BBV chats with 'Bleeding Green Nation'
Since we have spent so much time recently debating the drafts of our New York Giants and the rival Philadelphia Eagles I reached out to the marvelous 'JasonB' over at the Eagles blog Bleeding Green Nation for some of his thoughts on the off-seasons of both teams.
Here is the result of our Q&A, which went beyond the standard five questions.
Big Blue View: Let's talk NFL Draft. I was struck by the similarities in the drafts of the Eagles and Giants.
Eagles take Maclin ... Giants take Nicks.
Eagles take RB LeSean McCoy ... Giants take RB Andre Brown.
Eagles take TE Cornelius Ingram ... Giants take TE Travis Beckum.
Eagles trade for Jason Peters ... Giants draft LT William Beatty (I know that comparison is a bit of a stretch).
What do you make of all that?
Bleeding Green Nation: That is interesting. Both teams lost RBs this offseason, so those were need picks. I'm not sure how you guys feel about your own Kevin Boss and our own Brent Celek, but I dont really see either player as anything special. So TE was a need pick for both teams in my eyes. Everyone and their mother seemed to know that the Giants would take a WR... I think the two most similar picks in many ways are Beatty and Maclin. I don't think either team set out to target either player or even either position, but the value was just too good to pass up.
BBV: Your favorite Eagles' draft move? Also, was there a move that left you scratching your head?
BGN: I can maybe answer this question with one guy. Cornelius Ingram. The one major head scratcher for me on draft day was when they didn't take a TE in round 3. I thought for sure that was their target and I saw it as a major need. However, I think they went on to steal Cornelius Ingram in round 5... He's got great size, great athleticism, and could really be the "big" red zone reciever that we've been looking for. Most people at the draft I talked to were shocked to see him drop into the 5th and thought that if he hadn't gotten hurt last year he would have been a second round pick. Todd McShay said he was one of the best picks of the second day. I have hopes for him, but admittedly TE still bothers me for this year.
BBV: Maclin vs. Nicks. You recently wrote that the Eagles 'beat the Giants' to Maclin. I suspect we will be comparing these guys for a long time. Make the case for why the Eagles got the better of the two young wide receivers.
BGN: Well... I'll let the Giants make the case! They think Maclin was the better player since they had him higher on their board and were trying to move up to #20 to get him. I kid... sorta.
They've got similar size and while Nicks is probably more "NFL ready" I don't believe he has the upside of a guy like Maclin. Nicks could be a good player sooner, but I'm not sure he has the superstar potential of Maclin. It all comes down to that speed and athleticism. Plus, Maclin is an elite returner which is an area he'll hopefully be able to make an immedate impact. We'll see how their careers play out though, I suspect you're right that these guys along with Heyward-Bey, Crabtree, Harvin, and Britt will always draw comparisons to one another.
BBV: Including the free-agent signing period, how do you feel about the Eagles' off-season? Biggest acquisition? Biggest loss?
BGN: The biggest acquisition literally and otherwise is probably Jason Peters. Tra Thomas has been a cornerstone of this franchise for over a decade now and LT is a position that pretty much every great team has locked down. When Tra left it appeared that vital position would be a big question mark, but to replace him with a two time pro bowler just entering his prime was huge. Giants fans know as well as us that Winston Justice sure as hell wasn't going to take over.... so getting Jason Peters in there was a great thing.
The biggest loss was probably Brian Dawkins. While at 36 years old he's not the player he once was... I think we're all wondering what his loss will mean to the locker room. This Eagles team over the past few years has been one that has shown good character. They seem to always falter at some point in the middle of the year and put themselves in a near impossible situation only to have a sensational last month and get themselves into the postseason. So if we were to find ourselves in that situation again, I wonder who the guy will be to oull the team off the mat and give them the belief that they can win three straight NFC East road games in December like they did in 06/07 or beat the Giants on the road twice late and blowout Dallas in a must win like they did last year. Dawkins has been that guy.
BBV: Do you feel there are any holes on the Eagles that still have not been addressed?
BGN: I'm not sure that I'd call this a "hole" as much as a "question mark" but the position is free safety. Quintin Demps was drafted last year to eventually replace Brian Dawkins, but I think his depature came a year earlier than we thought it would. So while Demps did play quite a bit in the second half of last year he's still an unknown. The Eagles did add some veterans safeties in free agency and picked a guy that will probably play FS later in the draft, but that's a position of concern right now. TE is still a concern as well. Brent Celek had a pretty amazing run in last year's playoffs, but I still think he's limited as far as upside. I loved the pick of Ingram this year, but how much can we expect from him as a rookie?
BBV: The Giants traded up with the Eagles in the third round to select WR Ramses Barden, a pick that has overwhelmingly been lauded by the folks at Big Blue View. Did it surprise, or bother you, that the Eagles made that deal with the Giants?
BGN: Two years ago the Eagles traded a first-round pick to the Dallas Cowboys, so the fact that they'd trade with the Giants is certainly no shock. My view on the draft is that it really shouldn't matter who you're trading with. If you've made the decision that you don't see value where you're picking, then you should take the best deal you can to move back. So if the Giants want to move up for value that the Eagles don't think is there, by all means let them. Now, whether the Eagles were correct that the value wasn't there is something that obviously remains to be seen. Clearly the two teams saw different boards there and in the end one is going to be more right than the other.
The last time the Eagles traded down with a division rival we got our backup QB and our starting middle linebacker, while they got Anthony Spencer. That said, I trust the Giants draft evaluators a lot more than their Dallas counterparts...
As for Ramses Barden, I really don't know what to think about that guy. I remember asking someone before the draft "If he wasn't 6'6 would he even get drafted?" He didn't play against major college competition, he was amongst the slowest timed WRs in the draft, the scouting reports don't seem to say that he doesn't any of the typical WR things(hands, routes, seperation) particularly well... but he's got that freakish height. It'll certainly be interesting to see how he develops over the next couple years, but I don't know what to think of him.
BBV: In my view, the Giants and Eagles (no matter which order you put them in) have clearly separated themselves from the Cowboys and Redskins in the NFC East. Would you agree with that?
BGN: I do agree. I think the end of the last year and the offseason has cemented the idea that Eagles and Giants are the class of the NFC East. It's about more than just the offseason additions though. The Eagles and Giants have both proven that they know how to win a big game when they need to. The Redskins and Cowboys haven't proven that. I don't think there's a huge gap of talent between these teams, I think the real seperation is that ability or nerve to play big when the pressure is on. I'm not totally sure why two teams have it and two don't, but I suspect coaching has a LOT to do with it.
BBV: You were one of the two SBN writers who were able to get credentials to cover the draft in New York (and yes, I'm jealous as hell). Describe the experience.
BGN: It was great and grueling all in one. What I never got watching it on TV was how much energy there is in the room. The media is buzzing, the ESPN and NFLN guys are set up right in the middle of everything, the fans are electric... IT's a great time, especially that first day. The second day has considerably less energy and really can drag on for the last few rounds...
I gotta give credit to Jets fan though. They own that place on draft day. The Eagles, Giants, and to a less extent Patriots are all well represented but none of them trump the Jet fans. When the Jets made the move for Sanchez, that place absolutely exploded. Really gave me chills.
'Kudos' to Jason for some thoughtful -- and I'm sure argument-provoking answers. I will be answering some questions for BGN, so be sure to head over there and have a look. And, remember, play nice. Represent BBV with some class. I will try to hook up with Hogs Haven and Blogging the Boys for similar Q&As soon.
-- E-mail Ed at bigblueview@gmail.com
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33 comments
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Comments
On the topic of Nicks vs. Maclin
I think it might come down to a fast WR catching in stride vs. a WR ready to run routes and fight for the ball. Each team probably got the right guy for the job.
Regarding the draft day excitement, I suppose Jets fans should have good practice at that by now.
by rzor on May 5, 2009 9:46 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
LOL!!
The Jets can ‘win’ draft day any time they want. We know who wins on the field.
by Ed Valentine on May 5, 2009 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
to be fair
usually they’re just there to boo. For once the Jets actually made a good draft day move, so they were probably ecstatic. It’s kinda like the equivalent of the Red Sox finally winning the World Series.
by cjmulrain on May 5, 2009 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jets have won 15 Super Bowls in April
Blueshirt Banter: Covering the New York Rangers
Big Blue View: Unofficial New York Giants blog
by Jim Schmiedeberg on May 5, 2009 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Damn Giants...
One just can’t count on your organization to have a bad draft. As long as Jerry Jones is calling the shots in Dallas they’ll always have frenetic draft experiences (last year they made out like bandits; this year they apparently drafted 12 special teamers), and as long as Dan Snyder owns the Redskins they’ll dominate free agency while consistently making poor draft decisions. But Jerry Reese deserves a lot of respect for the past few years, and as much as I loved the Eagles draft, I was also very (unfortunately) impressed with what the Giants did.
Here’s to another two (or three) slugfests between our teams this year!
by ajay on May 5, 2009 12:26 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Good read, but one thing I disagreed with was the comparison of Boss and Celek. Both tight ends have essentially the same skill-set and build, but I think it’s clear that Boss is the more proven TE. The difference between Boss and Celek in the red-zone is especially noticeable, and although Celek showed up in the playoffs last season I don’t think he can be compared to Boss. If anything, a huge difference between the two is that Boss has become Eli’s safety net, while Celek has not become the same for Mcnabb – that says a lot.
"Nobody in football should be called a genius. A genius is a guy like Norman Einstein." -Joe Theismann
by southjersey89 on May 5, 2009 12:27 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
good point, i agree
"I think pro athletes should be forced to use steroids. I think we as fans deserve the greatest athletes science can create."- Daniel Tosh
If Football Had A Church , Brian Dawkins Would Be My Preacher. -NPK
by NorthPhillyKid on May 5, 2009 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Boss
I think we are much higher on Boss than JasonB seems to realize. I’m hoping the Bossman steps up into that primary target role this season.
by Ed Valentine on May 5, 2009 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
primary target role?
i could name 1 NFL team with a TE who is their primary target, but they traded him to atlanta for a 2nd rounder next year. gonzo and perhaps witten (because roy williams is horrible), but basically no NFL teams have a TE as their primary target.
as an eagles fan, i’d welcome that…though unfortunately we were terrible against TEs last year, but another year for gocong to finish his transition from DII DE to NFL SAM might remedy that.
http://poorsportsblog.blogspot.com/
by PoorSports on May 5, 2009 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Put it another way
I would like to see Boss go from a 30+ catch TE to a 50-60 catch TE. He’s got great hands, great size, good speed for a TE and can be a real weapon if he continues to develop. That might not make him a ‘primary’ target, but it makes him a dangerous player.
by Ed Valentine on May 5, 2009 6:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Could it be
That Boss is under the radar because he is the opposite of Shockey. If the ball is not thrown his way, he just goes back to the huddle for the next play and when the ball is thrown to him, he only makes plays. I truely think that the Bossman has All-Pro written all over him. He’s a hard worker and only improves with each game.
by njgiant on May 5, 2009 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
BOss is under the radar because he caught 33 passes for 384 yards. He’ll need a much higher level of production before anything actually mentions him as an “all pro.”
Clearly you all have seen a lot more of him than me… but from the Giants games I’ve watched, I’d say Boss is solid but not really a potential star. But who knows? He got decent hands, his blocking seems to have gotten better, you have to love his size.
by JasonB on May 5, 2009 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good point about the yardage. Maybe my opinion of Boss is skewed because at Rutgers all I get is Giants games, but it seems like every time the Gmen get in the red-zone Boss comes down with it. I mean 6 TD and 384 yards is not too shabby for a TE, but I agree if he improves more this year he could be a star.
"Nobody in football should be called a genius. A genius is a guy like Norman Einstein." -Joe Theismann
by southjersey89 on May 5, 2009 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No it’s shabby. Especially for a guy who was a 5th round pick and is coming his first full year as a starter. That’s a good start.
by JasonB on May 5, 2009 7:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The first 6 games
of the season, he wasn’t even an afterthought. He started coming on late in the season and if he gets the opportunity (passes thrown to), he can make them count and yes, I see (with his work ethic), the potential for an All-Pro. If he catches 60-65 catches (and this is possible because Eli has confidence in him), he could be mentioned as a back up in Hawaii. I say back up because you know Tony G or Whitten has already been penciled in as the starter. With Plax gone, Boss’ role and catches will increase.
by njgiant on May 5, 2009 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Boss
Last year was his first as a starter. I think he is going to continue to get better and better. One thing about the Giants is that Coughlin and Gilbride are very traditional in their use of the tight end, which Jeremy Shockey hated. So, the TE is almost never the first option on a play … unless it’s in the red zone.
by Ed Valentine on May 5, 2009 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Traditional
….that’s a good word. I like to use the word predictable. Someone get Sean Peyton on the line please. With the weapons on the roster, this should be the year to open things up a little more. I’m not saying abandon the run, I know that’s our bread and butter, but we could kick things up a notch.
by njgiant on May 5, 2009 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why not?
Can you justify this comment to me? At last check, Eli’s stats from last year are on the same page as McNabb’s. Don’t let the last 4 games of the season override his total body of work for the year. Check the stats. Eli did just as well or better than McNabb in some cases.
by njgiant on May 6, 2009 9:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
To be fair, Celek has only started a few games in his career. LJ Smith started for nearly the first half of last season.
by JasonB on May 5, 2009 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The only time Celek's any good?
