Will the real New York Giants please stand up?
by Ed Valentine on Oct 27, 2009 7:45 AM EDT
in New York Giants News
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PrintIn all of Monday's gnashing of teeth over the back-to-back losses suffered by our New York Giants I think 'Hootman' may have asked the question that is the one we should be spending most of our time debating. And that the Giants players and coaches should, quite honestly, be asking themselves.
"Have the Giants lost their identity?"
It is a valid question, and one to which I think the answer -- at least to some degree -- is yes. To be honest, I think this issue had begun to surface even before the losses. What type of team, exactly, are the Giants trying to be? Right now, I can't tell you. I can tell you this, though. Great teams have a signature, a style. A 'this is what we do and you can't do anything about it' attitude.
The Giants don't have that. In the very recent past, like last season, they HAVE had it. Not right now, however.
Ralph Vacchiano of the New York Daily News summarized it this way.
I don’t know what the Giants are supposed to be anymore. And I’m not sure they know either.
Are they a power running team? A passing team? A team led by a blitzing defense? What’s their true identity? And why does it seem to change week to week?
For now, let's talk about offense. We have spent lots of time -- particularly last week -- talking about the Giants defense. Most of Sunday night's issues were offensive, however.
So, have the Giants lost their identity on offense? By reputation, they are a power-running football team that uses Brandon Jacobs, Ahmad Bradshaw and a terrific offensive line to dominate the time of possession and wear down opposing defenses.
In 2008 the Giants led the league in rushing by averagin g 157.4 yards per game (5 yards per carry). Both Jacobs and Derrick Ward surpassed 1,000 yards. This season the Giants are fifth in the league with 141.9 yards per game, and 4.4 per carry. Still good, but not the same.
The numbers also say that -- for the season -- the Giants are actually running the ball more often than they did in 2008. An average of 32.1 rushing attempts this season, vs. 31.4 last season.
We know, though, that the past two weeks the Giants have gotten away from what they do best.
- A paltry 19 running plays (just seven for Jacobs) in the loss to New Orleans.
- Just 26 running plays against Arizona, 13 for Jacobs.
Coach Tom Coughlin knows it, too.
"We had 26 runs. We were not playing from behind. I would like to have had more. You are always thinking 30-35 runs to be truly balanced. To be honest with you, you have to realize in the middle of the game, there was eight in the box most of the time and seven in the box when we were three wide. So the initial look for the quarterback is that the run gaps were filled. You would like to be 50/50, it just didn’t work out," Coughlin said.
What about all those deep shots down the field, instead of run plays or short passes designed to maintain possession? Coughlin defended some of those plays, but even he was critical of the much-discussed long ball to Mario Manningham on a 3rd and two situation.
"He (Manning) did have a higher percentage type of play. If you go back to the second and two, it was a run call. It is because of what he saw that he went to the alert, the alert was a pass and it was tipped," Coughlin said. "Yes, no doubt, make the first down, please make the first down and then we will think about the next three calls. Another night, you get that matchup, he sticks it in there, it is a touchdown and everybody is happy. Last night, not the way it goes."
Coughlin said the wide receivers simply have to start winning some of the one-on-one battles.
"You would like to be able to take advantage of whatever the opponent does. If he is going to play people down like that and he is going to be one-on-one, then you have to win the one-on-one battles on the outside. We took a shot at the deep post ball, it didn’t turn out in our favor, but it was one-on-one, and I think at the very least we could have knocked that ball down and they wouldn’t have gotten it," Coughlin said. "You get a bunch of really good plays (by the receivers) and then there is a bad play. The bad play unfortunately the last two weeks has shown up as big as you can get. It is an unfortunate drop because that is a touchdown. Now it is a field goal game. Now maybe Bradshaw is at the forty-yard line. It just goes to show you how important every snap is and how you can’t give a snap away. You cannot give one away, on either side of the ball."
Coughlin is right about the receiver issues. The Giants have to be able to win in single coverage, and right now they are not doing it often enough. He is also right that they need to get back to running the ball, particularly using Jacobs more. There is no excuse for him to have just 20 carries the past two weeks, especially when he was running the ball well.
This comes back to the thing I talked about last week in reference to the Giants defense. Right now -- whether it is on Kevin Gilbride, Manning or both -- the Giants are allowing defenses to dictate the style of play.
That needs to change.
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Yep, this is all true
Will they fix it in time?
It goes back to preseason
They were saying all training camp and preseason “we are going to throw the ball deep more often”.
Well they are and it has not worked the last two weeks for what ever reason – poor throw, lack of effort by WR or good play by the DB.
So I totally agree the offence is out of sync – it is giving away cheap downs and so we are not running the number of plays we want to establish a flow.
KG needs to decide on 5 staple running plays and 5 short passing plays that will work to generate a first down on 2nd and 7 and 3rd and 1 to 4 to keep drives moving.
The question is how much is a coaches pride hampering this. Will TC and KG say this is not working and revert to 2008 play calls or will vanity dictate they say we will keep doing this until it works even if it ruins the season.
