Land of the Giants: Can't we start camp already?

by Ed Valentine on Jul 24, 2009 7:00 AM EDT in News Comment 31 comments

This is getting ridiculous. Scratching around looking for stuff to write every day, just waiting ... and waiting ... and waiting, impatiently for training camp to start.

Of course, as luck would have it the Giants will be the last team to start training camp this season. So, anyway, here are some Giants-related stories making the rounds of the Inter-Google.

Who rules the NFC East?

A pair of ESPN writers debated this the other day, and here is how it turned out.

Jeremy Green (whom we now like): The Giants' defensive line is simply the most dominating group of any positional unit and having that luxury will make New York extremely difficult to beat every week of the year and against every opponent they face. You match that with a superb power running game and their ball control offense and the Giants should dominate the line of scrimmage, time of possession and pace of the game. I also feel like New York has the superior quarterback and coaching. When the chips are down, the Giants are a better team than Philadelphia, which has never proved to be able to get over that hump when it matters most.

Matt Williamson (whom we now despise): This summer, I was asked to do a piece on the biggest weakness of every NFL team. It wasn't hard to do -- except for the Eagles. The Pittsburgh Steelers and the New England Patriots are superior teams to Philadelphia in my opinion, but no one in the league has fewer holes. The Giants have a superior defensive line, but I will take the Eagles' linebackers and defensive backs without hesitation. I do concede that New York has the superior running game, but the offensive lines are now closer than ever and I trust Philadelphia's passing game by leaps and bounds over the Giants'. Throw in more superb return men than any one team should have and I think the choice is obvious.

Seriously, we know which side of the debate Giants' fans are on. And Eagles' fans. Each side can talk all it wants. I just can't wait until the games start -- that's when this debate will be settled.

2009 Training Camp Guide: NFC Team-by-Team

ESPN has a guide to the NFC training camps, including the Giants' camp in Albany. I will try to put together something a little more extensive before camp starts. I ought to be able to manage that, since I live here.

Shockey vs. Boss

The New York Times' Fifth Down blog takes a look at the production of Jeremy Shockey and Kevin Boss, and concludes that trading Shockey turned out just fine for the men in blue.

My take: I think we knew that already. Shockey has a past. Boss has a future. Those are the kind of players the Giants have built with.

"The rookies" enter their 3rd year

Experts say it takes at least three years to properly judge a draft. Well, Jerry Reese's first draft helped the Giants win a Super Bowl, and those players are now entering their third seasons. Ultimate NYG takes a look at where the players from that draft stand entering training camp.

Why is the Giants' offensive line so good?

NFL Touchdown looks at the line, and winds up comparing the Big Blue Blocking Crew to the cast of Seinfeld. Here is part of NFL Touchdown's comparison.

Since the end of the popular sitcom none of the actors who portrayed Jerry, George, Kramer, and Elaine have had comparable success as a solo act. The Seinfeld Theorem postulates this is a result of the group being stronger than the combined strengths of the individuals. To put it more simply, sometimes the whole is greater then the sum of its parts. In the football world, the Giants offensive line, likewise, has also proven that good players playing together can be great.

My take: Believe it or not, I have never been a big Seinfeld fan. The article correctly points out, though, that this Giants line is a classic case of the whole being better than the sum of its parts.

Here's a little something for you Seinfeld fans. And, yes, I did watch it. And, yes, it is funny.

NOTE: Trying a little something different with the formatting of the notebook. Hope you like it.

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One question for Matt Williamson

Why does he “trust Philadelphia’s passing game by leaps and bounds over the Giants’”? Am I missing something? Did McNabb suddenly get over throwing half of his passes in the dirt 3 feet in front of his receivers? Did they somehow land Jerry Rice in his prime and I didn’t hear about it? “Leaps and bounds”? Is that a bit of an overstatement or is it just me?

BTW, love the Seinfeld comparison.

by potroast on Jul 24, 2009 10:20 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Not to start trouble, but to answer your question...

Am I missing something?

Yes, you are most definitely missing something. I’ll list the arguments…

First, the Eagles’ strengths…

- Make fun of McNabb all you want, but the man has the 2nd lowest interception percentage in the history of the NFL. He rarely makes mistakes, and yet the Eagles year after year are among the top teams in passing yards.

- The Eagles have a running back (Brian Westbrook) that is probably the biggest threat as a receiver out of the backfield in the NFL.

- The receiving corps go 6 deep that includes a budding star in DeSean Jackson. Realistically, 4 of them could start for the Giants Week 1, and the other 2 could easily be the #3. Add to that Brent Celek, who, after sitting behind LJ Smith last year, had 19 catches in the playoffs last year when given the opportunity to start.