…when he plays the Giants. Least it seems that way. Ingram has good hands and speed. Not much in the blocking department. Nice 5th round pick though.
I left my swagger in my other pants.
by HughG16 on May 6, 2009 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
After doing some research...
I think I’ve finally figured out what the Eagles did with the picks they got from the Giants in that trade.
The Eagles turned the 3rd rounder they got from the Giants into a 2010 3rd round pick(from Seattle), a 7th round pick, and two fifth round picks(One from the Giants). One of those fifth round picks went to New England for CB Ellis Hobbs, and the other went to New Orleans for a 2010 fifth and a seventh round pick. The two 7th rounders were used on WR Brandon Gibson and OLB Moise Fokou. So in the end the Eagles traded the pick used on Barden for a 2010 3rd rounder, 2010 5th rounder, CB Ellis Hobbs from the Patriots, 2010 7th rounder, WR Brandon Gibson, & LB Moise Fokou.
by JasonB on May 5, 2009 7:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
So we got all of this value from the 3rd rounder we traded to the Giants, but will that mitigate any success that Barden might have in the future?
In other words, if Barden becomes at towering monster of an NFL receiver, should us Eagles fans kick ourselves for essentially delivering him to New York, or should we feel satisfied that we got such value out of the trade? I personally think the future of Barden is one of the most interesting story lines coming away from the draft because it can directly measure who messed up – the Eagles or the Giants.
The question is, will Barden have enough success to be worth a 2010 3rd rounder, 2010 5th rounder, (1/2) Ellis Hobbs, 2010 7th rounder, Gibson, Fokou? Unless he becomes the next Plaxico, I doubt it. The funny thing is, even though we got such a great return on that 3rd rounder we gave up, I will still kick myself if Barden becomes an Eagle-Killer because that’s just the nature of the game.
"Nobody in football should be called a genius. A genius is a guy like Norman Einstein." -Joe Theismann
by southjersey89 on May 5, 2009 9:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I do hate the fact
The giants have a very smart FO in place. You can bet that they’ll have a good team lined up year in year out…
About Boss- I have to take JasonB’s approach here. I don’t see all-pro in him at all. In fact, I only see serviceable starter, not even pro bowl. I could be wrong, but he never did anything overly spectacular to convince me otherwise.
E-A-G-L-E-S EAGLES!!!
by Joe_D on May 5, 2009 9:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Question for Giants Fans
How do Giants fans feel about the Hakeem Nicks pick over Kenny Britt? I’m speaking in absolute terms since we all have a tendency to convince ourselves that whoever our teams end up with is the better pick. If I were to ask you this question 30 seconds before the Giants pick in round 1, what would you say?
I like to think I know a little bit about the Giants since I watch so many of their games every year, and I can’t help but to think that Britt was the better fit in the Giants offense. Let’s be honest, Reese knows that he faces the Eagles twice, maybe even three times a year. He also knows that he really misses having Plaxico to ruin us in the end-zone. So why not draft the guy with the best chance to become what Plaxico was?
Plaxico:
Tall, well-built receiver with a long stride that allows him to glide past defenders. Can out-jump and out-muscle cornerbacks for deep balls and can make acrobatic catches. Uses his size and experience well on shorter routes. Has improved as a route runner
Britt:
Britt is an nfl-built receiver who is strong, agile, quick, and good at getting open, mainly over the middle of the field. His strength gives him the ability to seal off a defender in a one on one situation. He is a good runner after the catch and can draw double coverage due to his size and sheer talent.
It seems like you guys had the chance of a lifetime to replace Plaxico, but instead you went with Hakeem Nicks, who has an entirely different skill-set.
Nicks:
Arguably the top route runner in this year’s class, Nicks is a reliable target with very good hands. Runs crisp routes and has good quickness out of his breaks. For a receiver, Nicks has good strength. Cornerbacks have to be sound tacklers to take him down in the open field. Gives some safeties trouble when he gets a head of steam. Has good awareness of the sideline when he’s up in the air. Knows how to really attack a zone. Easily locates the hole and is patient enough to sit in them until the pass arrives.
I am not knocking what Nicks brings to the table, but why get another Steve Smith when you can get another Plaxico? The argument can be made that Nicks will be successful and take the Giants offense in a different direction, but the Giants offense with a Plaxico-type player in the lineup has been a proven success, so why fix what isn’t broken? I’ve seen Kenny Britt play many times in person, and I can tell you first hand that if developed correctly, he can really be that same time of threat that Plaxico was. Only time will tell if Reese made the right choice, but who would you guys rather have honestly?
"Nobody in football should be called a genius. A genius is a guy like Norman Einstein." -Joe Theismann
by southjersey89 on May 5, 2009 9:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The Giants met with Britt pre-draft
…maybe they didn’t like what they saw. That’s all I can figure. That and a bunch of ratings and numbers and such. Nicks will be a good WR, but you’re righ – he doesn’t fill the need. Hopefully Barden does.
I left my swagger in my other pants.
by HughG16 on May 6, 2009 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like Nicks better
cuz I like quick WR.
I think the idea that Plaxico was so good for the Giants is kind of false. Yes he was tall, but how many times did they actually use it? Few games here and there. This is why Nicks over Britt to me is a huge leap in the right direction for the passing game.
The real thing the Giants need is WR WHO CAN GET OPEN!!! Plaxico for all his size, was NOT QUICK AT ALL.
Nicks is most definitely quick. And he isn’t exactly small either.
Tall is nice, but if all your doing is throwing jump balls to the tall guy IN THEORY, what the hell is that?
Nicks fills the Giants greatest need. A WR who can actually get open with his quickness AND is big and strong enough to catch those ducks.
by FreeBradshaw on May 10, 2009 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
just one question... what's the deal with mannigham???
i ask this, only because we have a similar receiver in chicago… and, well, you are talking about receivers… what is the status on mario? how good/bad is he and how does he fit into this equation? btw, nice to see you boys getting along in the offseason… i guess there’s time to hate each other later.
by windycity72 on May 6, 2009 8:49 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Manningham
The thing is … nobody knows how good the guy is. He barely got on the field last year after missing much of training camp with an injury. The Giants think he can be a ‘stretch the field’ guy, but with the depth they have now at WR he is going to need a great camp to push Domenik Hixon to the bench and get on the field. Personally, I would love to see that. Hixon is a terrific return guy, and the Giants don’t use him there much when he is playing offense all the time.
by Ed Valentine on May 6, 2009 9:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i see...
it’s identical to what we’re going thru with earl bennett, with the exception of the injury. our only solice is that he’s gonna be thrown to by his old college quarterback. and, you are absolutely right about having depth at WR… here’s one for you, since you guys are feeling all warm and fuzzy now a days… how would DNABB have looked on a team with all those offensive weapons… and, conversely, eli in philly. sorry new yorkers, DNABB gets all caps cuz he’s from the chi, and eli… well, i really don’t like him at all so we’ll just leave it at that. switch quarterbacks… how would the teams look??? and seeing how this is a bit controversial, only the “true” football fan need apply.
by windycity72 on May 6, 2009 9:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I love Eli
but I think McNabb could be great in NY. McNabb’s not the most accurate passer, but I think he has a stronger arm than Eli and his passes tend to miss low, not high, which would be more conducive to the swirling winds at Giants Stadium. I respect the hell out of McNabb and think when all is said and done people are going to look back on his career and wonder why they didn’t appreciate him more.
"This is the beauty of baseball. In basketball, at the end of the game, you want to put the ball in your best scorer's hands. But in baseball, it's up to a rookie like McGlinchy and a journeyman like Franco with the entire season on the line. Baseball history is dotted with names like Al Weis and Brian Doyle, men who have taken their name out of the agate type and placed it into the headlines, because it was simply their time."
by cjmulrain on May 6, 2009 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's a tough one
The first thing I would note is passes attempted. Eli’s would go up and McNabb’s would go down, that’s simply the way these offenses work. New York is, and probably will always be, a running team and Philly is pass happy. McNabb would have to fight that Giant’s Stadium wind, not good for him. Eli would not be able to shake Tuck or Osi off of his ace, let’s not be fooled here, McNabb is the stronger of the two. I think it’s the OL that would make or break these two. McNabb would have the easier time because I think we have the better line. I don’t know how Eli would do with the new and improved line of Philly. If they don’t gel right away, Eli could not extend a play with his legs and lower body like McNabb does. Like I said, this is a tough one. Someone help me out.
by njgiant on May 6, 2009 9:41 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
let's stick to pre draft stats to make it easier...
and more realistic in terms of outcome. maybe a five year window like say… ‘04-’09. my guess is that the giants would have another ring, and the eagles would’ve traded eli by the third year.
by windycity72 on May 6, 2009 9:52 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

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