Hopefully one hard look in the mirror will sort this out!
by G Fan in England on Oct 27, 2009 8:01 AM EDT reply actions
Coaches
If you read the Coughlin transcript, and some of KG’s comments last week, they are putting a lot of this on Eli and the receivers. They are being given more conservative calls — what you would are more traditional Giants plays. They are making site or route adjustments based on the defenses, and going for the home run. TC knows that is happening too often, and I’m sure it will be addressed.
by Ed Valentine on Oct 27, 2009 8:15 AM EDT up reply actions
Dictating to the defense
All the venom is aimed at KG for those deep balls, but it appears that it is Eli that is checking out of the play KG is calling and going for the deep ball. Well, it’s not working and it looked this week like the defense was almost baiting Eli & the receivers to change to a deep ball. Ed, you hit the nail on the head that it all goes back to dictating to the defense rather than the other way around.
On a positive note, this appears to be very fixable and something that is not inherently wrong with the roster. Eli & the receivers simply need to understand that there are times for the deep ball, but it has to be a lot less often (not 3 of 4 3rd & short situations!) and they have to get back to what they do best.
Nah
You asked the perfect question. It frames the debate really well, because we are not seeing the Giants play like the team we are used to seeing.
by Ed Valentine on Oct 27, 2009 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Route adjustments
Versus the D and like Potroast alluded to, Eli checking out?
It appears that these home run plays are Eli’s outlet checks?! I think KG has instilled this into the O when Eli believes the pressure is on. Some of these plays should’ve been made, but it’s very destructive in heavy doses. You moreless limit yourself with what you can do within the play book!
Have the Giants lost their identity?
Good question. If they have, perhaps a more fundamental one applies (which you already asked in another post): Are they not as good as we thought they were? If the tean has lost it identity (which it did in the last two games), it could be that the answer to the second question is yes.
It sure looks like other teams have figured out how to stop the run in the last two games.
That puts it all on Eli and the young receivers (and the coaches). I loved the idea of a long ball threat. As G says, it hasn’t worked.
My biggest concerns going into the draft were the OL and DBs. The Cornell rookie looks okay, thank God. The secondary is problematic.
I wasn’t worried about the receivers. Maybe I should have been.
It’s too soon to panic.
The Eagles game will provide a chance to regroup. If it doesn’t, it might still be too early. Let’s see how the team does when players we were counting heavily on return.
There’re plenty of things to worry about. For now, I’ll keep my fingers crossed and hope for the best.
George
How good this team really is is the other fundamental question. The rest of the season will tell us the answer. But, there are definitely things to be concerned about.
by Ed Valentine on Oct 27, 2009 8:45 AM EDT up reply actions
I still think
this is a great roster. They are just in a bit of a funk right now. All the things we’ve been talking about (this week and last) are fixable … (well, maybe not at safety. KP is not walking through that door). On D a lot of the problems should be fixed when the mash trio (Canty, Ross, & Boley) comes back at the bye.
As for the offense, the WRs are still learning. We have to remember that in the preseason we felt this team would take its lumps on offense early in the year because the WRs needed time to grow. Well, it appears that we are seeing that. They will hopefully continue to get better (especially Nicks, who has a nose for that end zone). And it also appears that Sheridan needed a little time to grow into his job as well.
Is this team the class of the NFL like we thought? No. Not right now anyway. Let’s give it some time though. There’s a long way to go. We have a talented team that is going through some growing pains.
Are they good?
Of course they’re good…on paper. The initial plan is good. The intial roster is good if healthy. There are a few things right on the cusp of happening and I don’t think any change in philosphy or identity is needed.
For one, the injuries are not minor. In fact having Boley and Canty and Kenny and, to a lesser degree, McKenzie in there the last 2 weeks would have been game-changing. That’s no escuse for all the poor execution but it’s a big deal. It’s a case where talent could have covered up some poor play by others.
For another, the defense did recover against Arizona but they fell one big play short of swinging that game in our favor. Something that would have swayed the turnover ratio our way.
Also, I don’t have a problem with Eli seeing 1 on 1 and going for it. His receivers have to win the battle. Yes he may have gone for it too many times but if your receivers win those battles, wouldn’t you go for it every time? If you say no, would having Plax in that one on one change your answer? It may be too early in the season to go for it all the time with young guys like Nicks (or is it Hicks?) and HAM, but depending on the down and distance and field position it’s to be considered.
And play calling. I don’t have a problem with the actual plays that were called, but the run/pass ratio was lopsided. And when we’re talking about NY Giants identity, it was lopsided the wrong way. Was it KG? Was it Manning’s audibles? Was it his obsession with a certain Nebraska town? OMAHA! Whatever the cause, getting away from a running game when it’s working is NOT Giants football.
Finally, mistakes. Turnovers, drops, penalties, losing a tossup, missing a block. Mistakes are the most glaring reason we lost this week. Any one of these “little” things breaking the other way could have led to a W. The other reasons are more long term, team philosophy issues. This one can be easily corrected and easily change the outcome of a game. I mean if Bradshaw doesn’t fumble, are we even talking about why we LOST? Or are would we be talking about how “Eli came through again in OT, oh and here’s some issues we can still improve on.”
We’re not getting blown out, but it’s almost more frustrating that we’re so close and SHOULD be winning if not for one or two things going the other way. And like Ed has said, they need to start DICTATING that those things go our way.
I think the WR's are OK
just very young a raw and Eli still does not trust them fully with all of the routes. I doubt Eli is as comfortable with Manningham or Nix to run a slant route or intermediate route on 3rd and 10 as he was with Plax and Toomer. Not to disparage the young guys because they have some skills the other guys don’t and might eventually be better but I’m really starting to believe this is one of the toughest positions in the league to fully develop a player at. Mike Garafalo made a point during training camp that is becoming a preminission, he said the Giants WR’s will drive you nuts this year with their inconsistancey, one week they’ll look great and the following week not so much, I think thats what were seeing with these guys right now especailly Manningham. Who knows maybe the Eagles Blitz all day with 8 in the Box and Manningham catches 8 balls for 150 and 3 TD’s . . . I could only hope so but I doubt it.
I think the WR's are ok too
But the more i think about it, (in a good way) it may be the problem?! Anyone that knows KG’s history as an OC, will know he’s always been a pass-friendly OC. Are these WR’s his kryptonite? He can’t resist the temptation to go for the home run ball when the situation presents itself?
By ignoring the running game more, the element of surprise via playaction diminishes more. Who would bite on something that hasn’t had the chance to be established yet?!
Let us compare
the 2007, 2008 and 2009 squads. In my view each unit was strongest as follows:
QB – the same
RB – 2008
WR – 2009 – just beats out 2007
OL – the same
DL – 2007 – Tuck as the rushing DT was the unknown star.
LB – 2007 – - Mitchell was the star – Boley maybe the next!
Secondary – 2009 if you include KP
So this team is better than 2008 but perhaps not as good as 2007!
The difference would therefore come down to playcalling and/or execution by the players.
We are taking more deep shots but I do not think Eli has the arm strength so the DB has a chance to close on the play so the offence needs reining in to mount ball control drives. So this falls on Eli for making the wrong adjustments etc and he needs to be told to not be greedy.
As for the defence it has been shown to have been too passive against the good teams and hopefully Sheridan will address that point starting with the Eagles.
Maybe the team feasted on the Bucc’s ,Chiefs and Raiders were outplayed by the very good Saints and they thought that things would revert to normal against the Cards.
All we can hope is that the Cards game was a wake up call to the team and the season starts now as the Eagles and Cowboys are closing in on us.
by G Fan in England on Oct 27, 2009 8:48 AM EDT reply actions
Great point about Mitchell
He was a nice playmaker that got a bit overshadowed that year. He could rush the QB and he scored two TD’s off of turnovers that year. He was the best playmaking LB we’ve had since Armstead. I think JR regretted letting him go a bit thats why he signed Boley to a 4 year deal this offseason instead of 1 year like with Mittchell.
I disagree a bit about the WR’s being better this year. Maybe were a little deeper and 2 years from now the starters might be better but I think a big part of the problem is they are very talented but not as reliable as veterns like PLax and Toomer and I think that takes time. I think KG and Eli are so excited to have such fast talented guys that they are starting to force things that are not there.
WR's
It was a tough call – Plax Toomer and Smith were a good trio in the 2007 playoffs, but I just feel the combination of Smith, Manningham, Nicks and Boss is a better unit even allowing for inexperience.
I agree on Eli trying to force big plays.
by G Fan in England on Oct 27, 2009 9:19 AM EDT up reply actions
Very good points..G Fan
Eli does have a great arm though..He needs to control it..His brother Peyton even said he has a better throwing arm..Eli just sails it too high..He needs to fix that..Peyton is deadly accurate..It sort of reminds me of how I threw a baseball…My Dad was drafted by the Yankees out of high school (he threw 9 no-hitters)..He decided given the money way back then was awful, to take a regular job..However, I always wanted to follow in his footsteps..The Problem?..I had a stronger arm, but you never knew where the ball was going..no accuracy..He told me I had an arm like a “rusty gate”..Even though I could throw 90 plus MPH at eighteen, I had no control, hence I wound up playing third base..It was funny because I could fire the ball to First base without any problem..Anyway, the point is that Eli needs to control that strong arm of his and he needs to figure out the winds at the Meadowlands…and I think his heel is still hurting more than what we are being told, because he has not looked like he can plant that foot and throw the past couple of weeks..He has gone from somewhat off target to way off target.
I agree with the lack identity..
They just are not playing Giants football..They should have known that Smith was going to be shadowed all night, but the other guys should beat single coverage. Eli is not only telegraphing his throws..He still has not mastered the winds at the Meadowlands…and not using Jacobs more was inexcusable..More swing passes to Jacobs (who found his hands and now can catch)..Would have quickly shut down that eight in the box that everyone is throwing at us.
If you saw the Eagles last night, our guys need to get ready for some seriously heavy blitzing…Eli has reverted back to that “Deer in the headlights” look.
You know what will make everyone happy?
You play to win the game!
by Simms-McConkey on Oct 27, 2009 8:53 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I saw Hootman's post and
and it got me thinking a lot about the O and how they have lost their identity. It seems they are hell bent on proving they could win by throwing deep balls with out Plaxico even if the passing game is not clicking. I know they have to take some shots when they are there and are facing a 8-9 man front but the Giants & Eli are at their best when the O is simple, run for a few yards and move the sticks on third and short whith intermediate passes. The run game will where the opponet down. In the 07 Playoff run it seemed to me that the Giants simplified the O from the regular season and it helped Eli make less mistakes. They did not try and air it out with Plax ,other than the GB game but even those throws were not bombs down the field mostly 10-20 yard passes to sustain drives,but instead they ran the ball for short yet steady gains got in 3rd and managable then completed short quick passes to possesion guys like Tommer and Smitty. I kow this was easier with Plax but it’s not like we were getting 6 to 8 yards a clip durring the playoffs that year either. Jacobs and Bradshaw would combine for about 120 each game. The Giants were in a lot of 3rd and 5’s and convereted a lot of them. If the Miami Dolphins with no QB and no great WR’s can run the ball effectivley and control the the clock then so should the NY GIANTS. With the D not being what it was I think ball control and field position should be the key not the run n shoot. I do think the learning curve for WR’s in the NFL is a lot longer than most of us think so I think the coaches are just letting Mario & Nicks do what they do best which is go deep and try and make big plays and not using them on the more conventinal routes until Eli trusts them more. I say use Boss and Smitty to move the sticks, they run the best routs, have the best hands, and Eli trusts them the most. And when they see something open use one of the young guys to make a play, don’t force plays to them it never worked with Plax and Shockey why would it work with Manningham and Hixon.
The clock
Ball control is ball control, even if we score a TD on the long ball, we wouldn’t have use up much time. An explosive offensive opponent would come right out and score a TD. The Giants are not a explosive offensive team, we don’t have the personnel to out gun good offensive teams. We depend on the defense to win games for us.
The offense should help the defense with ball control. This has been the winning formula for the Giants for many years.
Also with Ball control
I think you take explosive offenses out of rythm by making them sit on the bench for a long period of time. Giants did it to the Bills in the SB as did the Pats to the Rams in the SB. Thats also how the Pats beat the Colts in those playoff games. Hell Miami won a divsion last year with that philosophy, it’s not a bad one just not a fun one.
problems?
yeah, sure. Not playing to their strengths, etc… but objectively, these guys are among the top 1% in the world at figuring things out and they’re spending 70-80 hours a week doing just that. Easy for me to say, "Get Smith more involved, yaknow?
I think we’re overreacting. Are the Giants good? Come on now. Of course they are. We’re sounding like Eli’s face looks after an interception. The NFC-East leading Giants are 5-2 and have only lost to the defending NFC champions and the probable 2009 NFC No. 1 seed (at this point.) Beat the Eagles and the only possible grade for the Giants season thus far (6-2, div. lead, 3-0 in the div.) is an A.
You play to win the game!
Mario Manningham
Mario Manningham tries too hard, he have to learn to catch the
Ball first then run, not thinking of run before catching the ball.
The difference between Eli and Peyton..
They both are animated QBs, pointing..barking orders at the line of scrimmage, etc..but where Eli is actually attempting to adjust the play, Peyton’s is basically a bunch of bullshit..He is a master of faking adjustments and sticking ultimately with the play that was called…The shifts by their backs and recievers I believe are mostly pre-defined to get them lined up purposely to execute the original play that was called 9 out of 10 times..Eli on the other hand tries to check-off too much…Peyton is a poker player…Eli is still sitting at the slot machines.
huh?
Peyton’s is basically a bunch of bullshit?
what league MVP have you been watching? and how do you know what he is doing?
and I really dont understand your comparison to poker and slot machines. its like saying peyton is like a plumber and eli is like a fluffer for a porno film.
makes no sense
oops I crapped my pants!
the suggestion
is that Peyton sometimes uses fake adjustments to get the D OUT of the right alignment trying to match his phony change.
You play to win the game!
by Simms-McConkey on Oct 27, 2009 9:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Wenz..What I meant was..
Peyton’s antics for the most part are bluffs to throw the defense off into thinking he is changing a play when he really isn’t..He is the premier QB in the league..He plays poker with the defense, and usually wins out…and takes the pot..Eli tries the same approach at the slot machine and gets three lemons and a few quarters.
I'm actually amazed that
you know how often Eli is changing the play and is bluffing, and how often Peyton is changing the play and bluffing. Nine out of ten times? Upon what inside information are you basing this fact you’ve quoted? How often is Eli changing it then?
The player and Coaching analysts on the NFL channel..
Plus Jimmy Johnson, Bill Cowher, Phil Simms, Troy Aikman, John Madden comments..and there are plenty more that have pointed that out…I have no “inside” information..but listening to them and watching him play the game, which I have been for 47 years you can see it…Tarkington was the master of the scramble, Peyton Manning is the master of the bluff..and Eli is obviously checking off more than his brother does if you watch the game you can tell…especially over the last two games.
If i recall
Peyton calls alot of his own plays too. Then when he see’s what the D has to offer, he’ll go through his BS’ing theatrics. lol But really, anyone can see that Eli is literally checking off into something different.
What I recall hearing was
Peyton Manning breaks the huddle with three plays. Typically it’s one run and two pass plays. He scans the defense and selects with of these plays will be more effective. I believe Eli is given one play to break huddle with, but that week’s gameplan includes some audibles to check into if the defense aligns in certain ways.
That could very well be the difference..
I know Peyton has a longer leash than Eli, but if Peyton is breaking a huddle with three options along with his free reign..than we need to get their coordinater..maybe trade Moss and KG for him..I still think he is the best bluffer in the league. He drives defenses nuts.
Not really a coach's article
but this article sorta touches on what Peyton is up to:
Essentially, we’re both right. Peyton communicates at the LOS what the play is gonna be, then he may or may not audible some pieces of that play, or he just bluffs to make the defense think he’s changing something to react to the safety inching closer to the LOS. Nine out of ten might be a bit high, but he’s certainly looking to manipulate the defense before the snap.
I actually don’t blame Eli for audibles into a long pass against a stacked defense, but I wouldn’t be surprised if KG and TC asks him to trust the original call more often, and be more mindful of the situation (such as down and distance, score, field position, etc).
Agree rzor..
The difference is that Peyton has the unique ability to move the defense out of their schemes..and then burns them up…and don’t think for a second that him, Eli and Archie don’t talk about it..Eli is just emerging as a great QB..and I’ll bet my kids that they all talk about it..when they have a chance to be together.
Good stuff, Bobbi
You don’t hear about Peyton’s poker playing much, but it’s a fact.
the giants need a bye week
Eli has at least one of these games every year. The Giants do need to win one of the next two but it is still kinda early. They will get their game together lets just get everybody healthy for the second half.
oops I crapped my pants!
No road is without bumps…even newly paved smooth roadways start a lil ruff..with that said..I’m not worried,actually I’m feeling pretty good that all these bumps are being noticed NOW instead of later(playoffs)…
as everyone has mentioned WE are letting teams dictate to US…that is not GIANTS football..I can only go back as far as Coach Perkins so maybe I missing something..but as far as I can remember we have been a Running TEAM,with Superb Defense…lackluster Special Teams play and a grind it out mentality..We need to get back to that..
Having more talent does not make you a better Team…in a way its both a gift and curse…See Eli forcing deep balls as an example…I also think our Coaches are a bit arrogant and stubborn ,it seems that once they have their minds sets that’s it ..FINAL
I see maybe 2 more losses which is not a bad thing so long as they come early…by the time we are firing on all cylinders as perhaps the #2 or 3 seed watch out…
i dunno maybe I just like the colors
Are they a power running team? A passing team? A team led by a blitzing defense? What’s their true identity? And why does it seem to change week to week?
This is the same question they were asking at Ohio State on game day a few weeks ago. Like us, they have always been a running team setting up play action, but now want to put more of the game on the QBs shoulders.
Each team needs a go to play. Something they are confident that they can beat any defense with because they can run it better than the other guy can stop it. For us that has been the power run with Jacobs. That sets up play action and Ward, now Bradshaw runs. Mix in some screen passes once the D starts cheating to keep the LBs honest (which we didnt really do)
Now it seem that with Eli’s big contract, we want him to be peyton. Perhaps we’re trying to break in these new WRs, but Id say they have had enough. A team needs to know what the bread and butter play is. The power run, short west coast passes, the deep ball, outside run, screens… and the rest of the offense should be to take advantage of what that sets up.
The Giants’ run/pass ratio is almost exactly what it was last year at this time. Through seven games in 2008, the Giants had 216 rushing attempts and 230 pass plays (throws and sacks). This season, those numbers are 225 runs and 235 passes.taken from giants gab
it just doesn’t seem that way now because the kind of passes have changed..I have seen more WR screens on a weekly basis than I have in all the years I’ve been a Giants Fan..the rb screens needs to become a major option as well as the RB dump offs..hell BJ has shown to be reliable catching the ball..Tiki he is NOT but who is ?? Hedge well ummm he is NOT Jim Finn stop throwing his way..there is a reason he’s open duh…
i dunno maybe I just like the colors
part of that equality
comes from the fact that in the KC, Oakland, and TB games, the Giants had such a blowout going that they ran instead of passing maybe at least a 3-1 ratio in the 4th quarters. From watching the games, there seems to be more emphasis on the pass this year. As mentioned, that may be reacting to the stuffed-box defenses.
You play to win the game!
by Simms-McConkey on Oct 27, 2009 9:44 AM EDT up reply actions
We need Boley back.
That’s first of all. Is he the savior? I don’t know, but he can’t hurt cuz Chase Blackburn is not a starter. Sintim? I dunno…like Ed said he’s probably fine but there’s something there that he’s not starting or playing at all.
….I’ll say this until he’s back of course. Its cuz Boley is a difference maker. A LB with speed we haven’t seen since young Jesse Armstead at OLB. Get on the damn field Boley…and frickin stay there too!