And the negatives for the Giants…

- The Giants entire receiving corps have a combined total of 5 career receiving TD’s (Hixon has 2, Smith has 1, and Moss, assuming he makes the team, has 2).

- The Giants WR’s have a combined total of 1,667 career receiving yards.

- The Giants RB’s are pretty much non-factors in the passing game. Derrick Ward was great in that role last year, and his production will be missed. Last year, Brandon Jacobs had 6 receptions for 36 yards. Ahmad Bradshaw had 5 for 42.

- I like Kevin Boss, but he’s not exactly a big playmaking threat. Last year, 33 catches, 384 yards, although he did score 6 TD’s.

I think Williamson is very much on the mark “trusting Philadelphia’s passing game by leaps and bounds over the Giants.”

by Bye, Dawk :( on Jul 24, 2009 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'll give you Deshaun Jackson

and my initial reaction was the rest of the guys are same motely crew you’ve always had. However, now that I think about, it did seem like Avant/Tacopants and Baskett did come alive toward the end of last year. Then again, we all know the passing game is what’s going to cost the season…. again….

by queler on Jul 24, 2009 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

No trouble, but both of you are still overstating your case

To retort:

- Impressive interception stat on McNabb and I actually like the guy, but he has a career completion percentage of 58.9. My contention is that he’s not all that accurate and let’s not forget the ups and downs of his career. You guys were ready to run him out of town a year ago. And now he’s the rock of the franchise?

- Granted on Westbrook, but he is turning 30 and showed signs of slowing down last year with career lows in yards per carry and yards per catch. Plus he’s coming off surgery.

- DeSean Jackson is a star? I’ll give you that he has talent, but this is an overstatement as well. He posted only 2 TDs last year. He was 28th in the league in yards and 35th in catches. Let’s not get ahead of ourselves.

- 4 WRs could start for the Giants? Curtis, Brown, and Avant? Yeah, I’m terrified of that group! Giants WRs are young and without many stats, but are talented and will post some numbers this year.

- I’ll grant you Jacobs is a non-factor in the passing game, but Bradshaw is a fine receiver out of the backfield. He simply did not get many opportunities last year. He will this year.

- Not sure why you brought up TEs to state your case when Boss has better numbers than someone that hasn’t proven he can handle the load yet.

- You are also ignoring offensive lines. While the Eagles made some nice moves in the offseason in this regard, they have not played together yet. The Giants O-line is considered one of the best in the game & that’s because they have played together for a few years and play as a unit. You may get there, but your not there yet.

Like I said, it’s an overstatement.

by potroast on Jul 24, 2009 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Giant D Line negates Philly passing game

I don’t think teams are going to enjoy trying to throw the ball down field against the Gmen. They simply will not have that kind of time. McNabbb will be limited to short quick passes to Westbrook and nothing else. Giants will key on him and the Phlly offense will be shut down completely.

by chris_NYG on Jul 24, 2009 11:30 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Please... Trivia question...

I realize you’re getting Osi back, but in the 3 match-ups with Philly last year, how many sacks did the Giants have?

by Bye, Dawk :( on Jul 24, 2009 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

(Jeopardy music playing)

by Bye, Dawk :( on Jul 24, 2009 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

last year is last year

we had like 15 sacks the year before, so clearly correlation is out

by queler on Jul 24, 2009 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hang on there... That wasn't the question...

Again, the trivia question was…

“I realize you’re getting Osi back, but in the 3 match-ups with Philly last year, how many sacks did the Giants have?”

by Bye, Dawk :( on Jul 24, 2009 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Am I not going to get so much as a guess on this one?

by Bye, Dawk :( on Jul 24, 2009 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Answer is 1 I think

So using the trends the Giants will get about -13 sacks this year. How do you get -13 sacks? Is that like 13 offsides? How do we quantify this for Dawk who is Bye?

by brisulph on Jul 24, 2009 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

So close...

But the answer is zero. And you’re right in your sarcasm that you can’t have less than zero sacks. Well done – Kinda my point.

