Should Sheridan go now?
by Ed Valentine on Dec 14, 2009 1:49 PM EST
in New York Giants News
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Print[UPDATE: Both Ralph Vacchiano and Mike Garafolo have tweeted that TC says Sheridan is staying for the remainder of the season. That, actually, is what I expected.]
Back in 2006, with his team desperate for a win to reach the playoffs and seemingly fractured on offense, Tom Coughlin made the bold decision to relieve offensive coordinator John Hufnagel of his duties with one game remaining. He gave the job to Kevin Gilbride.
We know what happened. The Giants made the playoffs. The next year they won the Super Bowl.
Does Coughlin need to do the same thing with his defense right now? It's painfully obvious rookie defensive coordinator Bill Sheridan has not been up to the task. Would it help to remove Sheridan right now and replace him with someone like defensive backs coach Peter Giunta or defensive line coach Mike Waufle?
Does Coughlin, who has more security now than he did back in 2006, even feel the same urgency he did at the time. His job was hanging by a thread, remember. Now, he is here pretty much as long as he wants to be.
Here is how Peter King put it today.
I'd be shocked if Tom Coughlin didn't rip up his defensive staff after the season, or at least replace defensive coordinator Bill Sheridan. Results-oriented business. Giants are 2-6 in their past eight. Allowed 32 points a game in those eight outings. He has to do something.
NewJersey.com columnist Steve Politi delved a little deeper.
The Giants built a championship team on a blitzing, opportunistic unit that once sacked Philadelphia quarterback Donovan McNabb 12 times in a game.
They didn’t breathe on McNabb most plays Sunday night. This defense has most of the same players as that defense, and it already has given up more than 30 points five times this season — the most at any point in the decade.
This defense has allowed 40 or more points in three games this season, the first time that’s happened in the 33-year history of Giants Stadium. They might be closing the place.
But this isn’t a Giants defense.
"I don’t think it’s a lack of effort," Umenyiora said. "We’re fighting. But for some reason, when it comes time to make a play, we don’t. We need to focus on getting our football right."
If the fortunes do not change dramatically in the final three weeks, the end result will be Sheridan losing his job. This unit has too much talent to be exposed this badly, week after the week. How many times have the Giants had a gut-check moment this season and failed to get the key stop?
"It’s always something, it seems like," said Umenyiora, who registered the only sack for the home team. "Today it was the big play. It’s ridiculous. We have to find a way to play better."
So, when does Sheridan go? Now, or later?
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the question is...
…have we hit rock bottom?
If yes, fire now; if firing will only throw things into greater disarray, then wait until the end of the season.
by Step up and make big plays on Dec 14, 2009 2:00 PM EST reply actions
…have we hit rock bottom?
Umm I think it’s safe to say we have, I mean how much worse could our D play, They can’t be counted on to stop a good division1 college offense
by Late for Dinner on Dec 14, 2009 2:48 PM EST up reply actions
What concerns me
On one play yesterday they had Boley drop back to safety and Kiwi to Linebacker with about 20 yards between them for Celek to roam free. I understand dropping D Lineman into coverage occasionally and blitzing a LB but what is the logic of dropping both? When times are tough get back to basics is — Let lineman rush and backers back. We are dropping D-lineman back way to much — no wonder we get NO PRESSURE
also, is it me or do Chris Canty and Rocky Bernard seem like major busts?
Only one play concerned you
How about playing zone Defense giving D. Jackson a free release off the line of scrimage and never double teaming the guy even after Maclin left the game. Even our 2 victories in the last 8 weeks the D has scared the crap out of us, Tony Romo and Matt Ryan had huge days, on us. We win games despite of our Defense and loose games because of the defense.
by Late for Dinner on Dec 14, 2009 2:52 PM EST up reply actions
No that's not the only thing
it’s just one of many. But it really bugs me. I have been a fan since 72 and I cannot remember a worse Defense and we had lots of 3 win seasons in there
I was just having a conversation with another Giant fan
You know Chris I go back to around 77 and I was chating with another fan that goes back to 80 and neither of us could remember a Giant Defense as bad as this one. I was wondering if some the the guys who go back further had ever seen somthing remotley this bad.
by Late for Dinner on Dec 14, 2009 4:07 PM EST up reply actions
As I recall
back in the 70s when I was a kid we would lose all the time but it was by scores like 14 to 6 and you could handle it because at least you had a hard hitting defense to be proud of.
I go back to '38 and can't recall
a D as pathetic as this one.
Oh, George
I think you have blacked out the entire miserable existence of what you like to call ‘The Wilderness Years.’ Some of those defenses were worse than this one, unless those years are just erased from Giants history. LOL!
by Ed Valentine on Dec 14, 2009 6:43 PM EST up reply actions
much like Super Bowl XXXV
the NFL inexplicably canceled all football games from 1962 through 1984. Strange…
"[The Giants] beat us down. We were beat by a grown-man team, a team we want to be like one day. They came in here and took it to us. Out-manned us, out-gunned us. ... It wasn't even close." - Raheem Morris, 9/27/09
only in new york
Remember that pervert Joe Willie? Can’t believe he got away with that stuff in the 70’s, not like he was an athlete or anything, and even if he was, I bet he’d throw more int’s than td’s
Never assume skill at bouncing a ball makes you smarter than the guy who built the court.
"Osi is probably one of our worst db's but he did alright there"
Bottom Line (as far as football goes):
He’s in pretty exclusive company, the HOF (only 23 QBs in the history of the league have made it.) Also, he was the gutsiest QB I can recall (outside of Bobby Layne). Most of the time he played the Jets were terrible. Joe got tossed around like a tackling dummy. He came into the league with one bad knee and played most of his career on bad wheels.
I know I was just kidding
Never assume skill at bouncing a ball makes you smarter than the guy who built the court.
"Osi is probably one of our worst db's but he did alright there"
He's the only QB in history to have..
The balls to guarantee a SB victory..and he followed through on it..I’ll never forget that game…and he still entertains from time to time..Especially when interviewed while ‘half-in-the-bag’..
Well, I haven't quantified it,
but I seriously don’t recall opponents racking up the kind of yardage and points they have this year. Now if you look at teams, yes, most of those in the Wilderness Years were worse, far worse than what we have this year.