Have they lost their identitiy? Well its still there, as in Brandon Jacobs. The defense looked better. I like the blitz, I also thought they had nice pressure too. We’re gonna have to face the facts. Is this line as good as 2007? Well, no. Not for talent or anyone’s lost a step. But Tuck’s hurt, Osi’s still recovering too. Cofield and Robbins are the same…they might be the best 2 along with Kiwi. Canty may help too….like Sintim…I think.
I think the line can be as good, maybe better. Maybe this bye week, everyone gets healthy? Hey, in 2007 we weren’t all that good around now…I also think this is a better all around team.
ITs the offense. Where’s the 7 minute marches down the field? Why are we throwing deep bombs? I know the single coverage may be there…but don’t they realize they’re the Giants? Those plays never work, Plaxico, Toomer, Steve Smith, Tyree, Tim Carter…whoever the hell you want to name, that WR just made 1 or 2 out of every 15 deep balls.
March down the field, 7-8 minute, 11 or 13 play drives…where did they go? they would have helped against the Saints (tho it still would have been a loss….probably), and if they did it against the Cards, the defense wouldn’t have to be on teh field so much cuz of all the 3 and outs.
I like the WR screens. I don’t like the pitch plays. I like passing the ball…I hate deep balls on 3rd and short.
I said it during the game, run Jacobs on 3rd and short. They stop it…they stop it. Maybe…GASP!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Run a play action and a short safe route to Boss? OH MY FKING GOD!!!! The audacity of such an idea….
But the bottom line is….win against the Eagles and the Chargers…all this fretting is for naught. Split…we’re OK. Lose the next 2? Well…we may be in trouble, but the week after the by would be a good time to get it right. 5-4 is not the end of the world either, and that’s the worst case scenario. Just throwing it out there…I don’t think its gonna happen either.
..."I predict...the Giants are #1"...
...."That's not a prediction meatman, that's a FACT OF LIFE"!.
---Carl
Agreed on Boley
I think in this defense he definitely is a difference maker. It appeared that way early in the season anyway.
You're right about deep balls.
The Giants haven’t been good at it for a long time. Homer Jones was the last dependable long ball guy. It’s a nice weapon to have. You’d think at least one of the current WRs would be good at it, but so far that hasn’t been the case.
I really
….REALLY REALLY
think they have 2 very good ones, potentially, in Nicks and HAM. Steve Smith knows how to get open, but like his former partner in crime, Dominik Hixon…they just seem incapable of completing the entire play.
I think the deep balls need to be thrown in the direction of Nicks primarily, maybe some to HAM (the last few by Eli were off target…also HAM has ham hands lately too….), maybe to Smith.
But Hixon needs to be relegated to intermediate and slant rounts primarily (well…every damn WR needs to be put on slant duty, WHERE THE HELL ARE THEY?)
..."I predict...the Giants are #1"...
...."That's not a prediction meatman, that's a FACT OF LIFE"!.
---Carl
by FreeBradshaw on Oct 27, 2009 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Regardless
of what identity the team wants to come up with, the REAL identity NEEDS to be a power running team with a strong defense. Anything else is a recipe for failure against good teams. We can be a passing team against the likes of the Raiders, Tampa Bay, and Kansas City, but against good defenses, we will struggle. Balance is the key
The Giants Identity Problem
Yes, wouldn’t it be great to see the OL get off as one at the snap and move the 7-8 men in the box and we average close to 5 a carry and keep the ball for 7-8 minutes at a time. But it’s not happening. Wouldn’t it be great if we used play action more to freeze LBers and safeties for a second and complete more passes for more and bigger gains? Not happening. Read a great post at UltimateNYG that says we only use play action 10% of the time (9 out of 10 times Eli goes to make the exchange with a RB he is in fact making the exchange. Only 1 out of 10 is play action. Why would any defense buy our play action at that low rate?) And now the folks at BBV have decided that the problem is Eli checking off and throwing far too many deep balls at 3rd and short. The 60s Packers did this to perfection many many times – 3rd and short, long ball, usually a deep post to Dowler or Dale. As with any play or plays, when it works it is great and when it doesn’t… I’ll say it till I’m Blue in the face (which is am already as a Giants fan) – with this coaching staff and it’s seeming inability to change, to adapt, to plan ahead, we are a team of Creationists in a league filled with Evolutionists. That to me is the Giants, thanks to the intransigence of Coughlin, Gilbride and Sheridan. Adapt or die, baby.
by nybaseballgiants on Oct 27, 2009 10:13 AM EDT reply actions
the 60's packers
Didn’t have to worry about zone blitzes, CB who ran 4.3 40’s, or have the option of giving the ball to a tank on 3rd and short.
by wilddre22 on Oct 27, 2009 11:41 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Play Action
The fact that we ACTUALLY hand off 9 out of 10 times it looks like we are handing off should make it more believable that we are and therefore it should be more effective. I think you might be thinking backwards on that one.
Major Trouble
We are in major trouble and it needs to be corrected fast!!! ELi,s throwing off his back foot again. The offensive line can’t move anyone. And the defensive coordinator has a Ray Handley look about him. Coughlin needs to cut the ties quickly with Sheridan or our season goes down the tubes.I knew we were in trouble the minute I heard he wants to be up in the booth instead of on the sidelines.He’s horrible,we should have let Spags take him to St. Lou.
uh....
no.
Its not Sheridan’s fault CC Brown is in position and can’t cover. Its also not Sheridan’s fault the offense can’t get a sustained drive going and keep the D off the field. Its also not Sheridan’s fault the defense is banged up, mainly our 2 All-Pro caliber DE’s, our difference maker at LB, our starting potential pro-bowl S is out for the year…also our big money DT that was supposed to rush the passer better than FredRobb hasn’t played…our 2nd round supposed opening day starter at OLB Clint Sintim hasn’t played.
….no, Sheridan did fine against the Cards. He was outmatched against the Saints…but so would have Spags.
..."I predict...the Giants are #1"...
...."That's not a prediction meatman, that's a FACT OF LIFE"!.
---Carl
by FreeBradshaw on Oct 27, 2009 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions
"He was outmatched against the Saints..."
“But so would have Spags.” And you know this how? And people agree with you?
by nybaseballgiants on Oct 27, 2009 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions
what would Spags do?
Rely on the front 4…blitz a few times?
John Fox…maybe even Belicheck in his time with the Giants …the Saints were that good that no one would have stopped them.
Agree. Disagree..do whatever you want. Spags was good, he’s my boy right up there with Fox and Belicheck as all time great Giants coordinators…..but I highly doubt he’d get much more in that game.
Maybe its not a blowout…but the Saints were clicking on 100% of their plays.
..."I predict...the Giants are #1"...
...."That's not a prediction meatman, that's a FACT OF LIFE"!.
---Carl
by FreeBradshaw on Oct 27, 2009 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Yea i gotta agree with FB
I mean I am not really sure we can run the schemes on D as effectively without our 1st Team players in. A playmaking LB is a HUGE ASSET. When you have a LB making plays all over the field like Boley can you can neutralize short passing plays and the run.
+1
It’s too soon to start hammering Sheridan. Let’s see how he does with more weapons. As long as CC is on the field, we’ll be vulnerable to the passing game.
I actually thought CC played pretty well.
night and day from the Saints game.
I think that game was as bad as its gonna get (cuz…well it couldn’t get much worse).
..."I predict...the Giants are #1"...
...."That's not a prediction meatman, that's a FACT OF LIFE"!.
---Carl
by FreeBradshaw on Oct 27, 2009 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm not worried
Unless we lose to the Eagles
Than we’re going to need to do some serious revamping
Also, we should beat San Diego because they lost their Run stopping DT, so we should be able to run right through them (barring they’ve made some changes in the past 2 weeks)
hopefully weve seen the last of
The one back in one back out per series rotation. Or at least we may get a curb on it.
I noticed right away that bradshaw wasn’t getting as much push as Jacobs. Our OC should have too.
Why didn’t they go into the locker room, and say, ok bradshaw doesn’t have it this game, instead of rotating him and big boy every other down, well switch to Jacobs in for 2 series, then out for ahmad.
Instead they stuck with it, and Jacobs powered his way to close to 6 yards per, in only 13 carries, and ahmad didn’t even crack 3 per, with one less carry.
At some point that has to be caught by KG, or tom himself. Someone needs to have a lightbulb go off over there head. On top of all of that, it will give your franchise back some confidence if he’s in down the stretch, getting crunchtime touches, and not riding the pine.
Can we stop saying our run was shut down the last 2 games? Its absolutely not true. Ahmad was shut down this game, but big boy was unstoppable, and shouldve been in there more. And we were so far out of it in the saints debacle, there was no opportunity to run. When we did we were mighty effective.
by wilddre22 on Oct 27, 2009 10:53 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Flying to the ball
I sense that the Giant’s coaching philosophy on defense is more about not making mistakes than it is “flying to the ball”. Why else would we be playing Clark so much …and Chase too. They are both solid but neither is a playmaker.
I, for one, would like to see Sintim and Kehl play more – at least until Boley is back. AP is not athletic but they need his smarts. That means the guys flanking him need to be more atletic than he is. Blackburn and Clark are.. but just barely.
There is too much pressure on the DL. The LBs and the DBs are not doing it.
5-2 = doomsday?
the Giants were 4-0 and the solution was firing the placekicker. Now they’re 5-2, tied for the 5th-best record in the NFL, and the solution is a dramatic overhaul and firing of the coaching staff.
If they go to 5-4, we’re just going to have to raze New York in its entirety…
You play to win the game!
by Simms-McConkey on Oct 27, 2009 11:04 AM EDT reply actions
I don't know if I agree with the whole identity thing
The Patriots and now the Broncos don’t necessarily have a specific identity like “running team”, “passing team”, etc. They play the way you don’t want them to. They take away your best ability on offense and defense, and they attack the weaknesses. If you want to take away their passing game, they’ll run it all over you. If you want to take away their running game, they’ll throw it around. If you want to play a tight defensive run-heavy game, they’ll beat you at that. And if you want to try to outscore them, they’ll stop you. Most of all, they come into the game with a plan, and based on how the game goes, they make adjustments and take advantage of your scheme.