As for 2007… Sure, the Giants absolutely destroyed the Eagles O Line (especially in the first game, when they had 12 of their 15 sacks against the Eagles). And that was an awful, awful season for Philly. However, I don’t think we’ll be trotting out Winston Justice anytime soon.

by Bye, Dawk :( on Jul 24, 2009 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

And

our DL has been fortified to say the least, so it would do you well to concede that it will be a good battle and that the Eagles are highly unlikely to hold the Gmen to no sacks again this year.

by potroast on Jul 24, 2009 5:59 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs

No doubt. I’m not under the delusion that we’ll hold you to 0 sacks again. I was merely initially responding to this nonsense…

Giant D Line negates Philly passing game

I don’t think teams are going to enjoy trying to throw the ball down field against the Gmen. They simply will not have that kind of time. McNabbb will be limited to short quick passes to Westbrook and nothing else. Giants will key on him and the Phlly offense will be shut down completely.

by Bye, Dawk :( on Jul 25, 2009 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

not sure

…but i seem to recall a game the year before where the giants had 12 sacks and osi had 6 just by himself. then they went on to win the super bowl. another thing i couldn’t help but notice is that the eagles have NEVER won a super bowl, yet everyone thinks they’re the greatest team in the league for some strange reason.

by bmanley620 on Jul 24, 2009 10:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Face it, gang

This is an argument no one can win. They are both very good teams. We just have to wait for the season and see what happens.

by Ed Valentine on Jul 24, 2009 12:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

i think if i have some time this weekend

I might put together a little top ten Giants-Eagles moments of the last 10 years.

by queler on Jul 24, 2009 1:00 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

It's been one hell of a rivalry, maybe the best in the NFL

going way back before Bednarik’s legendary hit on Giff.

by blue gonz on Jul 24, 2009 1:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Just read about that in "Giants Among Men"

Makes you pine for the days when a clean hit was a clean hit, and not something that would result in a fight anyway.

by brisulph on Jul 24, 2009 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Williamson is an idiot

yes, on paper the Eagles look good.

But when you factor in the fact they were extremely up and down last season and didn’t actually earn their way in completely to the playoffs (Bucs loss put them in), the DID lose their DC on the defense. Regardless of his lack of speed, Dawkins still was in on every single tackle.

If Eagles fans don’t think the loss of Dawkins will hurt, they are as wrong as WIlliamson.

ANd the Eagles receiving core is NOT leaps and bounds better. Desean Jackson is the only one Id actually take on the Giants, but the sophmore slump is nothing new and while Jacskon could improve he could also take a shit next season.

And if Im not mistaken, Brian Westbrook still makes the offense go. He’s having some pretty serious surgery. It always seems to not affect him much, but he’s not getting any younger.

Eagles offensive line seems great too, but why are they so solid all of a sudden? Stacy Andrews? Really? Shawn Andrews is very good too as long as he stays at guard.

Lot of talent, but what the hell does that prove? O-Line has to be cohesive, doesn;t matter if you have 5 all-pros if they can’t play together, they won’t be all-pro’s anymore.

That’s a few questions I had and I just winged all of it. How come Williamson can’t even do his HW when this is his job?

by FreeBradshaw on Jul 24, 2009 3:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Some numbers comparison

To start off, I am a McNabb fan (from his ‘Cuse days), but hate the fact he toils for a city that has never appreciated him. We all remember the boos on draft day (yeah they wanted Ricky Williams. Funny how they forget how that would have worked out). But if you compare the numbers from his first five years vs. Eli’s, they are remarkably similar. McNabb has a definite edge, but it is nowhere near “leaps and bounds”. To illustrate, straight from nfl.com: Att Comp Comp % (Avg) Yds TD INT QB rating (avg)

Eli 2284 1276 55.02 14623 98 74 73.72

Donnie 2117 1207 56.16 13051 87 49 77.56

Eli has alot more yards, Donnie alot less INT. Other than that every stat is comparable. Now for the Eagles’ WR. Jackson could be a great player. Maclin is a rookie. Curtis gets hurt alot. To claim Avant or Mr. Kendra is a starter on the Giants is simply ludicrous goading, and shows a lack of knowledge about the Giants team. And Celek played damn good in the playoffs last year, but it’s simple fact to say Boss has been a better weapon to this point.

Homer: Aw, twenty dollars! I wanted a peanut!
Homer's Brain: Twenty dollars can buy many peanuts!
Homer: Explain how!
Homer's Brain: Money can be exchanged for goods and services!
Homer: Woo-hoo!

by bigbluethruandthru on Jul 24, 2009 10:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Hey byedawk,

Bottom line is we arguably have the best o-line in football. And try to even come up with a team that has a better rotation on the d-line……..impossible. And as we all know, when you win the battle down in the trenches well you basically got’em licked. Just like when everyone was sweating the cowboys as the team to beat a cpl of years ago….well we all know how that worked out in 07 right? It’s all about the eagles right now…………hehe. every report out there has Philly as the team to beat. Dont you know we thrive on being disrespected in NY? You guys just caught us at the right time last year is all. I dont care how good U think ur recievers are, Mcnabb isnt gonna complete alot of passes being on his back!!!! Not when Osi and Tuck play meet you at the QB.

by giantsNYrangers on Jul 25, 2009 2:20 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I'm with you on the trenches point, brother...

