seasons with the Giants, and basically still has nothing to show for them -- a lot like Sinorice Moss. Sooner or later, performance has to overrule potential. You have to wonder at this point if Ware will get a chance to reach his potential with the Giants, or if he is going to be looking for work elsewhere for the 2010 season. Right now, I think he ends up looking for work.
Gartrell Johnson: We really have no idea what the Giants have in Johnson. He is a powerfully built 5-foot-11, 218-pound back who was a fourth-round selection by San Diego last spring. The Giants picked him up when Ware was injured, and he saw very limited duty. At the least, Johnson should have a real chance to make the team next fall. If the Giants were to decide to cut ties with Jacobs, I would think Johnson -- who has a reputation as an excellent inside the tackles runner, would have a chance to be part of a rotation with Bradshaw. He should at least be able to contribute in short-yardage situations.
Andre Brown -- The 2009 fourth-round pick from North Carolina State is another huge wild-card in this debate. Brown's skill-set drew lots of comparisons to Derrick Ward during the 2009 training camp. And it looked like Brown might edge Ware for the third running back slot before he tore his Achilles Tendon. Modern technology brings many injured athletes back as good or better than before, but an Achilles injury is potentially devastating to a running back. We just have to wait and see if the injury costs Brown any speed, explosiveness or cutting ability. He MIGHT be the Giants No. 1 back at some point. He might also be damaged goods, a guy who will never be what he could have been. Right now there is no way to know.
Conclusion: I didn't give you one of these on other positions, but feel like I have to here. No matter what they do with Jacobs I am not in the 'draft a running back in the first round' camp. No way, no how. The Giants have some good running backs already available to them on their current roster, and if they get the line play straightened out they have enough. Besides, there are so many needs on the defensive side of the ball that to go offense -- running back or otherwise -- with the first pick is nothing short of foolish.
Keep: Jacobs, Bradshaw, Brown, Johnson
Dump: Ware
Draft/Free Agency Priority: 3
(E-mail Ed at bigblueview@gmail.com)
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i love this series
but i have a question. what does:
Draft/Free Agency Priority: 3
signify? i’m just confused about that.
I should explain that again
I explained it in the first post, but I should continue to mention it. I’m grading priority 1-5, with 5 as lowest and 1 as highest. So, 3 is right in the middle. So, you have it right.
by Ed Valentine on Jan 15, 2010 7:25 AM EST up reply actions
Good Job ED!
but the Giants are not going to cut brandon Jacobs, he will see reduced carries before that happens. and uncapped year does not mean that they will let him go compared to other running backs brandon jacobs deal is actually a hell of a bargain he would have gotten more money to go somewhere else last year. Brandon has given us two good years, to cut him after one subpar year is not the M.O. of T.C. or jerry reese they work with their problems they dont just let them go i.e. corey webster. i think we have a great nucleus of backs if A.B. is healthy. I dont really know what your watching but if he was healthy he could more than carry the load and then we also have brown so i would not draft a running back until the 5th round this year too many other needs.
B.G.
by Blue Gates on Jan 15, 2010 9:11 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Jacobs
I really don’t think they will cut him, either. I just believe it is something that has to be placed out there as a possibility given the likelihood of an ‘uncapped’ year. Ideally, a return to form by Jacobs is the best thing. As for Bradshaw, I didn’t say he ’couldn’t’ carry a bigger load. Really what I was trying to say is he has never been asked to, and because he got so beat up you have to wonder if he actually can handle more carries.
by Ed Valentine on Jan 15, 2010 9:36 AM EST up reply actions
Overall, you have to wonder
If any of our RB’s can be trusted? How they may distribute the carries is anyones guess, but it all comes down to who’s healthy enough? As much as i admire AB’s toughness, his injuries deprive him of overall effectiveness. Jeepers, i could say that about all of our backs!
great thoughts Blue Gates
I think the key is to get another very good 3rd guy into the rotation, and let each guy average 8-10 carries a game or as needed to fit the game plan. Jake is a unique weapon and worth keeping.
You play to win the game!
by Simms-McConkey on Jan 15, 2010 11:25 AM EST up reply actions
I don't know
if I can agree with the 8-10 carry per back thing. I think that our running game had no rhythm this year. There were plenty of games that Bjake did not get the ball enough or Bradshaw was running well and didn’t get the ball enough. If you look at the top 3 rushing teams in the league, only Carolina split carries evenly and part of that stat came because Williams was hurt and missed some games. Thomas Jones of the Jets averages around 20 carries a game and Chris Johnson averages around 23. Too many times this year, the Gmen abandoned the run. For Bjake to be effective, he has to have more than 10 touches. I would also like to see Bradshaw get at least 15 touches a game.
I'd like to see
a redux of the ’07 attack, with Jacobs as the 1/power, Bradshaw in the Ward role as the 2/speed back, and a 3rd back to rest them both. I misspoke on the even carries. 15/10/5?
You play to win the game!
by Simms-McConkey on Jan 15, 2010 2:10 PM EST up reply actions
This position (and DL) ...
is one where we could be just fine, if guys come back healthy, or we could be in real trouble.
Jacobs needs to run the way he started out, and not try and “extend his career” or he will just be shortening it. Bradshaw is awesome, and we need to design some more feature plays for his skills. You need 3 backs in this league, as injuries happen more to RB’s it seems. I would certainly give Ware another camp to show if he’s progressed.
Spending a #4 or 5 pick (even a # 3 if you think you have a real sleeper) at RB is O.K. by me, but I think we have seen that you don’t spend the high draft choices on a position that has such a short shelf life.
Agreed
“or we could be in real trouble” I think we are, how do you make a decision on this, good luck to JR, not an easy decision. Jacobs is definitely attempting to extend his career and I’m not to sure he cares about it being shortened, it seems for him he either converts himself or he walks off with his health in tact and 13- 17mil. You would think he would at least take the old role he played with Tiki, and blast dues on short yardage and goal line situations, I think that would work for all and make everyone happy in the long run.
Not for this thread, but as I mentioned yesterday, there are so many ?’s with the G-man.
I agree..
if we need a RB, we can pick one up 5th round or later…
I like Keiland Williams with our 5th or 6th pick, assuming we already got a DT (Price or Williams, unless McClain falls in our lap), S (Stuckey 1st or Reshad Jones), MLB (Micah Johnson or Josh Bynes), and OT(Ciron Black if he’s stillaround or Sergio Render or Zane Beadles), my last pick would be a C/OG guy (Kenny Alfred, Wash St.) or Matt Tenant.
Opus smart , lascivio magis , intereo gauisus...
I didn't mean Stuckey for the first pick, it would be for
a 2nd round pick, assuming, everyone else better at S is already picked up
Opus smart , lascivio magis , intereo gauisus...
Spiller
the only way we should take him if he’s there is if we can trade him for an experienced player at DT LB or Safety, otherwise, nooo way.
by BigBlueCrew_jfl on Jan 15, 2010 7:31 AM EST reply actions
Tough position...
the 3 or 4 guys that should be brought back…all had HUGE questionmarks..that all could go south again.
They are in big trouble again, cuz the running game helps take pressure off everything, including the defense.
They NEED another back.
Don’t know what’s wrong with drafting Spiller. The way the Giants use their RB’s…the shelf life is a bit longer.
If players like Earl Thomas, Brian Price, Rolando McClain, Dan Williams or even Morgan Burnett..are all gone, which is possible (and also possible they don’t view a few as 1st rounders), why reach? I guess they could trade back….but if Spiller’s running Chris Johnson type 40’s….they can’t pass that up.
Team speed is a big problem. BIG problem. Spiller…solves some of that.
How come China can't vote David Lee for All-Star?
Spiller
IMHO what is wrong with drafting Spiller is that the Giants have much bigger needs on the defensive side of the ball. It has been shown over and over that you can get quality running backs later on. That is the big problem that really needs to be solved.
by Ed Valentine on Jan 15, 2010 7:50 AM EST up reply actions
while I agree completely that running back is far from the biggest need
Spiller is a game-changing player. He’s a DeSean Jackson/Percy Harvin/Joshua Cribbs/Devin Hester type of guy. He’s not going to be Adrian Peterson, but he has the potential to help the Giants in the run game, the passing game, and (perhaps most importantly) the return game. I’m all aboard the Rolando McClain bandwagon, and I think LB, S, and DT are all way more important needs than RB, but I would not be opposed to taking CJ Spiller (and ONLY CJ Spiller if they go offense) in the first round.
2009 Did Not Happen
I agree CJ..but he would be the only one I'd consider..He is multi-talented
He would fill alot of gaps across the offense and special teams
Fully
I really would only take CJ Spiller if hes the best player there. We need a game changer agreed. And if we cannot land Price, Thomas, McClain or the likes of that talent then I’m for CJ
Game-changer
If there is a choice between a game-changing offensive player and a game-changing defensive one, the Giants have to choose defense.
by Ed Valentine on Jan 15, 2010 5:37 PM EST up reply actions
no doubt...
yet….are guys like Earl Thomas or Morgan Burnett game changers?
Rolando McClain probably is one.
Brian Price..maybe.
But I don’t think there’s any doubt that Spiller is one for the offense.
JR is the one with the big red button anyway….if all these guys, except for McClain of course, are on the board….its a real tough decision.
…even HughG16 brings up Carlos Dunlap…who probably would be the best athlete on the defense.
How come China can't vote David Lee for All-Star?
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 15, 2010 5:46 PM EST up reply actions
Well..
You raise a very good point Ed..Me like most of you guys are wondering what went wrong with these guys..It was a collective train wreck to the level I’ve never seen before. Fewell signed up for a major task to straighten it out and with me I’m thinking more of a coaching problem vs talent..I don’t know..I look at who we have and wonder..and I’ll also submit that we cannot bet that KP comes back fullly healthy, Aaron Ross is another question mark..As far as I’m concerned we have just two players back there we can count on, Thomas and Webster..The more I look at it the more I think our defense is broken across the board..But if a guy like Spillers is sticking to the board how can we pass on him?..The other thing we need to talk about is general Depth on both sides of the ball..We don’t have any..Somebody gets hurt we are screwed and that is offense and defense..and the training staff..something is wrong when guys are going down for extended periods of time with “pull” injuries it is crazy..Only me and George bring that up..something is not right there..
i dont see any RBs on your list of inpact players.
thats because theres no such thing . unless your barry “the great” sanders. every RB needs a good run blocking OL, which we r are from having.everyone how thinks other wise. check a petersons #s the second half of year when they started having OL injuries.
This is where the new DC comes into play.
This guy has consistently gotten more with nothing.
Secondary is his specialty. Consistently churning out excellent DB’s from all over the draft, and usually in their rookie year they are good already.
He will make Mike Johnson back to his 2008 form….take that to the bank. All those UDFA’s that we all thought were pretty good? Well…throw em back in there cuz if they had the physical talent, this guy can teach.
As for the DL/LB/OL? Well, that’s why they make more then 1 round.
With this guy on board, and the talent that really is still on the roster (most of these guys are still young), its not as set.
If Spiller’s BPA and they are blown away (and JR is wondering why this guy is not a AP top 10 pick…) they need to get him.
Gamebreakers.
Who on offense is one? Maybe Nicks? Manningham maybe. Smith is a chain mover. Bradshaw probably the only one to semi be a game breaker.
They need speed.
I mean…unless they are sold that one of the D-Players I mentioned are on the board and BPA..then of course (and also Spiller’s gone).
But just cuz the defense sucked shouldn’t mean they are skipping over the BPA at their spot. And someone who may be the BPA by a long margin.
Not saying JR even likes Spiller either….
How come China can't vote David Lee for All-Star?
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 15, 2010 8:05 AM EST up reply actions
Any other year
I would say RB is number 1 or 2 on the need list. Every RB but Gartrell is coming off surgery. That doesn’t give me a warm and fuzzy. Yes at least 2 of them are likely to be fine but it’s still a gamble.
But this year the D is top draft priority. We need another KP.
Count on PF to coach em up!
Agree with Free on drafting BPA. Fewell will certainly get the D playing better in 2K10.
LarryHarryCarlPepper
by gr8kicks on Jan 15, 2010 9:50 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
In the FA and cap world of the NFL ...
I think you have to go “modified BPA” in the first few rounds. If a group of guys are close, you have to take the one that fills a need. If that would be a reach, trade down, and take him at the right level.
You don’t spend a 1st round pick for a guy that will touch the ball 10-15 times a game at most when your defense is giving up 26 ppg. Especially considering that our offense played very well even without any running game this year.
by mclaren_is_the_best on Jan 15, 2010 11:43 AM EST up reply actions
one.
single rookie is not gonna solve a damn thing on defense…and you know it.
It makes no sense to say “draft defense cuz the defense sucks”.
No…you don’t do that. JR failed cuz everyone and their mother told him that the Giants needed to draft 10,000 WR.
The Running game is a problem. As big a problem as the defense.
YOU DO NOT PASS UP A TALENT LIKE SPILLER….if JR feels he’s a Chris Johnson talent.
The Giants got their best draft pick already…that’s a firey DC that will get them back towards 2008 form.
There is basically everyone here from 2008 defense. So…get em going.
This draft is for 2011 anyway…..you can’t expect a god damn rookie to turn the defense around.
How come China can't vote David Lee for All-Star?
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 15, 2010 12:12 PM EST up reply actions
You can say the same about Spiller. The oline hasn’t made any holes this year to run through, doesn’t matter who is in the backfield when our guys are going backwards….
Even if Spiller was a Chris Johnson clone everyone forgets that the Titans have one of the best Olines in the game. Yes, its CJ that is running past the safeties and cornerbacks but on our team he wouldn’t have gotten more than 1200-1300 yards because not even he can break Dlineman tackles.
And a DT could help our pass rush a lot because then we wouldn’t have to use Canty or Cofield on passing downs.
by mclaren_is_the_best on Jan 15, 2010 1:02 PM EST up reply actions
the same Titans
O-Line was as good as teh Giants in 2008.
THey aren’t any younger. So what gave?
Jacobs became puss. Bradshaw had a broken foot. And that’s all there was.
Spiller would absolutely be able to make quicker work of the holes that are there.
Absolutely he would help the offense and the entire team.
How come China can't vote David Lee for All-Star?
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 15, 2010 2:52 PM EST up reply actions
They are younger compared to our group of guys and I’m guessing they stayed healthy this year.
Also that would mean that Spiller is as good as CJ which we don’t know. CJ was great last year as well
by mclaren_is_the_best on Jan 15, 2010 3:31 PM EST up reply actions
I meant
That would imply that Spiller is as good as CJ which is unlikely at best
by mclaren_is_the_best on Jan 15, 2010 4:04 PM EST up reply actions
why not?
Cushing, Matthews, Orakpo, Jairus Byrd… Any of those rookies would have instantly upgraded our D. And it just so happens that they’re LBs and a Safety. Those are the biggest needs on this team.
Even if we grab a 1st rd RB and he happens to beat out BJ, AB and Brown to be the starter (unlikely), he’s probably only going to see the ball 20 times a game at most. A healthy Hedgecock and a bounce-back year from the line will improve our running game more than a high draft pick will.
Those guys didn't upgrade teh D
as much as the players around them did.
Haynesworth as well as the Skins good LB corp.
The Packers have a good LB corp.
The Texans have a good front 7.
Byrd…well, that’s why we got Perry Fewell.
So no..I don’t think ANY of those rookies would’ve done SQUAT with the Giants.
One RB who sees the ball 20 times is a lot more then the guys here would.
How come China can't vote David Lee for All-Star?
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 15, 2010 2:54 PM EST up reply actions
our leading tackler was a corner
Our LB’s were horrible last year. Any one of those guys would be a huge upgrade over the player he replaced. You’re delusional to think a 100+tackle player would not have done squat for us.
Who’s the potential every-down back who would be a big upgrade over the guys we have? It certainly isn’t Spiller. At 5’11" and 195 Tiki would make him look small. Why waste the 15th pick on a situational player?
you ever heard of Brian Westbrook?
Spiller’s got that sort of talent.
Giants need 3RB’s.
Fewell is the type of DC that can make 4-7th round DB’s and DT’s…guys like Nate Vasher, Chris Harris (Bears) or Kyle Williams (Bills) into PRO BOWL or alternate caliber players.
Do not underestimate this…the Giants have plenty of talent to take care of Fewell’s aggressive and creative defensive schemes.
The Giants have Jacobs and Bradshaw…who just will never be 100%.
The Giants got stuck in the ass with Andre Brown…who actually was quite injury prone in college too (that’s why he’s a 4th rounder).
CJ Spiller is a potential top 5 pick. So what if he’s “Reggie Bush”? A healthy Reggie Bush is a HELL of a NFL player…its just not the #2 overall pick caliber $$$, but certainly a #15 overall pick player.
Spiller is basically a Tiki Barber type…except with a whole lot more speed.
If he’s the BPA and they have him far and away rated over the next available S, DT, or LB….then they need to pounce on what would be a steal of a pick.
How come China can't vote David Lee for All-Star?
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 15, 2010 4:35 PM EST up reply actions
tell green bay , washington and cincinnati that.
brian orakpo, clay matthews,bj raji.rey maualuga. all top 10 def. all pro type impact rookies.
none of them are the reason why their teams defense are good.