Our O hasn’t set the world on fire, but it has kept us competitive when we’ve been competitive. In most of the WYs, both O & D were poor. Unless someone wants to go through the tedium of comparing the pertinent stats to prove the contrary, I stand by my assertion. Another thing, in the Wilderness Years we occasionally had some pro-bowlers, not including Brad Van Pelt , who was a perennial. There will be no one on this year’s D going to the pro bowl. Had he not been hurt, my guess is Tuck would have probably made it.
Those years were too grim to forget.
Yeah George..the wilderness years..
When did we ever see our offenses back then rack up 512 yards and lose?..Back then, we just lost..and had a player here and there that we’d root for each week..I don’t remember ever seeing them toss up numbers like that, do you?
No, I don't. One year they gave up + 500
points. It might have been during a 14 game season, so that was pretty bad, but still it was the result of total ineptness on BOTH sides of the ball. Anway, I’m sort of sorry I chimed in. I don’t relish the idea of comparing the current D to All-Time terrible Giants’ Ds.
I went back to
1978. The start of the 16 game season. Our worst defense was 1980. We allowed 425 points. This team might come close.
1966
Giants were 1-12-1 allowing 501 points. Almost 36 points per game. In one game we lost to the Skins 72-41.
Ironically, Spider Lockhart made the Pro Bowl.
Plus
They never had a defense that went from top 5 to bottom 5 in span of 2 years.
Your right, O was anemic as well. Ron Johnson was the first Giant jersey/poster i had as a kid. He was one of the bright spots in the early 70s.
Ron Johnson
in 1970 was first Giants RB to rush for 1000 yards. He repeated the feat in 1972.
I was right
I said I couldn’t remember a defense this bad and I started following the Gmen in 72 — turns out the last time the Giants gave up 40 points or more in 3 games was the 1971 season…..granted thats a pretty weak stat for measuring a defense but I’ll take it.
this D is bad
but keep in mind this is a A)passing league and B) the NFC was traditionally a black and blue running division in particular with no passing teams, now we have prolific offenses in the division(Philly, the Cowgirls, and us).
You've got a point there, but it wasn't as though there were no teams
that emphasized the pass, including the Giants just before the WYs.
PS
The real black and blue days were those before the intro of the T in the forties. I think the Giants were the last team to convert from the Single Wing. The Maras dumped Steve Owen because he stubbornly clung to his own version of the SW, the famed A formation.
It's certainly a variation.
when i was in HS, we used the ND Box (Rockne’s version of the SW) in my Freshman year. When the T came into the NFL, most of the coaches knew nothing about it (like Steve Owen) and most of the QBs as well (like Charlie Conerly, who I believe was a tailback in college.) Lot of TBs became QBs. The TBs were the primary passers in the SW.
true but those teams were generally out west
the Niners, the Raiders, Chargers, etc. Everyone once in a while the Cowboys would throw out a passing squad but this was a division based on 4 yards in a cloud of dust.
The WYs years extended from '64-'78
As long as Sherman was coach, the Giants focused on the pass. Ditto for the five years Tark was QB. During most of those years they were considered hopelss losers unable to establish much of a team personality. The Giants didn’t gain the reputation of a smashmouth running team until Parcells came (although they had that rep under Steve Owen as well.). Black and Blue referred to the intensity of the rivalry within the division, the fierceness of the games. During those years. the ‘boys and the ’skins were known for their passing, not so much their running. They featured two HOF QBs (Staubach and Jurgenson.) With Meredith, the ’boys were primarily a passing team. That leaves the Eagles, a passing team with Norm Snead, a four-time pro bowler (who later, washed up, the Giants brought in hoping to establish a passing game.) Later the Eagles had Roman Gabriel, a bomb thrower. IMO, the idea that the Division was four yards and a cloud of dust during the Wilderness Years in no more than a myth. Except for Tark, who was running for his life most of the time, the Giants couldn’t match the other division teams in terms of WBs or receivers, or anything else for that matter. Q
Well you would know about the Wilderness years
I was born in 1978 and my early memories of the Giants are the Parcells years.
And I'll add in those
the Cowboys were a running team, even when they had Aikman. The Redskins were too with the power traps with Rypien and the Eagles were an Vick Atlanta kinds of scrambling team with Randall. Zona came to get their ass beat 6 times basically.
How would you consider tark with the giants?
All wiki has about his time with NY is
" His efforts helped the Giants rally from the NFL’s basement (a 1-12-1 record in 1966) to better times."
I’d assume he at least made things interesting.
Never assume skill at bouncing a ball makes you smarter than the guy who built the court.
"Osi is probably one of our worst db's but he did alright there"
I think Tark was the most exciting player to watch
I’ve ever seen. A real wild man. More elusive than Flutie in the pocket, fantastic scrambler, daring passer, throwing on the dead run into double coverage (when the team was way down he went nuts trying to get them back in the game.) Actually, he spent most of his time with the Giants running for his life. During the WYs the Giants record was 74-188 They had two winning seasons and two .500 seasons. Tark was at the helm in one of the winning seasons and one of the .500 seasons during his five years, so you could say he brought them a certain semblance of respectability.
Yeah and he didn't take any crap from the defense..
If they pissed Fran off they could expect getting a ball zinged to the back of their head..He was the only excitement we had back then to look forward to..and George, remember Marty Glickman calling those games on the radio back then?..I used to love listening to him call the games..alot of them you had to listen to on the radio, and he always kept you on the edge of your seat..
Glickman was a great broadcaster.
He was a football All-American at Syracuse and was a track man in the ‘36 Olympics. He and Ben Stoller were pulled from the really team because they were Jewish and supposedly the American Olympic Committee members didn’t want to offend the host country, Hitler’s Germany. They were the only Jews on our team. The African-American memberd of the team weren’t pulled because there were a lot more of them, one of whom was Jesse Owens. Better than Marty even was his color guy, Al DeRogatis. A former Giants’ lineman, DeRo was the best ever, IMO.
Hmmm..
I didn’t know that AOC history..but your right I forgot about how good DeRo was as a color guy..What a tandem..