Do the Giants have the best D Line in football?

Yup. They sure do. They’re 10 deep, and rotate guys in and out to keep players fresh the entire game, which creates enormous matches against tired offensive lines in the second half. I’m all too familiar with that defensive philosophy. You know why? Because the Eagles have been doing it much longer – Spagnuolo learned it from Jim Johnson and brought that approach over from Philly. That said, the Eagles D Line is pretty damn good, too. We too go 10 deep. Would I trade our entire D Line for your entire D Line? In a heartbeat… But the Eagles D Line is a Top 5 NFL unit as well.

Do the Giants have the best O Line in football?

Ehhhhh, not so sure on that one. It’s an outstanding bunch, no doubt, but I could easily make a strong case for Philly’s O Line as well. They’re young, huge, athletic, and nasty.

by Bye, Dawk :( on Jul 25, 2009 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i don't know about the Eagles line

they’re all big, young athletic and nasty. But they haven’t played long together, and that usually matters more than talent.

And while I know Jason Peters is very good, I also know that Stacy Andrews is an average lineman. Shawn Andrews is also coming back from whatever the hell caused him to miss all of last year, so he’s a questionmark too.

I don’t know how you can even make an argument that the Eagles O-line is better than a group that has been cohesive for years and has basically no questionmarks for this season, other than can they still stay healthy.

by FreeBradshaw on Jul 25, 2009 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

It’s a very tough comparison. For one, the Giants and Eagles have vastly different blocking schemes, so it would be very difficult to compare the two anyway, especially since, as you noted, nobody has ever seen this Eagles unit play together. I think the Eagles probably have a slight edge in talent, but you’re right… The Giants have the ever-important cohesiveness, and a ton of talent as well. They’re both great lines. I’m not saying the Giants are better; I’m not saying the Eagles are better – This is one that will have to wait until about Week 4 or 5. Deal?

by Bye, Dawk :( on Jul 25, 2009 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

eh...

of course week 4 or 5 will tell us more.

But right now if you are comparing, there’s really no argument to say the Eagles are better. There are just too many questions about the starters, while the Giants questions are about backups.

Right now, based on last season, the Giants are better and one of the top 2-3 in the league (Id say Giants, Titans and probably Panthers could be interchanged).

The Eagles right now we all know will be good, maybe like you say top 5. But they are incomplete right now cuz basically they are adding 3 new guys to the line, tho they all are veterans and 2/3 are extremely good.

Although Week 8 sounds better to me…….

by FreeBradshaw on Jul 26, 2009 8:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I have to vent on this one!

I am a Giants fan living in the Philly area. A few questions for the Eagle fans:

1) Who is going to run the football when Westbrook inevitably goes down? Booker? He can’t stay on his feet on a windy day? McCoy? Westbrook clone who may or may not be able to run and catch but is he gonna be able to pick up a blitz and learn the offense? Who’s gonna punch it in at the goal line or convert a 3rd and 2? I seem to recall a failure to convert a 3rd down run in our first meeting last year that sealed the win for the Gmen.

2) How can you be so confident in your oline? They haven’t played together, Shawn Andrews missed the entire year with numerous issues, Stacy Andrews has been injured since last season with an ACL, and Jason Peters gave up 11 sacks last year. I guess if the Eagles, or their wonderful fans, piss Peters off he’s gonna let the NFC East pass rushers run by him and kill McNabb. On a side note, if the Giants didn’t get any sacks on McNabb last year I guess Giant fans will be more than happy to see a new Eagle oline.

3) How good do you really think your dline is? Last year, the Giants had 40 something sacks WITHOUT their best pass rusher for an entire season. So, if Trent Cole should go down in the preseason who the hell is gonna pick up that slack. The Eagles have not been able to get a consistent pass rush without all the crazy blitzes.

4) Who is the leader on that defense? Let’s face it Eagle fans, without that defense there is no way the Eagles make it to one championship game, let alone five. So, who is it? You have a new D coordinator, Dawkins is gone, Sheldon Brown wants out, the secondary will look a bit different. If Asante Samuel or Sheldon Brown miss any significant time who do you put in? Ellis Hobbs? Please do! That guy sucks!

I could continue but my post is getting rather long…so I’ll cut it off here for now.

by milhous on Jul 26, 2009 10:22 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

1) Who is going to run the football when Westbrook inevitably goes down? Booker? He can’t stay on his feet on a windy day? McCoy? Westbrook clone who may or may not be able to run and catch but is he gonna be able to pick up a blitz and learn the offense? Who’s gonna punch it in at the goal line or convert a 3rd and 2? I seem to recall a failure to convert a 3rd down run in our first meeting last year that sealed the win for the Gmen.