Those are good players…but Haynesworth for the Redskins,
A healthy Nick Barnett and Charles Woodson for the Pack
And basically everyone else next to Rey Rey in Cincy were any reason those guys were any good.
Those guys are not All-Pro’s yet, and they didn’t make their defense what they were..it was everyone else.
How come China can't vote David Lee for All-Star?
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 16, 2010 11:04 AM EST up reply actions
Antwan Odom was hurt waaay before Rey was.
How come China can't vote David Lee for All-Star?
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 16, 2010 11:40 AM EST up reply actions
you're gonna act like that was on Maualuga?
How come China can't vote David Lee for All-Star?
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 16, 2010 2:40 PM EST up reply actions
so uh...
not playing is the answer.
How come China can't vote David Lee for All-Star?
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 16, 2010 11:41 AM EST up reply actions
wow.
Amazing what having Haynesworth doing his thing will do.
How come China can't vote David Lee for All-Star?
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 16, 2010 11:41 AM EST up reply actions
That may be true Troy
But you have to look at their circumstances. Two out of the four played because there team had no choice (Orakpo and Rey), Matthews played because of Kampmans injury, Raji wasn’t called upon out of need because GB already had Jolly and Pickett for the middle.
You could scour the league with similar instances where rookies do start, but thats because of injuries. These guys aren’t penciled in automatically when they’re drafted. Quick example would be Indy, they lost both CB’s and were starting two rookies before it was all said and done.
Really...
Matt Forte? Steve Slaton? Chris Johnson too.
more then a few RB’s are best in their rookie years. Some get better, some regress.
How come China can't vote David Lee for All-Star?
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 17, 2010 1:05 PM EST up reply actions
Usually its the other way around
RB is the easiest position to go from College to Pros. The only thing they really need to learn is pass blocking.
The hardest would be WR, CB, QB, at least I would assume so.
Never assume skill at bouncing a ball makes you smarter than the guy who built the court.
When there's a WILL there's a WAY
DT and DE too are usually tough too.
at least if we’re talking about coming in and starting
And yea, RB is the easiest position to come in and do well….possibly the only position on the field that is like that.
How come China can't vote David Lee for All-Star?
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 17, 2010 2:38 PM EST up reply actions
Really?
Defensive Tackle?
DE I could see because you’re facing better Tackles, and you can’t just use one move against them like some would do in college, but DT?
Never assume skill at bouncing a ball makes you smarter than the guy who built the court.
When there's a WILL there's a WAY
No Spiller
I agree that they have to go defense in the early rounds – DT, ILB, SS – to the extent there are no improvements in free agency. With better performance by only one or two defenders, esp DL, they might have won the Arizona, San Diego, and second Philadelphia games (or maybe two of the three) and been in the playoffs , even with the running game as bad as it was. Defense is a problem that must be solved if the Giants are to go anywhere in 2010.
Besides, I am also reluctant to invest a high pick in a position which has a high injury rate and a short playing life. Rodney Hampton was a first round pick who was washed up at age 27. I would rather take the Giants’ approach and have a stable of capable backs; if one gets hurt, they just plug in another. I note that none were drafted before the fourth round.
I also note that the draft is 3 1/2 months away. Reese will have a much better handle on the results of the surgeries by then.
Mickey C
yea....
he’s a different style of runner.
Spiller is a speed back. Guys like him do last longer.
How come China can't vote David Lee for All-Star?
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 15, 2010 8:45 AM EST up reply actions
yea
you really can’t compare Rodney Hampton to CJ Spiller. Different players, different eras. Hampton was a 25-30 carries/game power back. Spiller’s a 10-15 carries, 3-5 catches, + kick returns type of guy who has explosive speed.
2009 Did Not Happen
Thats whats appealing in Spiller
He’s a triple threat, an all purpose yardage type of player. How many are like him in the later rounds, IDK, but it would be interesting to see what would happen if he was available.
First Round pick for 10-15 carries per game?
That is a luxury pick for a team with no real needs. The Giants need defenders who can play 50 downs per game at a high level.
Mickey C
Why is the defender gonna play so much?
You honestly think he is?
McClain might. Eric Berry might.
KP and Aaron Ross didn’t do that. Ross started games only because the starter at the time went down with an injury.
He’s a rookie…he’s probably not gonna start right away.
Rookie RB’s, especially ones that are complete like Spiller (blocking…) can come in and play right away.
What does the 10-15 carries matter? He’s fully capable at getting 100yds out of that 10-15 anyway..so that’s a good thing right?
How come China can't vote David Lee for All-Star?
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 15, 2010 9:14 PM EST up reply actions
It matters because we have much bigger needs defensively than a running back who will touch the ball once per 5 plays and IIRC our offense played well without any running game anyways.
by mclaren_is_the_best on Jan 15, 2010 9:54 PM EST up reply actions
actually...
the offense would’ve been a whole lot better if they could run the ball more consistently.
And if they’re going to a more pass oriented offense with Eli…why not get a better pass catcher?
Why not a guy who if he’s only gonna get the ball 10-15 times…can pick up gigantic chunks anyway?
Offense wasn’t the problem, but if the running game was any good last year it would’ve masked a lot.
How come China can't vote David Lee for All-Star?
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 15, 2010 10:02 PM EST up reply actions
they don’t even pass to the tight end. why would killdrive even think about passing to the rb.
and anyway spiller isn’t some amazing player that is guaranteed to get you big yards every time he touches the ball. our oline just couldn’t make holes last year.
in fact bradshaw is probably just as good as spiller except he isn’t as fast in the open field. Which doesn’t matter because behind our current oline spiller won’t find himself there often
by mclaren_is_the_best on Jan 15, 2010 11:03 PM EST up reply actions
they do pass to the RB...
AB or Jacobs just drop the ball…..
How come China can't vote David Lee for All-Star?
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 15, 2010 11:19 PM EST up reply actions
Spiller scored in every game he played last season
That could easily turn into 8-10 TDs as a rook. Our D stays off the field when we run the ball well.
Spiller is boom or bust
Either he is going to get you a ton of yards or nothing. So the D will be on the field anyway because he will either take it to the house or he won’t get the first down
by mclaren_is_the_best on Jan 16, 2010 6:31 PM EST up reply actions
Why would you say that?
If Spiller can’t get 4yds per carry…Jacobs sure as hell ain’t getting it either.
Spiller’s quicker and faster then AB, even at his
“vs. the Bills- free-bradshaw” speed.
The guy is unlike anything the Giants have ever had at RB.
How come China can't vote David Lee for All-Star?
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 16, 2010 9:06 PM EST up reply actions
Bradshaw is stronger and breaks more tackles
if our oline can’t make good holes then spiller won’t do anything
if our oline can make holes then our RB’s can do the rest
by mclaren_is_the_best on Jan 17, 2010 12:10 AM EST up reply actions
Ed, I cant wait to hear the rest of your position-by-position break down.
We have not even made it to the defense yet and the o-line has already gotten a 3 and now the running backs have a 3. where as if this was a year ago I’m sure it would have been a 5 for the two to go along with the 5 for the receivers. To many ?’s for the G-men going into 2010.
Yeah, it's easy to say ...
“draft a stud at this position” when we are focused on that position in a vacuum, but I think when we get to the D position breakdowns, and if we think of them in the context of the whole team’s needs, we will be calling for LB first in the draft (since we have no real talent/depth here, and not even some guys we can get back from injury – unless you think Boley was that hampered in 2009).
A lot of you are calling for DL help (esp. DT), but we have Canty, Alford, Coffield and Tuck, Osi and Kiwi (not to mention Tollefson). Even at DB we have CWeb, TT, Ross & hopefully KP is not done. At LB the cupboard is bare.
by Shofner85 on Jan 15, 2010 8:26 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
My thoughts exactly
Im with you on the LB need. Gmen honestly need someone like Brandon Spikes. Just a madman running around who loves to smash people. A guy with attitude. Theres no attitude on this D anymore. No enforcers. A Ray Lewis’ mindset guy.
I think with the talent on the DL they hopefully will have a bounce back year without too much of an addition or subtraction of players.
DB is 1-2 (ed’s scale) in need after LB. if LB is first round DBs gotta be second round and vice versa. and i really think its gotta be safety. The future of my man KP is unfortunatly up in the air so a top notch safety is a must
the ONLY way we take CJ spiller is if every 1st round quality LB and DB is taken. Then you have to go with the game changing guy no matter what the needs are.
Give me work release or give me death - #17
by Plaxico Burress on Jan 15, 2010 9:12 AM EST up reply actions
Spikes could possibly be had in the 2nd round
I wouldn’t be opposed to McClain & Spikes 1&2 – completely makoever the linebacking corps in a few hours. But, I also wouldn’t be opposed to Spiller @ 1 – I just think he’s going to be a game changing player. Another guy he reminds me of is Chris Johnson.
I would also love Eric Berry, but there’s no way he’s falling to us, unfortunately. Honestly, I don’t think the Giants can go wrong – they have a decent pick in a deep draft. Unless they draft Colt McCoy or something…
2009 Did Not Happen
Amen Shofner
I truly don’t get all the DL talk and I keep saying it. They way I see it priorities are (this doesn’t mean necessarily draft in this order):
1. LB
2. S
3. OL
4. CB
5. RB
I wouldn’t even include WR, TE, QB, or DL on the list.
You play to win the game!
by Simms-McConkey on Jan 15, 2010 11:30 AM EST up reply actions
before you jump on me
I understand you do need to fill the back ranks in a lot of areas…
You play to win the game!
by Simms-McConkey on Jan 15, 2010 11:30 AM EST up reply actions
DL's on the list...
cuz here…
Robbins and Bernard are gone. Cofield’s a RFA. Canty and Alford are coming off injury plagued/IR seasons.
Basically…..3 DT’s at most, with the only one you can expect to do well in 2010 is Cofield. You can hope for the others…but can’t expect.
They need could use a DL for the rotation….that is, unless they’re planning to make Sintim a DE and throw Tuck in as a DT more often since he’s healthy.
How come China can't vote David Lee for All-Star?
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 15, 2010 12:14 PM EST up reply actions
Bernard
SHOULD be gone. Why is Robbins gone? I hadn’t heard that. FredRob was recently featured in some sports mag article about great DTs I read here. Cofield can be signed, cant he? I expect good things from Canty and Alford. I just feel the bodies are there. Great DE rotation, no doubt, so focusing on DT, I just don’t see it as anything close to a weakness carrying Canty, Alford, Cofield, and a backup with Tuck taking some snaps at DT.
You play to win the game!
by Simms-McConkey on Jan 15, 2010 2:05 PM EST up reply actions
He's 32/33
had knee surgery
and isn’t as good as he has been, and won’t be getting better with age.
I hate to let him go, but I doubt we resign him.
Never assume skill at bouncing a ball makes you smarter than the guy who built the court.
When there's a WILL there's a WAY
Robbins is a FA...
and there’s no reason to bring him back.
Cofield is a RFA..so yea, they gotta sign him…but I think he’ll be back but there’s a chance he’s not.
Corfield is the only one that had a good 2009. Everyone else is gonna have to have a bounce back year in 2010….very similar to the RB’s.
They need an bit of an infusion of talent there.
1st round? Not sure…but most definitely they need to call a DT or DE’s name come April.
How come China can't vote David Lee for All-Star?
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 15, 2010 2:56 PM EST up reply actions
I still think
given the number of costly bodies that need to pan out behind a real DC, O-Line is a greater priority, as well as LB, CB, and S
You play to win the game!
by Simms-McConkey on Jan 18, 2010 8:14 AM EST up reply actions
Robbins
last year was one of the best DT’s….This year he really regressed, it was a big reason why our pass rush struggled – he didn’t cause any disruption to the pocket
by mclaren_is_the_best on Jan 15, 2010 3:25 PM EST up reply actions
Dl
How come China can't vote David Lee for All-Star?
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 15, 2010 12:12 PM EST up reply actions
Jacobs just looked like a completely different runner.
Maybe because guys have literally given up on doing anything but jumping at his knees, he wasn’t breaking as many tackles and seemingly got taken down in the backfield waaaaaay too easily.
Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
That's what I saw.
That guys have given up trying to tackle Jacobs and are just diving at his feet now and tripping him up. Plus the fact that the run blocking was not as good as in years past. I don’t care what Siragusa and Johnston say, if there are no holes what good does it do to just run into 600+ pounds of humanity?
So while maybe some of it was him I don’t think it was all him by a long shot. Having said that I do think the Giants need to critically assess the position and add some talent.
Jacobs was never, ever, great on third, or fourth and short.
We thought he should have been. Everytime he lined up. But it was those situations when he actually ran the smallest. His strength was getting through, getting up some steam five yards in, then slamming a defensive player back into Saturday for an additional five. It is is a myth that he was a great short yardage back. That said, his value, unfortunately, is even lessened. History tells us that backs of his sort don’t last too long due to the punishment. I don’t see him revitalized in the area he excels at, and his “new” style of running isn’t doing much for us as a starter. Trade him if you can.
I agree, trade him if you can
But honestly, i fear that there really isn’t a market for him? How many teams covet a 6-4, 265lb RB that hits the LOS and falls down?
I don't think he's quite that bad ...
but to answer your question, we got nothing for Ron Dayne.
A major part of Jacobs problem has been the fact that teams know how to tackle him now...
He isn’t getting low enough to the ground anymore..He always ran a little too upright but now it is worse.
Another problem
too much east-west running and not enough north-south running from Bjake. Jacobs is not a back that is going to get to the edge and explode. I have no problems with CJ Spiller. A backfield of Spiller and Bradshaw would mirror the Panther’s backfield and we know that they have one of the best running attacks in the league.
i think the rams might, send over carr with him for the number 1 pick. than we can get Suh from nebraska
would ne nice...
but a verrry lonnng shot…they can just pick up Jimmy Clausen if they wanted to pick up a QB, but it’s really tough for Spags & St. Louis to pass up on Suh
Opus smart , lascivio magis , intereo gauisus...
Jacobs and Carr for the #1?
Where do I sign up?
How come China can't vote David Lee for All-Star?
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 15, 2010 10:47 PM EST up reply actions
Carr's a free agent now
He can do whatever he pleases.
I don’t know why Spags would want the backup QB for his former team, or have ties with him.
Never assume skill at bouncing a ball makes you smarter than the guy who built the court.
When there's a WILL there's a WAY
his rookie season
he was decent as a short yardage back. But he’s never been since then, I agree with that. Ron Dayne was the same way – the Giants seem to be stuck in the mindset that big guy = short yardage guy. A lot of times those big guys are better off in the open field, and the small guys are better for short yardage, where they can disappear and find the holes.
2009 Did Not Happen
It seems logical for big backs
For short yardage situations, but these big backs need the space to get into that extra gear. I see that in Jacobs, he lacks that initial burst which allows the D to react. Also, it’s another reason why i don’t like him doing draw plays. It’s a time developing play.
Zilla
someday you will post a positive comment. There is still good in you. I can feel it.
Superbowl XLII, 4th and 1. Handoff to Jacobs… FIRST DOWN! The drive is ALIVE!
You play to win the game!
by Simms-McConkey on Jan 15, 2010 11:35 AM EST up reply actions
in Zill's defense
he BARELY got that 1st. I mean, at first I thought the game was over.
2009 Did Not Happen
It's Eli's offense to carry now.
The running game will have to be rebuilt, not that it will be necessarily bad, but it won’t be the engine that drives the bus. Jacobs IS NOT returning to prominence. Eli is now the engine. Due to what will be an ok, but far from great running game, Eli is thrust into the role his brother had played for years. It’s on your shoulders, E. The running game aint bailing you out.
Running back is probably the biggest question mark/head-scratcher this year..
If they feel Jacobs is pretty much done, then I think draft priority should move to 2, but go after a couple in the lower rounds..Health issues are concerning..Jacobs just isn’t the same anymore..I love AB but how much long term damage has he done by being so tough?..Ware yeah he should go..Williams is untested and was cut when we picked him up..Brown..is a huge question mark also..Sooo, I think this group needs some fairly serious attention.
agree with MC
“I would rather take the Giants’ approach and have a stable of capable backs; if one gets hurt, they just plug in another. I note that none were drafted before the fourth round.”
I think Jacobs comes back and the running attack that Giants had in 2008 returns. BJ starter, AB change of pace, Brown = versatile depth. Agree to keep Johnson over Ware.
But taking the BPA makes sense in this draft because unlike last time at WR the Giants have no single glaring need – with the exception of LB and I am not convinced that you need to draft LBs or RBs high to get talent.
There are exceptions – I just do not know if Spiller is one. Or McClain. Look at Derrick Johnson at KC. A monster out of Texas. Nada in the pros.
So, take BPA in round #1, count on the new DC to get better play from the existing DL and beef up LB in the middle rounds.
RB need not be a draft priority. Better RB health and a vastly improved OL will help return the Giants running game to top 10-12 in the league.
Jacobs need some sore of a hole ...
to hit hard, and get more yards after contact than the avg. back. But, he is slow at bouncing it outside like AB can.
Hopefully, the OL will bounce back in 2010, as there were not the level of holes we saw in 2007-2008 from that crew.
I really don't know, but this is a tough decision
The timing almost seems perfect, if next year is uncapped. I think it might be best if we try to move the big boy? I have tried to think of all the positives as why we should keep him, but there really isn’t from either angle, productivity to economics. Some may think that he has had injuries that has hindered his production, which is true, but does it justify his production vs. salary ratio? Oh, plus, thats just it, he’s always injured or not 100%! We can’t pretend that everything will be alright after another off season and HOPE, he reverts back to ‘07-’08.
So at the very least, we should see what we could get in an equal swap, like a defensive player? If nothing materializes, how about pick(s)? If all else fails, cut your losses and move on. This is a business move!
Though it may seem hard to cut ties with him, think for a moment where he came from? The fourth round! Where did Bradshaw come from, the seventh. Terrell Davis, the sixth. You can go on an on, but the point is that you can find talent throughout the draft, and in todays game, he doesn’t have to carry the full load either, especially at $6mil. So perhaps this may be easier?!
Hedgecock?
I haven’t read any analysis of his role in the running game’s struggles. Just wondering……
Hedgecock
I think thats were it started,he played hurt all year.
If you look at 07 and 08 seasons you seem him on almost every play flying around opening gaps etc,
this last season he just couldnt get the push he normally does. He was one of the single biggest factors in BJ running gamewhen it was working, this past year not so much
You can see a lot just by observing-Yogi Berra
bradshaw
I dont see why you cant see him as an every down back? with him healthy id rather see him with the ball first. He can make way more happen with less and you talked about his toughness. Id like to see jacobs back to his old form but I cant see him running like that for two years back to back again. Id say bench him and see if he can get that fire back if not get rid of him after next year.
oops I crapped my pants!
Bradshaw
Sure, you can try him. But, remember how beat up he got this year. Not saying he can’t handle 17-18 carries a game, but we just don’t know the answer to that question yet.
by Ed Valentine on Jan 15, 2010 9:39 AM EST up reply actions
Bradshaw
Truth be told… He was beat up early in the year and played through most of it… I think he can handle 20 touches per game without any real issues.. Better to pass to him than to hedgecock..
Not a good pass blocker at all.
But I guess when compared to Jacobs, who might as well be a guard back there, anybody is going to look really subpar.
Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
by CasanovaWong on Jan 15, 2010 1:51 PM EST up reply actions
Bradshaw as a blocker
If you take a look at game film from this season vs last season, Brasdshaw did a much better job in 2009.
What other RB's do you guys like in the Draft?
If you don’t like Spiller, then who would you like seen taken in the later rounds? There have been a number of other names thrown around in other posts.
Anthony Dixon- Miss State
Dexter McCluster- Ole Miss
Toby Gerhart- Stanford
Ben Tate- Auburn
Jonathon Dwyer- GT
LeGarrette Blount- Oregon
To name a few. McCluster is my personal favorite. But that is based on watching his Cotton Bowl performance and youtube highlights. With BJ and AB still (hopefully) serviceable, I think they should go with a guy that has game changing speed vice the “prototypical” back. Who do you guys like?
Agree 100% on Dexter McCluster
This kid McCluster looks like a Chris Johnson clone the way he runs. He is definitely a home-run threat and I’m assuming he’ll go in the 2nd or 3rd maybe I’m not sure.
IMO, we can’t afford to take Spiller in the 1st, and he probably won’t even be there with teams like the Redskins and Seahawks all with bigger ?? at RB then we have. The texans could also trade up RB in the 4th round, while going DT/Saftey/LB (maybe not in that order) in rounds 1-3. I think the highest we’ll draft a RB is the 3rd round in a best player available scenarios.
I don’t think we should cut Jacobs, However we all know he is injury prone and prob wont play 16 full games next year. But I think he can get back to form with a healthy rotation at RB like we had in 07 and 08 when Ward was here. Losing Brown and then Ware proved to be devastating to the running attack. We obviously need a 3-headed attack to succesfully execute the running game. I honestly don’t think we keep Ware OR Gartrell next year. Gartrell is probably the slowest RB in the league and I think that those of you saying we need a “home-run” should be hoping we cut him ASAP. Assuming we draft a RB, Gartrell will be gone.
Awaiting the draft :/
by I_Formation27 on Jan 15, 2010 10:37 AM EST up reply actions
And when KG calls his number for a draw on 3rd and forever ...
we can all go “what kind of McCluster-f@#k was that ?”
if the Giants get rid of Jacobs
Blount might not be a bad pick, assuming his attitude issues knock him down a few rounds.
2009 Did Not Happen
That's interesting
Though I don’t think we should cut Jacobs, if they ddogo that route, I could def see us getting Blount at a value pick assuming he falls back in the draft. He’s the same type of runner, minus the injuries. He’s also a lot fresher than the other backs in the draft after missing all that time due to suspension.
And just like Jacobs, he thinks he’s a boxer!
Awaiting the draft :/
by I_Formation27 on Jan 15, 2010 11:09 AM EST up reply actions
Name to look out for is
Ben Tate.
If they really are sold on a bunch of defensive players in teh first few rounds, Tate should be there in teh middle rounds.
He’s very ..very fast and pretty big.
…tho, you forgot Ryan Matthews. Overall as far as power, speed, receiving (i read he’s got good hands but not many receptions)..the total package, Matthews might be the best overall back in the draft.
How come China can't vote David Lee for All-Star?
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 15, 2010 12:16 PM EST up reply actions
Blount might even be a UDFA...
Gerhart looks pretty good, Stafon Johnson from a crowded USC in the 7th or UDFA, Keilan Williams, Keith Toston, Chris Brown, or even if we wanted a returner only in Brandon James (FLA) in the 6th/7th
Opus smart , lascivio magis , intereo gauisus...
I like those RBs
In fact, I’m getting more and more psyched on Toby Gerhart. I doubt he’ll be there for us, but you never ever know. Draft day is so weird. Dexter McCluster (or Brandon James of Florida) would be a really exciting pickup, too. And I’ve gone on and on about Blount.
Regarding our current backs, I think Ed summed it up well. I like them both, but worry about how they’ll hold up. They both – particularly Bradshaw – run with such disregard for their bodies that they could be in the HOF, or be done tomorrow. I will say I think the OL play slipped a bit this year, which really hurt BJ.
I left my swagger in my other pants.
only thing with Blount
is that he’s been overweight, suspended for missing workout sessions, punched a Boise St. player and restrained from attacking fans…don’t think TC or JR would like that…
Opus smart , lascivio magis , intereo gauisus...
Blount could be a good 6th or 7th round pick
If we cut Jacobs. They are both the same kind of players so theres no point in having both on the roster
by mclaren_is_the_best on Jan 15, 2010 3:35 PM EST up reply actions
Thing is...
The Giants generally do a good job of vetting players before they draft ‘em. If Blount has an attitude, fuggedaboudit. And yes, he’s similar to Jacobs, but I’m assuming that Jacobs is on the downslope.
I left my swagger in my other pants.
he will most likely be..
a UDFA…with his off field antics and on field stupidity… not worth a pick in many teams’ eyes… critics have him not being drafted… and with not a better stats than any of the later round draft candidates…why waste that pick on him
Opus smart , lascivio magis , intereo gauisus...
Backwards Brandon
Anyone else notice how the progression of Jacobs seems to be going backwards? I know we had blocking issues this season but he doesn’t seem to be learning anything. Running backs normally get smarter as they gain more experience. He seems to shuffle his feet and be more hesitant than he ever was. And don’t you remember him being faster than he is now? There were sooo many plays this past season that he got tackled for no gain or a loss and I said to myself – " Man if that was Bradshaw thats a first down" or “If that was Bradshaw thats a touchdown”. I’m torn on the issue of keeping jacobs or not – I just wish he would see the hole and plow through it like the guy that used to scare defenses. Who knows if he will ever be that guy again.
by Big Blue Phatty on Jan 15, 2010 9:48 AM EST reply actions
Surgeries
Until we get more info on how Bradshaw, Jacobs and Brown come out of rehab after Surgery we won’t know what we have. So I agree with the priority given to the RB position.. We should focus the upcoming draft on LB and Safety in rounds 1-3 and look for sleepers at DT/OL/RB after that.
Of course we could also add via Free Agency but my gut says that after last year J. Reese may be a little hesitant to pull the trigger this year…
home run threat.....
We need a home run threat on offense. if spiller is there I would take him. I love AB, I just think he is injury prone. Just my 2 cents
by rumble27 on Jan 15, 2010 9:53 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Home run threat
There is no-telling how Brown comes back from his surgery but he was in the top 3 in the 40 at the combines last year and was faster than wells.. He has the potential for home run threat.
No way I would cut Jacobs. The OL play was sub par this year and Hedgecock wasnt as effective with his shoulder injury not to mention BJac had a minor knee issue. Hedgecock and BJ get healthy and we improve the OL and I am fine with him. I do believe we need depth behind BJac and AB. Maybe Gerhardt. He will be available in rd 3 or 4 depending on what he does at the combine. Or maybe a Ryan Matthews from Fresno State. With all the holes on D drafting a RB in the first 2 rds cant be justified IMHO.
"The OL play was sub par this year "
Couldn’t agree with you more. I hate to compare our O-Line to the Jets, I really do, but when you watch their running game you can see how effective it is. Those Guards and Tackles are constantly blowing guys off the line to create holes. The O-line just didn’t execute this year. If we don’t get better there it really doesn’t matter which RB we draft.
Awaiting the draft :/
by I_Formation27 on Jan 15, 2010 10:46 AM EST up reply actions
Use of the backs
I a little off subject of analysing current players at the position, but i hope TC and KG address the issue of having the best back on the field in particular game situations. It was an issue this past season running certain plays when a guy on the sidelines would have been better suited to the situation and play called. I really don’t like the idea of having KG tell the rb coach, give BJ x number of carries and give AB x number of carries and then being totally hands-off during the game. Similar to the issues the D had this year, I want to see a better job of making adjustments and decisions within the game and not just talking about it after the fact.
agreed
I don’t see rb as a major issue,but I’m not against draftin 1 in the early rounds if the value isn’t ther at a need position…I also don’t think db is that great a need…we have good depth & CB..saftey is rather shaky…but good front 7 play makes ur DB’s look better ! So I wld hope we go dt/lb/ol or a game changer with our 1st 3 picks…
i dunno maybe I just like the colors
by Mr.Williams on Jan 15, 2010 11:07 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Spiller
Everyone agrees that the defense at S and LB especially needs help. However, someone with the talent of a Spiller is rarely available. Because of his game changing ability, his offense could be great enough to be an indirect help to the defense. There are some defensive players that are able to help the offense(LT anyone?) and the same can be true for an offensive player. The overall effect a player may have on the entire team should be a consideration.
Cutting BJ
is a financial decision.
We do not KNOW he will return to form and if he does not he is a payroll liability.
I personally like the guy, think he has passion and will get healthy, adjust and return to form. If the GMen make the assessment that he is not likely to be the back he was and cut him I would understand that. They know more ( or I would hope so).
AB @ 18 carries per game? Like Ed says – we do not know that either but I would expect he could.
But one scenario says we cut BJ, make AB the feature with Brown as #2. AB gets hurt again and now you have Brown recovering from surgery and playing too many snaps with Johnson as the back up?
Hmmmmm
finance is an argument against a 1st rd back
If next year is uncapped and they cut Jacobs to save money, they’re not drafting another back in the 1st round, period. The guaranteed money in a first round contract would defeat the purpose of cutting BJ.
What if scenario, for the anti draft Spiller section
Assuming that LB and S are the priorities here, what if any of those players that we covet are gone, which may push Spiller down? At the same time, know one is willing to trade up with us, because their value isn’t there. So what are the Giants to do here? Take the BPA from either LB or S positions?
For instance, LB Spikes and S Mays will probably be there, but are they good value at #15? I doubt it. Even if we were to look at other positions of concern, we would be looking at 3rd-5th ranked players from their positions too. Not much value there. So, everything reverts back to Spiller, a top-10 talent sitting at #15, but maybe we should reach elsewhere?
that's what I'm saying...
if there’s not a player there that JR feels that either wouldn’t be there in round 2…or there’s a player he’s got targeted for round 2..or someone like Spiller or even Jahvid Best is so far and away the BPA…you gotta draft him.
RB is a need. Its big questionmark.
People wanna yap about how the WR position probably is the best its ever been for the Giants…well, name a single RB that had the type of HR capability that Best or Spiller have?
I won’t even wait…cuz they’ve NEVER had that.
Jacbos, Bradshaw will never be healthy for a season. NEVER. You need that 3rd back…who’s equal or better in caliber to these guys.
Spiller could be that dude. He could even replace them outright if he really does show that CJ type ability.
How come China can't vote David Lee for All-Star?
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 15, 2010 12:21 PM EST up reply actions
Committee
Thomas Jones aside, few NFL running backs go an entire season without getting nicked up. That is why a team needs two B/B+ or better quality backs.
FB, unless you know something we all do not I would disagree on BJ and AB not being an adequate tandem AS LONG AS you have a strong third option. Brown may or may not be that guy.
So no, RB is not a big questionmark OR a big need. At least until we know more.
The GMen need not, should not, draft a RB in Round #1 unless:
- something changes, or
- a wild opportunity shows up at #15.
I hope I don't know anything anyone else does.
I mean..am I the only one that realized that Jacobs and Bradshaw were average in 2010?
They were hurt all year. Name one year when both weren’t hurt?
These guys are always hurt.
Even as a committee….they’ve gotten hurt.
I keep saying it..but Andre Brown…an Achilles injury is no joke and he’ll probably never be the same…there’s no guarantee he makes the squad.
DJ Ware didn’t do anything when given a chance.
Gartrell….who knows, maybe.
…hell yea, there’s a big need there.
And a wild opportunity is a guy who has all world quickness and speed…like CJ Spiller.
The Giants have never had anything resembling a speed talent like this on their team.
How come China can't vote David Lee for All-Star?
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 15, 2010 3:00 PM EST up reply actions
5'11" and 195
Bradshaw, Jacobs, and Ware all got hurt this year. How long is Spiller going to last in the NFC East?
Chris Johnson is smaller then that...
So is Jamaal Charles who had a good year in his first year.
Being bigger doesn’t mean you’ll hold up.
Bradshaw is 5"9 195…but plays bigger.
How come China can't vote David Lee for All-Star?
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 15, 2010 4:27 PM EST up reply actions
And sometimes those guys like Sproles ...
are tough to put a real hit on.
With Jacobs the key is having a hole, getting up a head of steam and being able to “LaRon” ore “Urlacher” a smaller DB or LB.
Otherwise, he’s standing upright, a big target, and gets hurt.
It comes down to being the “bug” or the “windshield”.
Also..
Spiller’s speed makes AB look like he’s standing in the dust.
I mean…remember when the Giants could run all those screens with Tiki?
Well…Spiller’s good at it. He’s excellent at running the wheel route too out of the backfield.
Oh yea…He’s a GOOD BLOCKER too!
Complete package for a RB. Anyone remember when the Vikings picked AP when they had Chester Taylor there? He was a very good RB.
I know the Giants could get away with a healthy Jacobs and AB….and they will be there.
These guys aren’t game breakers. To even say Spiller is like Felix Jones is an understatement..cuz he’s faster then Felix Jones. He’s a better all around back then Felix Jones.
…..**I mean, I am just arguing why Spiller in round 1 is an option and should not be overlooked.
If I was doing a mock…and someone like Earl Thomas was there…I’d probably say pick him. Maybe even Dan Williams, Brian Price, or especially Rolando McClain.
But I’m not putting these guys in order, just a bunch of names that need to be looked at.
And Spiller’s right in there.
If JR has Spiller as the #1 player rated on his board….why reach for a defensive player?
Fewell can make excellent players out of average talents. Mike Johnson will be good again. One of the UDFA’s that looked so good in camp…maybe a good player.
There’s always the 2-7th rounds…in JR I still trust.
In round one…if the Giants can find a superstar talent…why the hell not?
How come China can't vote David Lee for All-Star?
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 15, 2010 4:42 PM EST up reply actions
I would definitely agree ...
to take an impact player @ # 15, or trade down. I just hope it’s a LB vs. a RB. If Spiller is the Adrian Peterson type, then who is the Urlacher / Ray Lewis type available ?
If none, nothing wrong with trading down in a deep draft.
Spiller compares to Reggie Bush
Spiller’s actually a little smaller. After his rookie season, Bush has averaged 12 games a year and has a career average of 4 yards a carry. Don’t waste a 1st round pick on this guy.
So who do you waste a pick on then
If our other targets are gone? Someone who projects late first or early second? I’m not understanding some of the math!
No value at the pick?
…then trade down. I don’t think Spiller is worth it, because i don’t even see him as starting over BJ and AB. If our bigger priorities, LB S DT, aren’t there then trade down.
We pick 15 so it's unlikely that all good LB S and DT are taken.
And if they are then someone else worthwhile might fall to us. Someone like Okung or another of the elite OT’s in the draft.
I’d rather draft OT than RB.
by mclaren_is_the_best on Jan 15, 2010 4:03 PM EST up reply actions
What about trading up?
Osi and the 15th pick to get someone like Berry.
I wish....
but that’s a pipe dream…
How come China can't vote David Lee for All-Star?
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 15, 2010 5:56 PM EST up reply actions
If you would look at my scenario
And all else fails, what to do? The value at pick #15 and who might be available may differ for those teams below the Giants. I’m trying to create a scenario where there is no other alternative with who is available vs. a team need. It’s really easy to say to trade down, but you need another suitor to do so. Thats my basis of this.
But if people want to draft on need alone, then we might as well put names in a hat and pull names!
Just for the record, i’m not advocating that we should draft Spiller, but he should be looked at with consideration if others are gone!
No, your not the only one
I said it awhile back, that we should explore ideas about our RB’s. I just find it hard to believe that people would ignore Spiller if he was available, when and or if our other covet’s were not there. In the grand scheme of things, thats how you stock your roster full of mediocrity if your strictly going off of needs in the first couple of rounds.
Hell no
It is a need but not a big one in the 2010 Giants’s scheme of things. Other things like LB are a bigger need.
A healthy ( to start) BJ and AB is better than many NFL team running attacks.
Your point about Brown is well taken – an Achilles is serious for a RB and I have no feel for what Johnson may be capable of so drafting a third back in round 4-7 makes sense.
And the reason speed has been a “nice to have” at RB and not a “gotta have” is simple – weather. In the postseason in NJ the weather can negate speed and if that is your sole way of being productive – then no, a speed back remains a “nice to have”.
The RB tandem the Giants have now MAY be just fine as long as they return to form and one of them can carry the load every Sunday. The third back is a safety blanket.
Having said that, the Giants may decide BJ can no longer cut it and cut HIM. Until I see that from the Giants he is my back for 2010, healthy, used properly and pissed off!
I cant see using a first round pick on a RB
Maybe I am still recovering from the Ron Dayne and Tyrone Wheatley picks.also thought to be studs
But overall the run game was far better than our defense and we had a pretty good passing game too.
going into camp we still have 2 fourth round runningbacks from the 2009 draft with Brown and Johnson a little insurance later in the draft sure,
but not a first rounder
Also I believe one of the reasons Fewell picked the Giants over the Bears was our comittment to rebuild our D with his input, and the carrot dangling out there could be defensive first and second round picks
You can see a lot just by observing-Yogi Berra
here's something to ease the mind...
Spiller is as far away from a between the tackles, slow, plodding Big 10 Large RB as you can possibly get.
SEC and he still looked lightening fast. The only guy faster might have been his teammate Jacoby Ford (who might be a nice 6-7th round KR/PR prospect).
Speed dammit.
Giants need speed.
How come China can't vote David Lee for All-Star?
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 15, 2010 3:03 PM EST up reply actions
Another way to look at it
is that a top back like Spiller could make the difference in a close game. However, four of the Giants’ games were blowouts; having a Spiller would not have mattered. They have to improve the defense enough to at least make those games close again.
Mickey C
I mentioned above...
Brandon James from Florida can be a really good pick up at 6-7th round, w/o sacrificing a top pick…he looks like he will be a very good KR/PR..and he’s fast (maybe not Spiller-fast, but few are) and he’s got TDs as a PR and KR this past season
Opus smart , lascivio magis , intereo gauisus...
For anyone who wants a trip down memory lane
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5LQ4SJBPRA shows earth wind and fire in its prime. 3 things that stood out:
1 – Dont tell me the big boy isn’t quick enough to break it to the outside. i counted 6 instances of outside rushes going for big gains, where in he was outrunning people to hit that corner. Maybe he lost a step this season(altho the second dallas game this year would show that to be false) but i think big boy is capable of any type of run you need him to do.
2 – I think AB’s feet are a different entity, attached to his body. it’s like they know what they’re doing before his body does. watch 2:52 into it, see how he ends the run? it’s like his body said “hey why don’t you warn me first next time?” Can’t count how many times this season he’s tackled himself in the same manner.
3 – Boy do i miss D.Ward. if big boy and ahmad got together and had a love child(yuck), his name would be derrick ward. fast and strong, a poorer man’s A.Pete.
If you miss D Ward,
I think you’ve got to look at LeGarette Blount. He seems like D Ward 2.0 to me.
I left my swagger in my other pants.
The guy who punched the Boise State player in the face?
AND sucked all year? No thank you.
Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
by CasanovaWong on Jan 15, 2010 1:55 PM EST up reply actions
more like a mini Jacobs.
He has no where near that Swiss army knife capability that D.Ward had.
How come China can't vote David Lee for All-Star?
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 15, 2010 3:01 PM EST up reply actions
Spillers reminds me of a couple of players..Jackson ans Spoorles..He a bit bigger but I love a back that can
Hide behind the OL and then burst out..Plus he has Kick return capability and he can catch..This guy is a nightmare for defenders..If he’s available I’d take him.
One thing to remember ...
is that the RB situation doesn’t exist in a vacuum. If the OL had not dropped off noticably in 2009, and multiple injuries hadn’t occured at RB, we’d probably feel it was an O.K. group heading into next season. An OL that doesn’t open holes makes good RB’s look bad.
Also, if you have no passing threats, the D can load the box and it’s tough for any team’s OL and RB’s to look good. Fortunately, our WR and passing game is a strength, so that is why I don’t see a major need early in the draft anywhere on O.
Same is true for the D. The DL is either good or sucks on their own, since nothing in front of them is either good or bad and causing extra problems (except the other team). A good batch of LB’s can look bad if the DL sucks, and the DB’s can blow if the front 7 is no good.
Personally, I think the DL may be O.K. next year if healthy. We’ve got 6 guys that are solid to good. Don’t feel the same about the LB’s other than the potential in Sintim (although I’m not sure if he is a down rusher or a stand-up LB) and maybe Boley if it was injuries last year. I really hope that’s where we go in Round 1 (and yes, at # 15 we should expect one that can make an impact in 2010, or I say trade down). DB’s turn on the S position and KP. Not too many teams have 3 corners as good as CW, TT and AR, so I can’t see going CB in the draft early either.
COMPARE...
CJ SPILLER IS LIKE CHRIS JOHNSON. THE FIRST YRS HE WILL SPLIT CARRIES THE NEXT YRS HE WILL BE THE FEATURE BACK. I WOULD BE UPSET IF WE PASSED ON THIS OPP. BUT I WOULD BE SATISFIED IF WE PICK UP J.BEST IN THE LATER ROUNDS AND STILL TOOK CARE OF SOME NEEDS IN THE FIRST ROUND AND SECOND
by rumble27 on Jan 15, 2010 4:28 PM EST via mobile reply actions
ENOUGH WITH THE SPILLER.
There is no freaking way we’re getting Spiller! Why are we talking about him? Kiper has him ranked 14. We pick 15th, and if we take a back in the first round, I will pull an Elvis and shoot my television.
I agree we need speed. But not as badly as we need defense.
I left my swagger in my other pants.
cuz Kiper is right all the time?
I’ve seen Spiller going to the Browns at #7.
There’s no way we’re getting McClain, but that’s an easy argument.
…If Spiller’s there..I hope you just have a cathode tube TV and are planning to get a Plasma…cuz I think Reese will grab him.
He would’ve taken Knowshown Moreno last year, even tho everyone was yelling for him to take a WR.
JR operates by BPA.
If Spiller’s BPA, I think he’ll get him.
I don’t wanna here…they can be successful with a later round RB.
Of course they can……..but that’s a lesser talent.
A RB with track star speed? Who’s a football player first and track star second?
For real? On the NY Football Giants? When has that ever happened?
Trust in JR to draft the middle rounds. Trust in Fewell to coach em up.
…..trust in Spiller to make the Giants a scary team in the BEast.
How come China can't vote David Lee for All-Star?
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 15, 2010 5:15 PM EST up reply actions
what does he have to do with ANYTHING?
the only thing he has in common with Spiller is that they play RB.
How come China can't vote David Lee for All-Star?
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 15, 2010 5:47 PM EST up reply actions
My point is
Would I like Spiller? Hell yea!! But we had a Defense that gave up 427 points last year
That needs fixin
Wheatley was a track star at Michigan and a helluva RB but a complete bust for the Giants
I dont think Spiller will be a bust but ,I didnt think wheatley or Dayne would be either
Lets fix whats broken first and that is our Defense
You can see a lot just by observing-Yogi Berra
Wheatley was a track star at Michigan?
really.
They must’ve not won much in track….
And the Giants pretty much DID fix the defense….they got a DC that has a clue.
How come China can't vote David Lee for All-Star?
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 15, 2010 9:16 PM EST up reply actions
Too bad the DC can’t sack the QB or tackle Jonathan Stewart
by mclaren_is_the_best on Jan 15, 2010 9:55 PM EST up reply actions
really?
How come China can't vote David Lee for All-Star?
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 15, 2010 10:16 PM EST up reply actions
No, the Browns are taking Crabtree ...
oh, wait … last year’s subscription to Kiper … nevermind.
good thing he didn’t take moreno cuz he blows.
by mclaren_is_the_best on Jan 15, 2010 5:38 PM EST up reply actions
coulda fooled the Giants....