Somehow I'm realated to Al DeRogatis
I beleive he is my grandmothers 1st or second cousin. I swear to god about this I’m not making it up. My mother and my grandmother used to tell me this all of the time when I was a kid. They would say thats why I was a good football player when I was a little boy. To bad I stoped growing at 5 feet 8 inches.
He was a lot bigger than you, L,
about 6’5", around 240. Played DT (that’s LB size today, but DeRo probably never hit the weights.) He was good, too, as you probably know, All-American, All-Pro a couple of times, playing career cut short by injuries. Really smart. Madden(former O lineman) says the O linemen are the smartest guys on any FB team.
Yea I got the short genes
I have cousin’s on that side that are about 6 “4” so half the family is big the other are little like me.
Loved Tark
growing up Tarkenton was my favorite Giant. He was an exciting QB. I was crushed when the Giants traded him back to Minny. Naturally, he went to the 3 SBs after returning to Minny. Losing and playing poorly in all 3.
I agree.
Keep Sheridan here, maybe he can help in some way.
But strip away teh DC duties.
31 points on defense is what they let up. 31.
This isn’t the first time.
They sat veteran starters. It worked for a game…or at least they got a win out if it.
Now…they got trounced at home again where the offense played its ass of (….but shot itself in the foot too…).
They need to push farther.
Give the job to someone else.
Sheridan was promoted from within. Is there not someone else deserving?
There’s not a single unit playing well on D, so I dunno who it would be.
The radical thought….LET PIERCE RUN THE D!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"It ain't over till its over"---
How come no one covers Steve Smith?
stripping DC duties...
…is like taking play calling duties away from Jim Zorn — it’s a stop-gap solution until the end of the season when he is ultimately canned.
I wonder if there is any Sherm Lewis-esque mind on the defensive side of the ball that is currently pooling bingo balls at the seniors’ center whom we can tab as a “defensive consultant” for these last few games? ;)
by Step up and make big plays on Dec 14, 2009 2:31 PM EST up reply actions
How about LaVar Arrington?
It worked for Osi.
"We were very much aware of that. There was a lot of phone call-type things going on in the room." -- Tom Coughlin
Keep Sheridan here, maybe he can help in some way
He can help loading up the equipment and putting it on the bus. Other than that I don’t want this guy anywhere near Giant Stadium.
by Late for Dinner on Dec 14, 2009 3:09 PM EST up reply actions
+100
aside from your suggestion I’m not sure how BS could help.
The Rutgers D could have played better.
That was sandlot stuff. Check my posts from last week. They all say: “Brent Celek isn’t that good…until he plays the Giants.” And yet he was uncovered all night. And DeSean Jackson! How do you not cover him? And how do we give McNabb that much time in the pocket?
If you’re that lost – why not bring an all-out blitz every single play? Mind-boggling.
Speaking of mind-boggling – is Trent Cole the stupidest player in the NFL? He does something stupid every single week. He plays hard – but always always always draws a dumb penalty like that.
I left my swagger in my other pants.
Peter Giunta. Now.
He should have been the pick from the beginning. Unless we’re waiting for John Fox, fire Sheridan today and promote Giunta.
I left my swagger in my other pants.
The Giants secondary blows.
and he’s the secondary coach.
You want him as the DC?
"It ain't over till its over"---
How come no one covers Steve Smith?
by FreeBradshaw on Dec 14, 2009 2:32 PM EST up reply actions
our LB's were never anything to write home about either...
and we selected BS as our DC.
"If you don't know what you're doing... just rush the quarterback" - LT
@ this point
Yes I don’t care, I have seen enough of this guy to know he has no idea what he is doing.
by Late for Dinner on Dec 14, 2009 3:07 PM EST up reply actions
+100000
with how bad our Dbacks have played Giunta is not the answer.
given my druthers
at this point I’d take Giunta.
A good point, but
I think the DC is making calls that keep them out of position. Or he’s making them overthink things. SOMETHING. What else could explain them being that far out of position, that many times? Giunta’s been around the Giants since the earth was cooling. I bet he’d be all right. I’m just so disgusted with the D right now, I’d put the headset on my sister’s black Lab if I could.
I still want Fox back, though.
I left my swagger in my other pants.
Hugh, this is a joke right?
Guinta is second on my ‘train ticket out of town list’..right behind Sheridan.
First things first.
Hire Trump.
Let him fire Sheridan.
Then fire Trump.
"We were very much aware of that. There was a lot of phone call-type things going on in the room." -- Tom Coughlin
Sheridan should have been fired 5 weeks ago!!!!!
Why prolong theinevitable, let’s get rid of this guy and go with Giunta for the rest of the season, It can’t hurt how much worse can we be?
by Late for Dinner on Dec 14, 2009 2:32 PM EST reply actions
Bye Bye BS...
I relieve him of his duties and I nominate Guinta to take over.
The reason being…well, we’re at the end of the year and Sheridan is still as lost as he was during pre season. His schemes aren’t working and now i’m seeing guys dropping some 30 yards into coverage. He still can’t find a way to get to the QB and his secondary is still a mess.
Get Guinta in there in hopes that at the very least he can get this secondary on the same page with one another.
I wouldn’t even give BS his old job back…I would say thanks for the memories, you can take the stairs or the window…it’s up to you.
"If you don't know what you're doing... just rush the quarterback" - LT
Sheridan
is a very smart man IMO, which is part of the problem. He’s a thinker and he has his players thinking instead of doing. You can almost see their collective wheels turning on every play….Should I do this? or Should I do that? He has them thinking and re-thinking instead of acting and reacting. A change must be made.
talks about BS is all BS...
most dudes was praising BS when they beat the cowboys now everybody wants his head… lets face it bernard and canty havnt dont squat the whole yr… i got an idea… maybe we should trade bill sheridan for rex ryan….
What good does firing right now do?
Before you say it can’t be any worse… I imagine it very well could (scary thought I know). If it were yup to me (and I was TC), I would take him aside, explain to him that these last three games are his auditioning for his job next year. You have to go out there, do whatever it takes, get the points against down, and give the offense some help in wining a game.
Unless he absolutely blows everyone away, he is a dead man regardless, but if he actually does something, it might be enough to get the team into the play-offs, leaking oil and all. I know, that sounds like a great way to really lose his efforts, but if he folds the you get a definitive answer moving forward about the validity of his coaching capabilities.
I imagine it very well could (scary thought I know).
What we give up 40 points in the first half instead of 30. Look we are all savy enough to know even if we make the playoffs this team is going nowhere fast. I have seen enough of BS to know he will not be prepared for whatever the Redskins, Panthers, Vikings, fill in the blank throw at him, and if we win it will be becasue of Eli and the offense.
We have hit rock bottom we have won 2 games in the last 8 weeks, in 5 of the now 6 losses and counting the D has been the main suspect. The cardinial loss i will not pin on the D entirley but they had a hand in it.
by Late for Dinner on Dec 14, 2009 3:00 PM EST up reply actions
I agree
Can’t fire him now. Simply cannot.
The thing I can’t understand is this: San Diego has a high-powered offense. They have big WR’s, a big-play TE, a hall of fame RB, and a solid QB. And somehow, the Giants “held” them to 20.
Then against a 2nd yr WR who has serious speed and against a team that never established the running game……the Giants get torched for 45 pts?
Pierce as D-Coordinator.
Let Sheridan go home.
GIVE A.P. the headset!
He’d love it too, I’m sure.
too soon....
way too soon.
I’d give him a job, but not DC.
"If you don't know what you're doing... just rush the quarterback" - LT
somehow, the Giants "held" them to 20.
Yeah and let them march down the field in the last 2 mins of the game without a third down conversion and score the winning td. You know kind of like the did yesterday
by Late for Dinner on Dec 14, 2009 3:19 PM EST reply actions
I Called For Sheridan To Be Fired During The Bye Week
Now it might be too late to get any good result from it. Peter King said he would be “shocked” if TC didn’t fire Sheridan at the end of the year. I will go one further. JR and Mara should tell TC at the end of the year, “either Sheridan goes or you both go.”
I agree about the front office
they are trying to sell PSL’s so they want a good product out there so BS will have to go whether TC likes it or not. They just better not be cheap and refuse to hire a proven commodity becasue they don’t belive in paying assistants that much. I have a feeling thats what they’ll do maybe it’ll work out and they’ll find another Spags type but who knows.
They can't fire him now
who would take over? Waffel is a D-Line coach and has never been a coordinator. Guinta? If they did not feel he was better than Sheidan for the job how good will he be now and he might have a totally different scheme than Sheridan and with 3 weeks left it would be tough to implement a new scheme. TC is an offensive coach so it’s not like he can take over. Wait till the offseason to make a move. It’ll be Jauron unless Fox gets canned and can’t get a HC job which I doubt will happen, he’s too good of a HC to not get another job. Jauron would be an upgrade I guess but to be honest he’s never really distinguished himself in this league. His defeneses were not good in Jacksonville when he was a DC and they were not any good with the BEars or Bills as a head coach. I would love for Fox to find his way here again he knows what to do with players and he’ll get a lot out of Tuck like he did with a young Strahan in the late 90’s
The time is now
to let BS go, I dont care who they give the job to the rest of the year, it cant get any worse, yes i said it, give the job to the equipment manager for all I care, this is the worst defense I have ever seen a Giants team play and Ive been watching since the late 60’s and we had some pretty bad teams in the 70’s but no defense looked so lost, so out of order, and I cant beleive TC let it get this bad without doing something. Even if we make the playoffs, we will not be a serious threat without a major change in philosophy on D, it cant hurt, cant be worse then pathetic which is what the D is right now, PATHETIC!
by BigBlueCrew_jfl on Dec 14, 2009 3:31 PM EST reply actions
Jauron Looks Older Than Dirt
It is time for him to be put out to pasture, not coach the Giant defense.
So what
The guy has a proven track record as a D coordinator, we should at least talk to him.
by Late for Dinner on Dec 14, 2009 3:33 PM EST up reply actions
No he does'nt
He was a DC in Jacksonville under TC and the D was always the week spot until 99 when Capers took over. His D’s stunk with the Bears and in Buffalo when he was HC. He’s just one of those NFL lifers thats well respected and well spoken but has never really done much. If Wade Phillips got fired I’d take him in a second over Jauron as a DC.
that would mean going to a 3-4
and I really do not think we should go to a 3-4
Never assume skill at bouncing a ball makes you smarter than the guy who built the court.
"Osi is probably one of our worst db's but he did alright there"
I know
but if we got Phillips, that’s what we’d be changing to.
I’m against it too. Just saying that.
Never assume skill at bouncing a ball makes you smarter than the guy who built the court.
"Osi is probably one of our worst db's but he did alright there"
Not a big fan of coach cupcake?
Dallas D has been overated since he has been here, most of the time they play great but in big games they don’t show up. I would have to pass on him.
by Late for Dinner on Dec 15, 2009 3:32 PM EST up reply actions
I'm sure he's great as a defensive coordinator
I’m just not for a 3-4, something we’d have to change to get Phillips to coach.
And I’d rather stay 4-3, I don’t like the 3-4 too much.
Never assume skill at bouncing a ball makes you smarter than the guy who built the court.
"Osi is probably one of our worst db's but he did alright there"
Give A.P. the headset!
You know he can run this defense better even from the sideline.
i voted no
just because i generally dont believe in firing coaches mid-season.
i’ll C&P from my comment in the fan post:
the D looked awful.
the Giants’ D is actually not bad, allowing 307 yds/game (9th best in the NFL), but they give up a shitload of points (obviously part of that is on the ST and offense), because their D seems to give up a huge number of ‘big’ plays. the Jints allow 25.4 pts/game, 5th worst in the NFL (the only teams worse are the pathetic Lions, Bucs, Rams & Chiefs).
a big part of that is the atrocious Red Zone D (last in the NFL). what to do? is Bill Sheridan the long-term answer at DC? will he return next year?
sure, there’ve been a lot of injuries (KP, AP, Ross, Boley, Canty, etc.), but they still have plenty of talent to have at least a solid D. what is going on?
A Good Coordinator
Would be able to take 11 guys off the street and have them playing better defense than this unit is playing. This unit is 22 months removed from being the best defense in the league during the 2007 playoffs. Yes, they lost Strahan. He was the only difference maker they lost from then until now. Pierce shouldn’t even count because they were playing awful this year with him.
Sheridan cannot return next year. And if Coughlin gets stubborn about it he will need to be fired too.
this is a terrible defense.
fire him now. this is the worst i have seen the giants D play in a while, they should not lose a game in which they score 35pts with 500+ yds. their D is terrible to look at, FIRE HIM NOW!!!!! they need to do something to turn around their D, if they can they can still get the 6th seed, and we al know what happened the last time they were the sixth seed (and the colts are undefeted, just saying, it would be cool).
"Yes we lost and yes we are upset. But like all Champs we will bounce back."
Osi umenyiora
by donnybaseball23 on Dec 14, 2009 3:42 PM EST reply actions
I voted YES
HC often take over play calling. We mostly hear about it when it’s on offense. The D is terrible. BS isn’t getting the job done. We have nothing to lose.
Embarassing effort from one of the most dominant D's of the past 25 years
I am beside myself when I see this D on the field, I know we have injuries but so do all teams. Sheridan schemes or whatever the hell you call them dont work we look like and play like a bunch of inept fools out there I know people have been knockin Osi lately but I keep wondering what was said in preseason that caused Osi to leave was this the start of a much bigger problem ?? I am starting to think the players are being forced to play in schemes that just are not in their skill set I cant find any other reason why such a talented group look so lost one play they look great the next youve got linebackers and defensive backs playing were corners should be and corners positioned to get a great view of the offense scoring,so yeah send Sheridan packing
Agree
you don’t make good players into crap players overnight. They haven’t all suddenly contracted a mysterious dementing disorder that robs them of their cognitive capacity and playing abilty. I agree with you Greg, I think they are being asked to play schemes that they are not suited for … or that are badly thought out and don’t make sense.
He was like a god walking amongst mere mortals. He had a voice that could make a wolverine purr and suits so fine they made Sinatra look like a hobo.
Wow, nearly 90% say "Yes"
That surprises me. I see no real benefit removing BS now. I cannot think that it will make the slightest difference to the way the season turns out. G-Men may get to the post season, but only because Dallas fail, not because the Giants suddenly turn things around. It is too late for that. If we get to the playoff it will be a struggle whether BS is there or not. Removing him now can only bring further disruption. I hear you say that this may be a good thing, but I think it will be bad disruption (chaotic), not the good type. I voted for leaving BS there until the season finishes, just let it follow its own course.
By the way, found that great little Applet on www.nfl-forecast.com which gives the Giants a good chance of making the playoffs with 9 wins. Looks like that would take us to Philly for a rematch!
He was like a god walking amongst mere mortals. He had a voice that could make a wolverine purr and suits so fine they made Sinatra look like a hobo.
I see no real benefit removing BS now
Ask yourself this question what is the benfit of keeping him. Do you think the light switch will suddenly go on? I think most of us feel like our season is going down the tubes with Sheridan so if it goes down the tubes with another guy what’s the diffrence. Maybe the new guy helps, if not, no big deal.
by Late for Dinner on Dec 14, 2009 4:24 PM EST up reply actions
I don't expect miracles
but what will a new guy do … “Listen up defense. You have been playing like a bunch of pre-schoolers. I know you are better than that, its the schemes that are rubbish. So, forget the playbook you have been using so far. Here is a new one to learn, just get out there for this Wildcard Weekend game and stick it to the Eagles.” This mess is Sheridan’s, I think he should keep working to tidy it up, or go down with the sinking ship.
He was like a god walking amongst mere mortals. He had a voice that could make a wolverine purr and suits so fine they made Sinatra look like a hobo.
The new guy
whom maybe he will say you know that Deshawn Jackson guy is eating us up alive maybe we should DOUBLE COVER HIM
OR
maybe he will say you know we really have not been able to sustain a consistant pass rush all season so I am going scrap all the zone coverage.
OR
maybe he will say, you know, Osi, Kiwi, Tuck and Canty really can’t cover the flat that good so I am just gonna have them rush the passer.
by Late for Dinner on Dec 14, 2009 4:41 PM EST up reply actions
Yeh, look I agree
one would expect that any DC would be able to see those things and get them sorted out. BS has failed in at least one of those two tasks, and maybe in both. But I don’t think he is intellectually impaired, like IQ <70 type impaired, and I don’t think TC is either. This suggests that the problems run a bit deeper and are likely to take a little longer to fix. If it was just a matter of doubling DeShawn Jackson then it would be easy, at least the planning would be even if the execution isn’t. A new DC at this stage would be like ‘rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic’.
He was like a god walking amongst mere mortals. He had a voice that could make a wolverine purr and suits so fine they made Sinatra look like a hobo.
the reason I voted no
is because Jerry Reese and Tom Coughlin decided before the season that Bill Sheridan was the best guy within the ranks to run the defense. Obviously they rated him above the guys whose names are now being mentioned. We’d just be losing a guy and throwing things into further disarray, unless there’s some secretly brilliant mind back there who could turn things totally around in 3 weeks — but I’m not confident that mind is there. I’d rather ride out this season in the hopes that a real, proven, NFL caliber defensive mind would be available. Hell, send Sheridan back to LB coach for all I care. I think we’re setting our hopes unrealistically high with the John Fox talk, but there are guys out there. Dick Jauron might be the best we could hope for. OK, Bill Belichick would be the best we could hope for, but you get my drift.
You play to win the game!
Do you have a view on this Ed?
You have often been the sole voice of support for both BS and KG on this site. Given that the rating is 8/10 in favour of getting rid of him now rather than wait, do you have any good reasons why he should stay?
He was like a god walking amongst mere mortals. He had a voice that could make a wolverine purr and suits so fine they made Sinatra look like a hobo.
The fact that Ed even posted this article on the board for debate says volumes
We all love Ed on this board, and he is the absolute last guy who blames the coaches. But Sheridan is really making a strong case to get Sh!t canned
by Late for Dinner on Dec 14, 2009 4:28 PM EST up reply actions
I think he is already canned
the question is when to flush.
He was like a god walking amongst mere mortals. He had a voice that could make a wolverine purr and suits so fine they made Sinatra look like a hobo.
the question is when to flush
LMAO, I say flush now, light a match and walk out of there fast and pretend it never happend!
by Late for Dinner on Dec 14, 2009 4:36 PM EST up reply actions
you've done this before haven't you.
He was like a god walking amongst mere mortals. He had a voice that could make a wolverine purr and suits so fine they made Sinatra look like a hobo.
Reflecting back
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/18/sports/football/18giants.html
it’s kinda funny going back and rereading this article
haha
the ‘minute differences’ between Spags and Sheridan are that Spags had a D that was making plays, and Sheridan has a D that has completely fallen off the edge — a group of 11 guys that has far less talent than I think a lot of us are giving them credit for.
does anyone, ANYONE, feel bad for Sheridan at this point? Aren’t these comparisons unfair? Ed? :)
Jerry Reese and Tom Coughlin decided before the season that Bill Sheridan was the best guy
Obviously they also made a mistake in thinking he was ready for the job! I think the point of all of us yes folks is Sheridan is totally in over his head and is bringing us down with him. We already know we are going down with BS so why not let someone else try their hand the worse thing that can happen is we keep going down. At this point I am officially missing Tim Lewis,
by Late for Dinner on Dec 14, 2009 4:19 PM EST reply actions
I wonder, has Al Groh found gainful employment yet?
The organization knows him well, he has been successful coaching D at the pro level, and maybe we would see more results from those familiar with his system like Canty and Sintim…
by Step up and make big plays on Dec 14, 2009 4:26 PM EST reply actions
If anyone knows me
I’ve usually been the super-optimistic guy who says its going to get better, just wait until we turn the corner. It’s been a month and a half I’ve been saying that
We’ve given sheridan time to not suck anymore
It’s time something happens.
I’m not for rash decisions, but something needs to be done now. Anything, if it means firing sheridan, stripping his playcall duties, promoting pierce, anything. It needs to be done.
We can still make the wildcard, and I fully expect we do. We won’t make a run when the other teams we’re most likely to face are pass happy teams in domes. Can’t expect eli to have a career day every day. Usually when you have career passing days, you lose.
Let’s do something and show some giants pride
Never assume skill at bouncing a ball makes you smarter than the guy who built the court.
"Osi is probably one of our worst db's but he did alright there"
Coughlin threw his full support behind Sheridan
Well this debate is dead, Giants are sticking with Sheridan the rest of the way.
by Late for Dinner on Dec 14, 2009 5:24 PM EST reply actions
a buddy of mine pointed this out....
the giants are mathematically alive….if your going to give BS the rest of the year that might as well get behind him.
i’d be interested in hearing what coughlin’s plan would be had this been an elimination game.
"If you don't know what you're doing... just rush the quarterback" - LT
Same players?
I’ll agree that Sheridan has been subpar, but saying that these are “most of the same players” as the team that sacked McNabb 12 times in 2007 is horribly misleading. That team had Strahan and a pre-injury Osi. It had Pierce, Mitchell, and Torbor at LB, Wilson and Butler at safety, and Ross playing corner.
The biggest problem with our D now – the lack of a pass rush – is directly a result of having 1 defensive end who’s a shell of his former self due to a career-threatening injury, and another who’s been hobbled all year ever since Flozell Adams tripped him. I’m not saying this absolves Sheridan, but I don’t think you can compare this unit to the one that one the Super Bowl. (And even if you can, that unit got lit up plenty during the season; it just pulled it all together at the right time.)
by dontstopbelieving on Dec 14, 2009 5:25 PM EST reply actions
Need Blood
At this point, The Giants could not do worse with some young new blood for the DO job.
New idea’s are needed now. The season is lose. So now is a good time for someone new.
new ideas?
You think they’ll be able to ‘learn new ideas’ in less than a week?
"It ain't over till its over"---
How come no one covers Steve Smith?
by FreeBradshaw on Dec 14, 2009 6:29 PM EST up reply actions
Spags ain't getting fired.....
"It ain't over till its over"---
How come no one covers Steve Smith?
by FreeBradshaw on Dec 14, 2009 6:28 PM EST up reply actions
Wait
It’s not like their is someone in the staff who is clear pick to replace him. The next DC needs to be from the outside.
Jerry can take him.
We’ll make Wade our DC.
I dunno about taht….Sheridan “beat” the Cowboys twice..tho, the defense wasn’t much reason for it.
"It ain't over till its over"---
How come no one covers Steve Smith?
by FreeBradshaw on Dec 14, 2009 7:50 PM EST up reply actions
No one has mentioned it,
but wouldn’t firing him be tantamount to conceding that the season’s over? Once we’re eliminated mathematically from the playoffs, firing might be feasible. We could concede the season’s over, get a better look at the younguns, start retooling, etc.
I voted yes...but
it’s out of pure frustration. I’m disgusted watching Sheridan’s defense blaspheme all that’s holy to a die hard Giants fan. But I know that firing him now would likely create more havoc, so it’s best to run out the string and get serious in the off-season about finding a real professional to reestablish our defensive creed. Though the thought of promoting Pierce is intriguing. But he’s the only one that I would consider promoting from within.
Hell, I’ve suffered through some tough years and literally watched years being peeled off of my life! I figure I can handle three (or four) more games of this subpar defense.
Bloozer
AP could very well be a good coach
some day. He has to learn his trade the way all good coaches do: by coaching. You don’t start just below the top as a D co-ord in the pros.
Now that is ridiculously funny!!..a Petition???..Gawd!!
This ain’t Green Bay…the only thing the Giants want from us is to buy tickets and tee-shirts fro chrissakes.
Gee, I have an idea:
Let’s all chip in and hire a plane to fly over the field on Sunday carrying a banner that reads…
What’s that? Already done? Oh. Never tried. But wait—did it work?
gee. You already got 64 signatures
Well done … but totally pointless.
He was like a god walking amongst mere mortals. He had a voice that could make a wolverine purr and suits so fine they made Sinatra look like a hobo.
You have to be kidding me
a petition REALLY????
I am done with Sheridan but that is just stupid
I enjoy the banter in this room but a petition is just ridiculous
agreed
the giant’s front office is not listening to some petition. The man knows the handwriting is on the wall let him finish the season for god’s sake it’s not like this D is turning into the 85 Bears with Peter Giunta as D-Coordinator.
Are we Browns fans?
A petition? Come on, thats what you do when you want the cafeteria to serve Peach Snapple.
DB
My $.02
Sheridan is as lost as an acorn in tall grass.
We didn't even have a chance for the "perfect season", but we did have the perfect ending.
CC Brown, Michael Johsnon
…lost as an acorn.
Aaron Rouse, not bad. Aaron Ross, out of position.
There’s a team in Pittsburgh in disaray cuz their safety has been out for a while.
Is KP…TP? I’m not sure how close it is…but KP sure as hell masked a whole lot in the defensive secondary.
We do not have that sort of ball hawk who knows everything back there.
People who think the KP loss is bigger than we all think…well…it may be even bigger than that.
"It ain't over till its over"---
How come no one covers Steve Smith?
by FreeBradshaw on Dec 14, 2009 8:53 PM EST up reply actions
Safety Position
In the modern NFL the safety position is crucial because you can’t really jam receivers so if your corner is not name Revis, Ashmonah or Bailey he’s getting burned a lot and a good safety needs to be in position.
THats a good point
and I also think because of the rules thats why teams are better suited to bring in Pass rushers rather than great CB’s becasue as a defense you have a better chance of disrupting the timing and rythm of an O rushing guys than you do with great CB play, see 07 Giants vs Pats.
Also CB's are hard to find
It used to be if your were small they made you a DB instead of WR but now you can touch these guys on the line so the small WR can be successful(Steve Smith(CAR), Jackson, Welker, etc).
Sheridan Resume
My name is Bill Sheridan and I have just been fired after 1yr as the Defensive Coordinator of the NY Giants. I am applying for a new job and this is my resume.
I have the following ; no motivation skills, no intelligence, no fire, no schemes that work, and no heart for the job. I specialize in leaving the middle of the field wide open. I use only one safety to cover deep routs, but the best scheme I came up with was to drop my lineman in coverage on passing plays.
PS I can take a Superbowl caliber defense and can make it suck in less than a year.
Signed: Bill ( I haven’t got a clue ) Sheridan
John Fox will be out at Carolina at the end of the year, can we please get him back!
56GIANT56
Giants D was not SB caliber...
2007 they were.
3/4 of 2008 they were.
They were not SB caliber.
Talent….misjudged.
Sheridan probably takes the fall, but he’s far from someone with ‘no intelligence’, probably too much intelligence, guys are over-thinking out there and that’s probably cuz he’s in their ear too much.
EXPERIENCE.
Spags was around Jim Johnson for years. JJ was one of the best teachers of defense.
Spags…..probably too, but I’d think in his 2 years, he couldn’t give Sheridan a ton of knowledge.
"It ain't over till its over"---
How come no one covers Steve Smith?
by FreeBradshaw on Dec 15, 2009 12:06 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah, and initials are perfect for his resume title...BS
Translation: “Bull-Shit”…Everybody says he is a great Xs and Os guy….In what I ask…Tic-Tac-Toe?…
YES OBVIOUSLY HE NEEDS TO GO!
were 28th in the league in points allowed. Last year, without Umenyiora, without Strahan, with a rookie KP21 who only played in nickel situations, with less DT depth, we were 5th in the league in points allowed.
We went from giving up 18.4 ppg to 25.4 ppg. The personnel is probably better this year than last so it has to be the coaches.
by mclaren_is_the_best on Dec 15, 2009 12:14 AM EST reply actions
Forgot to mention
If TC doesn’t think Sheridan needs to go after this season then it’s time to for TC to go as well
by mclaren_is_the_best on Dec 15, 2009 12:16 AM EST up reply actions
We're stuck
with BS the rest of this year, so in other words, this season is over, making the playoffs would just be a tease and lower out draft pick, sp BS do the same old BS you have been doing and get us a better draft pick then any of us expected and hopefully you will be rewarded with your pink slip at the end of this long season, and if you done get fired, then I have to say, and i cant beleive I’m saying this, then TC must be fired also, loyalty is a virtue, but this league is about winning and we arent doing that like we should be.
by BigBlueCrew_jfl on Dec 15, 2009 12:50 AM EST reply actions
coughlin
isn’t the problem, he hasn’t lost the team. the team isn’t in complete disarray, its a brand new coordinator who didn’t get the job done. it happens, not every hire can be a perfect one.
if however, coughlin hangs onto sheridan for next year and is stubborn about admitting he made a mistake then we’ll see a locker room split. in that case, if TC loses the team over his decisions then it’ll be a lost cause.
I agree
if we miss the playoffs we have a pretty good chance of drafting Rolando McClain. He is a beast
by mclaren_is_the_best on Dec 15, 2009 1:54 AM EST up reply actions
Dunno...
he’s going top 10, possible top 5. He is a bit too much beast for our pick, no matter where it is.
"It ain't over till its over"---
How come no one covers Steve Smith?
by FreeBradshaw on Dec 15, 2009 8:50 AM EST up reply actions
Hes got top 10 talent but from the bad teams nobody needs an MLB. Denver (from Chicago) might be the only ones but I think they will probably go in a different direction as well.
by mclaren_is_the_best on Dec 15, 2009 11:03 AM EST up reply actions
The Cheifs could use a player like him.
they’re drafting top 5.
"It ain't over till its over"---
How come no one covers Steve Smith?
by FreeBradshaw on Dec 15, 2009 7:40 PM EST up reply actions
I guess its possible but the Chiefs are more likely to go OT, MLBs almost never go in the top 5
by mclaren_is_the_best on Dec 15, 2009 8:12 PM EST up reply actions
Pioli was there
with the Patriots when they got Jerrod Mayo in the top 10.
They traded back for him (which is certainly possible with the Chiefs).
either way…Rolando McClain will be long gone.
The Giants, if they want a first round MLB, will be stuck with Brandon Spikes.
I pass.
I’d rather go for Greg Jones or Quan Sturdivant in round 2/3 if they come out AND the Giants want to draft a MLB (I like Goff as our MLB….) OR the Giants don’t sign a MLB.
I’d rather sign a MLB and safety, maybe shell out a bit more and not make a potential type move that Canty was (and its really not working out too well).
I’d rather use the draft to get a player like CJ Spiller.
An impact player. He could help the offense, could take the place potentially of Bradshaw (FreeSpiller?) and be our Desean Jackson type ST return guy..which we need.
"It ain't over till its over"---
3rd down + Steve Smith = 1st Down.
by FreeBradshaw on Dec 15, 2009 8:25 PM EST up reply actions
Get rid of him now..ASAP
They don’t have a DC anyway..Hell I could throw 11 players out there that definitely have no clue…Just have somebody tell eleven guys to go out there..and tell them to make every effort to not get too many grass stains on the ass-end of their uniforms because the laundry bill is over budget. this year.
..And..
They say Sheridan harped on Jackson all week?..Your kidding me..where were the hits on him at the LOS..Where were the double coverages..If you can’t cover Celek with one guy then find other employment..just don’t send an application to me..I have enough nit-wits..Geezus, I am still suffering from PGSS (Post Giants Stress Syndrome)…and oh man, when I saw Goff out there looking like a deer in headlights trying to relay signals after the damn ball was snapped…Hey, Bill!!..You got a rookie out there you idiot!!..Help the kid out Mr. Cerebral…APs neck bulge is never going to go down..it is probably getting worse.
Don't bash the D to bad
Most here are correct about the D, they are 100% not playing G-Men D. But with that said, in my mind the game was going to be up to the better offense either way, lets be real, Philly’s D wasn’t exactly getting the job done!! The G-men appeared to be able to score with relative ease. The way I see it the game was decided at this point of the game -
3rd Quarter
Philadelphia – 2:45
1st-10, PHI33 2:45 L. Weaver rushed to the left for 3 yard loss
2nd-13, PHI30 2:08 D. McNabb passed to D. Jackson to the right for 6 yard gain
3rd-7, PHI36 1:36 D. McNabb incomplete pass to the left
4th-7, PHI36 1:16 S. Rocca punt. D. Hixon returned punt for 7 yards
FINALLY GOT A STOP it’s philly 37 – gmen 31******
At this point if TC wakes up and realizes he has to seize this wild offensive game, things would be different right now.
3rd Quarter
NY Giants – 1:16
1st-10, NYG25 1:16 A. Bradshaw rushed to the left for 1 yard loss
2nd-11, NYG24 0:31 A. Bradshaw rushed to the left for 1 yard gain
4th Quarter
NY Giants continued
3rd-10, NYG25 15:00 E. Manning passed to K. Boss to the right for 12 yard gain. PHI committed 15 yard penalty
1st-10, PHI48 14:39 E. Manning passed to M. Hedgecock to the right for 5 yard gain
2nd-5, PHI43 14:06 E. Manning incomplete pass down the middle
3rd-5, PHI43 13:56 A. Bradshaw rushed to the left for no gain
4th-5, PHI43 13:12 J. Feagles punt, no return
Did I miss something or did Bradshaw get stuffed on 1st and 2nd, did we not get two pass completions for good yardage on that drive, not to mention Philly was venerable to the pass all day long???? Are you F!@#$$% kidding me, THROW THE DAMN BALL on 3rd down and 5, Eli was hot! (don’t get that too often!). Also because neither defense was playing good a coach of Belichick, Parcells, Sean Payton, etc.. caliber would have realized at Philly’s 43 you’ve actually got 4 downs to try to get into field goal range on this drive. If you don’t get some type of score, they are def gonna come back and put points on the board, plain and simple, no matter were they start on the field. Wake up TC It was an OFFENSIVE game, the D for BOTH teams was horrible.
This is when we lost the game
1-10-PHI 40 (5:06) (Shotgun) 5-D.McNabb pass deep left to 10-D.Jackson for 60 yards, TOUCHDOWN
by mclaren_is_the_best on Dec 15, 2009 11:07 AM EST up reply actions
Lost the game
3rd and 5 on the Eagles side of the field and we run Bradshaw, punt… We needed a touchdown on that drive, if only Boss could of caught that ball on 2nd and 5 :(
NO!!!!!!
its not.
Boss’ drop.
Boley cluster FK play.
Eli fumble after the Goff INT.
This is how we lost the game. Giving it back to the Eagles…when the defense made a stop.
"It ain't over till its over"---
How come no one covers Steve Smith?
by FreeBradshaw on Dec 15, 2009 7:41 PM EST up reply actions
aka...
that drop down the middle….that was not just “incomplete pass down the middle”.
That was a perfect pass taht was dropped by a supposedly sure-handed TE.
The 3rd down play shouldn’t have happpend..cuz it was 1st and 10 at the 20 yard line…BOSS….CATCH THE DAMN BALL.
…also..more “CATCH THE DAMN BALL” furiousness.
Steve Smtih…had a TD catch…that he DROPPED. The Giants scored later on this drive…yet, Kareem McKenzie, following the Smith drop, got injured.
CATCH THE DAMN BALL…McKenzie doesn’t get hurt.
"It ain't over till its over"---
How come no one covers Steve Smith?
by FreeBradshaw on Dec 15, 2009 7:44 PM EST up reply actions
Nice analysis NYCGMEN..
Bottom-line 45- 38..We lost and the defense stinks..they stopped everything but the big plays..They stink..period
sorry...
Bobbi…
defense made plays.
Offense gave the ball back. Defense forced a turnover…but the ensuing cluster FK…the eagles kept the ball, and scored a TD.
"It ain't over till its over"---
How come no one covers Steve Smith?
by FreeBradshaw on Dec 15, 2009 7:42 PM EST up reply actions
Sheridan out -- Banks in
Sheriden is terrible, has little support from his crew and doesn’t maximize the talent he has.
I am suggesting that Carl Banks be given serious consideration for the job. He seems to be quite knowledgeable about defense, would be credible since he is a Giant’s legend, an All-Pro, Super Bowl winner, and a 1980s ALL NFL Team of the Decade member as a linebacker for a very good defense. He knows the team as a radio and TV analyst and should have little trouble assuming the job.
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