Ah, begging for an injury… Love it . Name me one team in the NFL where you could say “What if (team’s best player) gets hurt?” and there wouldn’t be a big dropoff in production.

And by the way, you could easily insert Brandon Jacobs’ name into that same question. Here’s what that would look like…

1) Who is going to run the football when Jacobs inevitably goes down? Bradshaw? He can’t stay on his feet on a windy day? Ware, who may or may not be able to run and catch but is he gonna be able to pick up a blitz and learn the offense? Who’s gonna punch it in at the goal line or convert a 3rd and 2? I seem to recall a failure to convert a 3rd down run in our last meeting last year that sealed the win for the Eagles.

See how that works?

2) How can you be so confident in your oline? They haven’t played together, Shawn Andrews missed the entire year with numerous issues, Stacy Andrews has been injured since last season with an ACL, and Jason Peters gave up 11 sacks last year. I guess if the Eagles, or their wonderful fans, piss Peters off he’s gonna let the NFC East pass rushers run by him and kill McNabb. On a side note, if the Giants didn’t get any sacks on McNabb last year I guess Giant fans will be more than happy to see a new Eagle oline.

I think the better question is “How can we not be confident in our O Line?” Again… Big, young, athletic, and nasty. Will they maybe blow a protection or two over the course of the season that you could chalk up to a lack of continuity? Maybe. Maybe not. But the enormous boost in talent will far outweigh the potential downside.

3) How good do you really think your dline is? Last year, the Giants had 40 something sacks WITHOUT their best pass rusher for an entire season. So, if Trent Cole should go down in the preseason who the hell is gonna pick up that slack. The Eagles have not been able to get a consistent pass rush without all the crazy blitzes.

Yeah, the Giants had 42 sacks. Congrats… And I’ve said already that the Giants have the best D Line in the NFL. The Eagles had 48. And again… banking on injuries?

4) Who is the leader on that defense? Let’s face it Eagle fans, without that defense there is no way the Eagles make it to one championship game, let alone five. So, who is it? You have a new D coordinator, Dawkins is gone, Sheldon Brown wants out, the secondary will look a bit different. If Asante Samuel or Sheldon Brown miss any significant time who do you put in? Ellis Hobbs? Please do! That guy sucks!

Hmmmm, seeing a trend developing here. What if “Player X” or “Player Y” gets hurt? Is that your ENTIRE argument for the Eagles not having a good season? Possible injuries? And you’re pointing to Ellis Hobbs, our DIME BACK, as a guy that’s going to ruin the season? The Eagles might have the best secondary in the NFL… and definitely the deepest. Compliment taken.

I could continue but my post is getting rather long…so I’ll cut it off here for now.

No, no… By all means… Keep ’em going. I think you forgot “What if Donovan McNabb or DeSean Jackson gets hurt?”

by Bye, Dawk :( on Jul 26, 2009 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

...

Westbrook is coming off major surgery. Jacobs MIGHT get hurt again, and he probably will. But as far as game one for him, he’s 100%. Westbrook, who knows.

And Bradshaw can’t stay on his feet? Where the hell did you come up with that? The main knock on him is he’s a fumbling risk, and is actually because he stays on his feet too long.

That is all.

by FreeBradshaw on Jul 26, 2009 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

bye,dawk I do not beg for injuries. I was raising a point based on recent history. If you think that Westbrook will make it through an entire season you’re drinking the same Kool Aid as all the eagle fans who conveniently forget the first 15 games of last year and think the Eagles are gonna plow through the league this year and win a Super Bowl. If you think that Shawn Andrews is going to play a new position (that they signed his brother for) after not playing all of last year with back and mental issues and jump right back in, you’re crazy and you can squeeze your head up Andy Reid’s ass right next to Howard Eskin’s. I fully realize the other side of my original argument. The Trent Cole was an analogy as to what it was like to lose Osi and that our Dline was still able to play at a high level and will be even more stacked this year.

By the way, I don’t think anybody is worried about the Giants running back depth. We are all aware that Jacobs has been injury prone and we are also aware that we were still the best rushing team in the league last year despite that fact. Yeah, we lost Ward but after testing the free agent market he practically begged to come back (reports were that he’d come back for $2M/ season) so obviously the organization feels they have plenty of versatility in there talent at that position…something the eagles do not.

Time’s yours

by milhous on Jul 26, 2009 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs