New York Giants should look to deal Sinorice Moss
by Ed Valentine on Aug 28, 2009 7:00 AM EDT
in News
71 comments
It is time for the New York Giants to trade Sinorice Moss. In fact, I know a lot of you would say it is past time for that to happen.
Moss has had a pretty good pre-season. He did well during camp at UAlbany, especially early on. When it comes right down to it, though, the diminutive fourth-year wide receiver from the University of Miami is looking at another season without a real role on this team.
That's been the case for the 5-foot-8, 185-pound speedster ever since his rookie year. He has never been able to translate the blinding speed and good hands into production on the field, and has just 38 catches over three seasons. He has also returned 18 kickoffs, with only marginal success.
From the looks of things, he is staring at the same type of season again -- meaning, being an afterthought.
At receiver, Domenik Hixon and Steve Smith are penciled in as starters. Moss was listed as third receiver when training camp began, but that seems more like it was a courtesy extended to a veteran who has paid his dues.
Mario Manningham seems to be the No. 3 guy right now. The Giants also seem determined to move No. 1 pick Hakeem Nicks up the ladder as quickly as they can. At the first sign he was fully healed from his training camp hamstring woes, Nicks began getting some reps with Eli Manning. Right now, my guess is he is No. 4.
At best, that makes Moss No. 5. And what sense does it make for the Giants to allow Moss, who can make some plays but has obvious physical limitations, to take opportunities away from either Nicks or the sensational third-round pick, Ramses Barden? To me, none.
Looking even further down the list, Derek Hagan has had a better camp than Moss and at 6-2, 215 probably has more to offer as a pass-catching target. Besides, the only real difference between Hagan (53 catches in three years with Miami) is that the Giants drafted Moss and the Dolphins drafted Hagan.
As a return guy, Moss has never shown the explosive big-play ability you might think his speed would lead to. Right now, he is probably the backup punt returner to Manningham and part of a kickoff return rotation with Danny Ware, Ahmad Bradshaw and maybe even Nicks or Hixon.
So, that would make Moss a backup kick returner and spare part wide receiver. Again.
I know there are teams out there hunting for wide receiver help. Saturday's opponent, the New York Jets, is one. The Baltimore Ravens are another.
Please don't harbor the illusion that General Manager Jerry Reese could get a useful player, like a backup offensive lineman, for Moss. Those kinds of trades don't go down in the NFL at this time of year. What Reese probably could get is a draft pick, say anywhere from the 5th to the 7th round.
That might not seem like a lot, but stockpiling draft picks in return for players you probably can't use is always a good idea. And we know Reese has had a habit of striking gold with some of those late picks.
Getting himself dealt somewhere might be the best thing Moss ever does for the Giants. And it might be good for his career, too.
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Keep Hagen
Dump Moss – for anything you can get. He takes a roster spot that could be better used.
Hey Ed – Can Alford go on PUP if he avoids surgery? He would miss the first six games?
by MSP Giant on Aug 28, 2009 7:48 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I believe..
There are srict rules in place regarding PUP vs IR..based on diagnosis on the extent of an injury. I haven’t heard any new news on Alford’s injury. I agree with trying to get something for Moss, but as I stated in the following comment, I believe teams are going to wait and see who gets cut loose prior to making any deals.
by Bobbiblue on Aug 28, 2009 8:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No
You have to be on PUP when training camp starts. You can’t be placed there after that.
by Ed Valentine on Aug 28, 2009 8:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh thanks for the clarification Ed..I wasn't sure..
and yes the IR rules should be changed.
by Bobbiblue on Aug 28, 2009 9:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Alford
Despite the apparent long-term seriousness of his injury, I have a suspicion that the Giants medical staff feels that optimally, he could be back late in the season, which could provide a boost. The team seemed optimistic at the time despite the severity of it. So maybe we will get to see this insane rotation at its full complement … for Christmas.
You play to win the game!
by Simms-McConkey on Aug 28, 2009 8:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Problem is
How long can you hold a roster spot, especially if other guys get banged up. This is why I would love the IR rule done away with, or modified.
by Ed Valentine on Aug 28, 2009 9:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well,
I let my hopefulness get in the way of what I really knew all along. Torn ACL/MCL is not a 12-week recovery. Hell, it’s not a 20-week recovery. Just read this in a G/J preview:
By Tony Moss, NFL Editor — (Sports Network)
… Tom Coughlin’s team lost defensive tackle Jay Alford, who played in all 16 games a year ago, with a season-ending knee injury, and the team will try to avoid similar injuries against the Jets.
You play to win the game!
by Simms-McConkey on Aug 28, 2009 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
we will have a better idea in a week...
after he suffered the injury the giants said that they would let him rest and do strengthening exercises and than re evaluate in 2 weeks time. So I’m sure nothing much has changed since the Chicago game….
by andiamo708 on Aug 28, 2009 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's probably the best route, too.
Let’s just wait and see what the professionals say. If he’s ready to play at the end of the season, he’ll def be welcomed into the rotations that was very tired at last year’s close. But if he’s not, then let’s get this young stud healthy for our continued dominance for year’s to come.
by YankeeDudeL on Aug 28, 2009 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
honestly...
I wouldn’t expect to see Alford back this year. Ed pointed it out already…to not IR him and lose a spot on the roster could be a big mistake. Especially considering Canty is dealing with this hamstring injury too.
Also, like you said, we still have to remember that JA is a young guy w/ solid experience and he’ll be a asset for years to come. Robbins and Bernard are no spring chickens.
And i think the combination of Canty, Cofield, and Alford could be very successful in the next few years.
by andiamo708 on Aug 28, 2009 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree wholeheartedly, Ed
I stated that yesterday..They should try get to a draft pick for him..His time with the Giants has not produced any decent results. I think he has enough talent to get at least a 6 or 7th round draft pick vs. flat out cutting him..Then again, teams are getting to the point where they are going to sit back and wait for the fallout from the paring down to 53 process before making moves or deals..and certainly we could never expect to get O-line help in return for a guy who hasn’t proven himself on the field.
by Bobbiblue on Aug 28, 2009 7:49 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
That would put Tyree
back in the mix as 7th WR, or an outside chance of knocking Hagan out as 6th if he can show some flash on special teams in the next 2 games.
But I don’t see them going with 7 WR with so many banged up interior guys. They’ll want some more depth there. And to that I say WE WANT GREY! WE WANT GREY!
by Jaybat on Aug 28, 2009 8:44 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree with this analysis
but I only wish Reese had come to this conclusion sooner, so that he could have been moved when he had more value. At least he helped to foster some competition. I have a feeling teams will just wait for the Giants to cut him, then scoop him up as a free agent, if needed.
by rzor on Aug 28, 2009 9:09 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think he still has value
enough to to trade well at least. And he actually has a particular value to the Giants. If he made the team he’d be near the bottom fo the depth chart. But what if Eli goes down (I’m typing my nightmare here) and Carr has to start several games? Moss shoots right up the chart as Carr’s apparent favorite target.
Ed maybe this hasn’t been the case in camp but I know last year in practices and whenever Carr threw in games, Moss was his guy.
by Jaybat on Aug 28, 2009 9:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No way anyone trades for Sinorice Moss. None.
We’re in a very similar situation in Philly with an overload of decent receivers. In Philly we have…
Locks
DeSean Jackson
Kevin Curtis
Jason Avant
Jeremy Maclin
And then we’ll have a 3-man race for either 1 or 2 spots between Reggie Brown, Hank Baskett, and our 6th round pick (who has looked great), Brandon Gibson.
Most of us are in agreement that we’d like to trade Reggie Brown for something like a 4.
Your situation is basically a carbon copy of ours…
Locks
Domenik Hixon
Steve Smith
Hakeem Nicks
Ramses Barden
Mario Manningham
I’d say you guys are more likely to keep 5 WR’s than you are 6, but if you did keep 6, I would be in agreement that Hagan is the better player, leaving Moss on the outs.
So what’s the problem? Simply put, the Ravens/Jets (or whatever other team) would be incredibly dumb to give up anything for Brown/Moss. Here’s why…
- Camp is almost over. Had the Giants/Eagles looked to trade Moss/Brown a couple months ago, they could have had a full camp with their new team. Now, they’d be forced to play a severe game of catchup learning their new offense. This kills whatever trade value they had.
- There will be no shortage of available receivers… 53-man rosters cuts are right around the corner. The timing of trading for a guy makes no sense. Plenty of guys (Soon to be Reggie Brown, soon to be Sinorice Moss, soon to be any number of other cuts, Marvin Harrison, Matt Jones, etc.) will be available without having to give up a pick.
- But if they trade for a guy now, they have no competition from other teams trying to sign that player, right? Sure, but if you trade for a guy, you also get their contract. If you save a guy from the scrap heap, you’d have to pay him significantly less than their current deal. (Note – This is more of an issue with the Eagles and Reggie Brown’s awful 5 year deal for $21 million, than it is with Sinorice Moss’ much more manageable 4 year, $3.5 million deal.) But still, they could sign Moss for a much cheaper figure.
The Giants (and Eagles) will be forced to suck it up, take it like men, and cut former 2nd round picks.
Bye, Big Stew and JJ :(
by Bye, Dawk :( on Aug 28, 2009 9:20 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
agreed
Anyone who truly believes that any team out there is going to give a 5th or 6th round pick up for Moss is nuts. He’s shown nothing but pre-season flair and a penchant for injury since he’s come into the NFL. I can hear the scissors now… cut cut cut.
by TheyGotSquid on Aug 28, 2009 9:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You could be right
No harm in asking around and seeing if you can get anything, though.
by Ed Valentine on Aug 28, 2009 9:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No harm trying to get something...
But again, we’re at that time of the year where teams are going to sit back and wait..and I think the only way we get line help is to go after guys that are available..As for Moss and hopefully not, Hagan..the Jets and Ravens are just going to wait it out and then snatch them up.
by Bobbiblue on Aug 28, 2009 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Keep baskett
didn’t he marry that hot chick? there’s value right there
You play to win the game!
by Simms-McConkey on Aug 28, 2009 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
maybe its the pic...
but i’m not impressed. plus those colors hurt my eyes! :)
by wilddre22 on Aug 28, 2009 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I kept it PG… Google “Kendra Wilkinson,” and your opinion might change.
Bye, Big Stew and JJ :(
by Bye, Dawk :( on Aug 28, 2009 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's Hef's girl!
ah yes, she is bad. shame she’s sleeping with the enemy.
by wilddre22 on Aug 31, 2009 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it's the pic
that girl is smokin
You play to win the game!
by Simms-McConkey on Aug 28, 2009 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not gonna lie
She could make me wear green. No shame to my game.
by njgiant on Aug 28, 2009 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL!!! I don't care what colors she wears!!
They’d be lying on the floor!!
by Bobbiblue on Aug 28, 2009 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Game of bluff
Good post Bye Dawk.
The only way a trade happens if a team wants that player and is not certain he will be cut and therefore trades a 7th pick just to get him or if they are not confident that they will get him in FA!
Ed – what is the rule re the practice squad and players having to clear waivers but Moss would be a FA straight away?
Thanks and keep up the good work this site is the only way I can keep up with The Giants living in England.
by G Fan in England on Aug 28, 2009 9:28 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
As for the practice squad, Moss is ineligible because he has played a full NFL season. I don’t know the exact rule, but it’s not an option.
And even if he was eligible for the practice squad, other teams could still sign him.
Bye, Big Stew and JJ :(
by Bye, Dawk :( on Aug 28, 2009 9:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's correct
I believe it is based on the number of games on the active roster, but not sure. But, basically, you can’t put experienced guys on it.
by Ed Valentine on Aug 28, 2009 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No doubt.
You at least try.
Bye, Big Stew and JJ :(
by Bye, Dawk :( on Aug 28, 2009 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oops, somehow I replied to the wrong post.
Bye, Big Stew and JJ :(
by Bye, Dawk :( on Aug 28, 2009 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The only way a trade happens if a team wants that player and is not certain he will be cut and therefore trades a 7th pick just to get him or if they are not confident that they will get him in FA
Good point. And it’s kind of funny in that case too, because if you’re the Giants, you can’t shop Moss. You just have to sit back and hope for a call.
Bye, Big Stew and JJ :(
by Bye, Dawk :( on Aug 28, 2009 9:34 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Ryan Grant
The Giants were able to get a low pick for him, when it was obvious that either he or Derrick Ward was going to be cut. You could have said some of the same things about Grant—injured a lot, never showed anything in a real game. I think Moss could be a major success with a quarterback who is very accurate, and if I were that teams GM I might trade a low pick to get him.
by hopeforthefuture3 on Aug 28, 2009 9:46 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
True, You make a good point with Grant, however, there are 2 differences here…
- If I recall correctly (am I’m not positive on this since the Giants aren’t my team), but I think Grant had a great preseason that year, and was a young (24 at the time), budding running back. Sinorice Moss is entering his 4th year and has done nothing.
- Also, WR’s basically grow on trees. Much easier to find than RB’s.
Bye, Big Stew and JJ :(
by Bye, Dawk :( on Aug 28, 2009 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ed, lots of enthusiasm among
BBVers to trade Moss and lots of pessism re pulling it off. I honestly believe he could be a steal for the right team. As as been pointed out many times (and as recently as yesterday by someone) Eli isn’t the most accurate passer and has trouble getting the ball where Moss can catch it. The right QB might be able to. Let’s hope that’s the case. Moss didn’t contribute much for so high a draft pick. You’ve been a supporter of Moss, 57. How do you feel about this?
by blue gonz on Aug 28, 2009 9:50 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
There's that perception thing again.
Eli’s accuracy has been getting better each year and last year, he completed 60% of his throws. That number should have been higher but you know the Giants always have their share of the dropsies. When it comes to Moss, we can’t blame his lack of production on Eli’s accuarcy. The guy is always hurt and has always found himself behind some good, “healthy” recievers. If Moss were in Miami, where Pennington led the league in accuracy, his production wouldn’t change if he couldn’t stay healthy. (IMO), Sinorice will never be the reciever that Santana is.
by njgiant on Aug 28, 2009 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're right about Santana.
As for Eli, Accorsi, perhaps his greatest admirer, pointed out that his weakness was throwing the high ball. He still does it, but with less frequency. Needless to say, the high ball is scarcely a problem for a guy with Plax’s height, but impossible for diminutive Sinorice to reach. I think I remember either Ed of Garafplo talking about balls sailing out of Moss’s reach as late as this year’s training camp. (At my advanced age, it’s hard for me to remember what I remember these days.)
by blue gonz on Aug 28, 2009 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
(At my advanced age, it’s hard for me to remember what I remember these days.)
That’s a great line. I like it.
by njgiant on Aug 28, 2009 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL, George
That’s your best line in a while.
by Ed Valentine on Aug 28, 2009 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I pride myself on remembering
what i need to remember except when I forget to remember, in which case I just feggadaboutit.
by blue gonz on Aug 28, 2009 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL!!
I am getting to the point where I can’t remember what I told my wife the night before…She brings something up again in the morning and I’m like: “Duh..er, I’ll get back to you on that”..Then I walk around scratching my head trying to figure out what I told her..
by Bobbiblue on Aug 30, 2009 5:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why not trade for an OL
We are all concerned about the depth behind the starting OL.
Given the sucess at drafting over the last three years the Giants are reaching a point where they have too many draft picks in 2010 for spare roster places before we even start thinking about acquiring more picks.
So I think we should be looking at trading for a decent backup OL by offering Moss (or anyone that might have value) or one of our 2010 late picks for the right player.
by G Fan in England on Aug 28, 2009 9:56 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
O Line
I think the Giants might pick up a free agent offensive lineman. As we have discussed, there are a few veterans available who might help.
by Ed Valentine on Aug 28, 2009 9:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good post Ed...
I don’t have much to add…the comments above pretty much got it right.
Yes it will be tough to move moss but it’s worth trying. We’ve got some 7th rounders on the team now…even some guys who went un drafted.
by andiamo708 on Aug 28, 2009 10:14 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I touched on this yesterday...
if the Giants do keep Moss how are they going to give everyone enough playing time.
Smith and Hix are the starters. Mario “6” Manningham is #3. Than you got the two rooks; Barden and Nicks. Nicks is healthy and looks to be improving…he seems to be ahead of where Manningham was last year so I look for him to play this year. Barden too.
that’s only 5 guys right there. Imagine trying to work in a 6th or 7th??? They’ll end up being in the same place next year…a slew of young WR’s that haven’t had enough time on the field to prove themselves.
by andiamo708 on Aug 28, 2009 10:36 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
My Take
I agree with alot of you with regard to Moss. Who is going to even trade a 7th round pick to the Giants and JR?? Even in his short time as GM he has gotten great value from lots of his draft pcks. I just dont think Moss has the size to play WR in the NFL, yeah he is quick, fast and very agile but his lack of size is really a knock. If we can get a pick deal him….
by GiantRB27 on Aug 28, 2009 10:40 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
meh....
I doubt they get anything or much at all for him.
I really wish they’d use him, but I guess they taller guys get use first.
I think we’ll have to see what goes on in the Jets/Giants game first, the entire passing O really hasn’t gotten much run in the first 2 games.
GODZZIIIIIRRRRRRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!
by FreeBradshaw on Aug 28, 2009 11:12 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
"...doubt they can get very much...,"
My guess is JR would package him with one or two other guys (Tollefson and Wilkinson?) He should be able to get something pretty godd in return for those three, at least in terms of a future draft pick. More hopefully, for an OL, although as Ed said, he’ll probably go the FA route for one.
by blue gonz on Aug 28, 2009 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ed...I'd just like to point out
that I appreciate the fact that you write articles like this….
I go to Giants.com a lot and always read Eisen’s Insight…but I really don’t know why. While I’m a fan of Eisen and Shmeelk (more Shmeelk) I often wonder why they even have that segment. I don’t think Michael Eisen would ever admit the giants have a weakness or an area of concern.
I was just reading today and someone asked a question about Boss…very similar to the question I had asked you the other day about what is in store for Boss this year…and can we expect another 33 reception season. Obviously he answered the question in typical Michael Eisen fashion…which means he didn’t answer it at all. I’m well aware that they really can’t question certain players or coaches or executive decisions but I would like to see some bias on their part…especially Eisen.
the truth of the matter is that Boss is not a big part of this offense and so far in pre season I don’t’ see anything that would make me think things will change this year.
by andiamo708 on Aug 28, 2009 11:23 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Eisen
Fact is, Eisen works for the Giants. Giants.com has a lot of great stuff in terms of video, and access that no one else gets. But, all of it is really promotional. There is no real analysis or objectivity, which is to be expected.
by Ed Valentine on Aug 28, 2009 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know...I know...
I still would like to think that he could be a bit more objective….you know, without getting fired.
by andiamo708 on Aug 28, 2009 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Image....
Michael Eisen writing an article like this about Moss….I’d fall outta my chair.
by andiamo708 on Aug 28, 2009 11:24 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Congratulate Matt Moseley
On his new position as ESPN’s Michael Vick blogger
You play to win the game!
by Simms-McConkey on Aug 28, 2009 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You picked up on that right...
I can’t even go to ESPN anymore…
Vick arrives at the stadium…
Vick throws a pass…
Vick walks off the field and takes his helmet off…
Vick takes post game shower…
give me a break already.
by andiamo708 on Aug 28, 2009 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Where was Moseley (or the South writer)
before 2007?
Vick drowns dog …
Vick beats dog to death …
Vick electrocutes / mutilates dog …
Vick collects $100G for it
You play to win the game!
by Simms-McConkey on Aug 28, 2009 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Alas, from what we've seen to date, you're probably right.
Too bad, because he has the talent to be All-Pro.
by blue gonz on Aug 28, 2009 11:26 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
No trade likely
Bye Dawk is spot on. Can’t argue. GMen will lose Moss, Tyree, Wilkersen, Hagen and anybody else of value when they have to cut them. JR can try to trade them, but it seems very unlikely.
OL depth will come from the waiver wire for those same reasons.
Any news on Grey or Jason Whittle? Have to wonder why either are available – like maybe they have nothing left in the tank?
Great post Ed. Keep it up.
by MSP Giant on Aug 28, 2009 11:43 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
hey, we traded tim carter
lets hope for the best here.
by B-rod24 on Aug 28, 2009 11:46 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yes but
that was done in the off-season.
by brisulph on Aug 28, 2009 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But why
If there is a player the Giants want to pick up after the cuts have been made they will only have to cut a player they had previously kept to make space – so why do that.
You are better off finding a trading partner, doing the trade and then cutting your waste..
by G Fan in England on Aug 28, 2009 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why
Because you cut a player at the same position – so if the Giants pick up an OL then out goes one of Whimper or Koets..
by G Fan in England on Aug 28, 2009 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah...
I def want to see this happen but I know it’s not likely. I know there’s a team out there he can make a name for himself, but I don’t think it’s us. Nor do I believe we can trade him at this point, but ya never know. JR has earned my trust enough to seek every possible avenue and come to the best conclusion.
by YankeeDudeL on Aug 28, 2009 3:00 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The Giants have
Plenty of draft picks to wager with..but they won’t get anything for a reciever..Team’s are all waiting for the “Turk” to show up…the only shot at O-line help is going to be free agency or grab a guy like Tauscher, Runyan, or GR.
by Bobbiblue on Aug 28, 2009 4:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
So use them
The Fins traded some OL to the Chiefs, Hochstein has gone from the Pats to the Broncos. If you know you are going to replace Whimper or Koets do it now and not wait to 5 September to get a cut player who has little time to practice with the team.
Yes the Giants have drafted well with the late round picks, but a 2010 pick is not going to play in 2009.
So all I am saying is if the Giants are concerned they should act sooner rather than later.
by G Fan in England on Aug 28, 2009 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes I believe your right
The Giants will make a move for some o-line help before the season offficially starts.
by Bobbiblue on Aug 28, 2009 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
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