How come China can't vote David Lee for All-Star?
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 15, 2010 5:48 PM EST up reply actions
later round RBs
doesn’t necessarily translate to lesser talent…sometimes it’s just they didn’t show enough for circumstances outside their control…crowded backfield, less playing time b/c of other things, etc.
Opus smart , lascivio magis , intereo gauisus...
Exactly
We need speed
on the Defense
its called Rolando
You can see a lot just by observing-Yogi Berra
We need speed period
Defense offense special teams. We need the BPA if it’s spiller, Thomas, price or mcclain so be it. But these views could change via FA. So we wait for the pies to lose in the meantime .
Replying to Spiller talk
If our goal is to try to win every game 49-48 then okay go ahead and take Spiller with our #1 for his game breaking ability. If we have to punt we know the game is over. IMO we can win a SB with BJ, AB and Brown (or late round pick) if we do some serious upgrades to the D through FA and draft. Don’t we have Eli and a solid receiving core? Offense is not a problem and we don’t have to rank #1 in every offensive category in the league. Let’s fix the D. Spiller is the sexy pick, not the right pick.
by NY Football Giants on Jan 15, 2010 9:57 PM EST reply actions
+1
agree…Spiller looks really tempting & KG would love a guy like that… but if it hinders the Giants from picking up a quality first round pick for any part of the Defense, then I say forget it! any other year, I would be all for it…if our Defense didn’t stink it up like I’ve never seen them do before
Opus smart , lascivio magis , intereo gauisus...
I still maintain that alot of our problems came from poor coaching and poor training...
We know our secondary is a cluster-fk.. and I agree that defense needs serious focus first and foremost..We more than likely be watching Spillers holding up another teams Jersey long before we pick anyway, but if he somehow is still there we have to grab him. We also need to start thinking about the O-line in the draft…They also as I have been saying need to focus on training..We had too many pull injuries and that cost us big time..Look at Boley and Canty?..they were never hurt until they showed up at our mash unit..
thank you Bobbi....
Been trying to say that…
Many of our problems I think are gonna be shored up with a new defensive mind and some better health luck…the talent’s there, always was.
Yes, there’s holes in the S, LB, DT’s. But there’s no reason to pigeon hole that first rounder to one of these just cuz its such a big need.
Fewell’s made an art of turning 3-5th round DB’s and even DT’s into Pro Bowl caliber players….
Why not let JR work his mid-draft magic, draft someone like Spiller (of course, like you say, if he’s there) then draft a speedy LB in round 2 like Darryl Washington…then go after a couple of DB’s and DL’s?
Of course, maybe throw in a OL or 2 in there.
How come China can't vote David Lee for All-Star?
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 16, 2010 9:08 AM EST up reply actions
That would work
From round 2 until the end of the draft, go all defense with an OL in there. 5 defensive players, an OL and Spiller being icing on the cake! It’s feasible to say that 3/5 of the defensive players would pan out, the OL wouldn’t have to start immediately and Spiller’s presence could actually have an effect on Ware, Brown or Hixon’s roster spot!
Yep I totally agree here
If Rolando is gone and we can get spiller and Daryl Washington I’m all for it
LBs
So do Bobbi and Free think that our LBs are okay and that Fewell will make Blackburn, Clark, etc. NFL starting caliber players? Let’s get real. My hypothetical question is that if McClain and Spiller are both on the board, who do we take? This is not a trick question. Again, this is coming from someone who lives in ACC country and loves Spiller although I am a UVA alum. Let’s not forget who calls our plays and could potentially sabotage Spiller’s career as well.
by NY Football Giants on Jan 16, 2010 12:57 PM EST up reply actions
I don't think anyone on here's saying that.
I know I’m assuming McClain’s off the board…WAAAY off the board.
Of course take McClain with the first pick if he’s there.
I’m actually not saying that Spiller is the pick.
I’m saying the idea of drafting Spiller is a relevant one and that he needs to be kept in the mix…
…its all cuz people are completely throwing out the idea based on teh “defense sucks, draft defense” idea.
That’s just flat out a bad idea. At least, in the first round or 2.
And what does Gilbride have to do with this? Sabotage his career? Gilbride’s playcalling didn’t hurt Jacobs and Derrick Ward from combining for over 2000 yards last year did it?
Actually, a versatile RB like Spiller would be what the Giants need going forward. Spiller is more of a Swiss Army type RB, kinda like Ward (not as big, but 50x as fast).
The LB’s are not OK. They need to draft talent. Aside from Rolando McClain, there IS NOT ONE SINGLE MLB, worthy of a 1st round pick.
How come China can't vote David Lee for All-Star?
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 16, 2010 1:19 PM EST up reply actions
KG
Please do not give KG credit for BJ and Ward’s 1000 yard seasons. We have a powerful offense in spite of KG, not because of him. OL, QB, RB is why we were successful. We can’t blame the players for poor blame and praise the coordinators when we do well (and just the opposite is true) He has gotten better, which is sad to be proud about since he’s an NFL OC, but his offenses have finished at the bottom of the redzone consistently over the last 4 years. My point is taking a stud on offense doesn’t mean he’ll pan out when you have KG at the helm.
I do agree that we don’t have to go defense with our first pick if all of the studs are gone, but I don’t think that will be the case after looking at many mock drafts. There’s almost a guarantee that a game changing defensive player will be available at 15. We shall see …
by NY Football Giants on Jan 16, 2010 2:45 PM EST up reply actions
I find blame for Gilbride whether there's good or bad...
Why not give him any credit for the running in 2008?
He only calls the plays…its the player who execute. If he’s calling running plays and they are working..which he was, then what else does he have to do?
He’s as much to credit of the offenses success as any coordinator.
I think the Giants have more talent then Gilbride allows for…but that’s nit-picking as the offense the past few years has been pretty good.
How come China can't vote David Lee for All-Star?
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 16, 2010 2:52 PM EST up reply actions
Also....
Aren’t Aaron Ross and I guess KP and Kiwi (tho 32nd pick is borderline 2nd rounder for both..) the only 1st round picks on the defense?
Not saying that’s the way to go…but Tuck’s a 3rd rounder, Webster and Osi are 2nd rounders, Cofield’s a 4th rounder….even the players that they’ve signed as FA’s are former later round picks.
Draft a gamebreaker, the player with the best chance of being a star, with the #15 pick.
Last year…while I don’t believe what he said…JR said that Nicks was the BPA, but he fit a need too. Nicks is a gamebreaker, as much a star as any player picked at his spot.
2-7th round picks…that’s where you can focus more on need, at least the Giants can cuz they don’t need an entire new team.
1st round…draft the best player available. If that’s Spiller…get him. IF that’s Brian Price, Morgan Burnett, Earl Thomas…etc, get them.
So uh…lets get real. This is all about BPA…not just draft a RB. If there’s a BPA on the board, take him (unless its a QB or WR or TE….)
How come China can't vote David Lee for All-Star?
by FreeBradshaw on Jan 16, 2010 1:25 PM EST up reply actions
I agree if AB is healthy and did bust himself all to hell this year
He sure has exhibited toughness that you rarely see..any other back in the league would have sat out..This guy is tough..and why are we always worried about giving a back the damn ball more than 12-15 times a game?..Give it them 25 times they love that shit..gets their motors running in high gear…Shit Sproles carries the ball more than our guys do, and he is a little, fast piss-ant…He’s about 5’8" if you put him on a medieval stretching torture machine..With the exception of AB, our guys carry the ball 10 times and their out with frigging hang-nail injuries.
DC Greg Williams
"He’s crazy, always talking, telling you something, non-stop," said Hargrove, who isn’t far removed from that himself. "Yeah, he had to tell me one day to just stop talking because me and him, it just never stopped. He said we couldn’t get nothing done if one of us didn’t shut up."
That’s a DC right there..
The thing about the draft is
you have to take play makers almost regardless of position. If you pass up a play maker at RB in the 3rd or 4th round to grab a lesser player at a need position, the next thing you know you have a roster of lesser players and your team isn’t very good. With their 1st pick they are going to get a very good player and the 2nd too. Then the real work starts. Get 2 or 3 more in the later rounds and some guys that can help on specials and they’ll get this thing turned around quickly.
Draft a RB
I vote we draft CJ Spiller in 1st round. The guy has the break away speed Brandon Jacobs can only dream about and is more durable than Ahmad Bradshaw. If he is still on the board at #15 I say Reese needs to pull the trigger.
Was there a drop-off in the OL?
BJ had a big decline but AB with injuries was about the same. CJ Spiller is the rare gamebreaker with speed out of the backfield Eli needs. The OL had to focus on passblocking being 3TDs down early in almost every game in the second half. BJ ?, AB?. Cris Johnson anyone?
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