I just don’t see that with the Giants. They’re well-coached in all areas, they seem well-prepared most of the they’ve got more talent and depth than maybe any team in the NFL. Why can’t they make better in-game adjustments?
To me it seems like they come into the game with a game plan, and they expect to out-execute the opponent. If the opponent’s plan is better and/or the Giants don’t out-execute, the Giants lose.
Rodgers-Cromartie went down with an injury, and I think we ran the ball on first and second down the next series. Then when we did throw, we threw to McFadden, the other starting CB. Shouldn’t the Giants expose their weakness instead of playing into their gameplan? If receivers can’t get open, why don’t we send some of those guys in motion or on short crossing patterns. I’m pretty sure Manningham can get open on anyone running those kinds of routes.
The Broncos have taken in-game adjustments to the next level this season. In the second half of games, their defense has not allowed a third down conversion in FOUR WEEKS. That’s against Romo, Brady, and Rivers.
The Giants have the talent and coaching staff to be able to figure out ways to dominate opponents on the fly. I think they need to figure out how to do it and then be willing to do it instead of sticking with their “identity”.
What is really important
Is to be firing on all cylinders at the end of the season. Get to the playoffs then we have 0 wins and need 3 or 4 depending on the seed. We haven’t played up to expectations the last few weeks. This happens it is the NFL. The Raiders did just beat the Eagles. We are to the halfway point after this game. A win would be tremendous for the division outlook, however all is not lost with a loss. Last time I checked a team with only 3 losses has never missed the playoffs. Our team will be looking alot different after the buy. We will have play makers in the linebacking group. Boley was everywhere when he was in. Canty should help neutralize the run and bring more Sacks for Osi Tuck and Kiwi. Ross should be able to help our secondary and make us better against the pass, maybe a little bit less CC Brown out there on passing downs. Believe me these last 2 weeks have really sucked for all of us, but we are still in 1st place in the division.
The Giants need a short distance Roving Receiver.
It seemed to me that the Giants (Eli and the Offensive Coordinator) do not have an adequate set of passing plays specifically set up to take advantage of a defense that is playing pass while threatening or carrying out blitzes that will fill up a running lane. I was always taught in basketball that you need to take advantage of what the defense gives you, and that is, “Go to the hole” and that is where the ball will be coming to. Can’t an offensive play book have a “roving” receiver who’s sole purpose is to go to the hole the defense is creating in the middle when they run a particular play? If I have one receiver dedicated to going to the hole, I would not give a second thought to the blitz that I see developing, because I know my receiver will be right in the passing lane made available by the blitzing defense. A few of these passes will result in opening up more running lanes and at the very least, the receiver becomes a downfield blocker. Maybe putting 2 tightends wide and putting them both in motion with one to act as the rover and the other a blocker or pass protector depending on what the final play is at snap. Teach the Rover to read the blitz and go to the hole created…If no blitz occurs then the running back becomes the pass target on the side of the threatening blitzer is on. The Giants Offense need to get more creative, because everyone else knows whats coming. It only takes 2 players to blow open a game. The QB and the Rover.
Eagles
The upcoming game against the eagles is a must-win. I watched their game against the Redskins last night and it gave me flashbacks of Sundays loss. The Eagles blitzed on almost every down just as the Cards did Sunday. Eli lost the chess game with the defense Sunday. He checked into bad plays and was too focused on the Blitz. If he has the same problems this Sunday…It’ll be a long day.
Westbrook will probably be out with the neck injury he suffered last night. But we still can’t afford to have AP matched up w/L.McCoy on man coverage situations.
Feagles…I’d hate to be him on Sunday. If they thought Steve Breaston was a problem, DeSean Jackson will be a nightmare if they have him returning balls.
We can’t afford to leave Jacobs on the sidelines after he gets rolling. Jacobs looked great in the first quarter of the Cards game but they opted for Bradshaw several times w/plays that went nowhere. Hopefully we will see some well executed Power-O run plays.
Gilbride…you have 2 guys who can make plays for you, last names start with a B.
Boss and Beckum need to be established in the passing game wayyyyyy more especially on playaction and 3rd down.
LET'S GO G-MEN
Excellent points..
Yes this is a must win game against the Eagles..We are now suddenly 1/2 game on top of our division..We lose this one we’re back to square one after an opportunity to be way out in front..The Eagles are going to put serious blitzes on us..As far as Feagles goes they need to just let him be himself instead of ordering him into schemes. He knows what he needs to do.
FORGET ALL THIS CRYSTAL BALL BALONEY!!! JUST GET BACK TO FUNDAMENTAL BASICS…UNDER GIANT TERMS… RUN THE BALL RUN RUN…TIRE THE OPPOSING “D” LINE, THROW WHEN NECESSARY…NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND!!!!!
I believe that is exactly the point here ...Play Giants football..
No need for a crystal ball..stop us if you can kind of football..
We have the players..
at least we are about 90% there, but we don’t have the system. There are few players who I would replace at this time. CC would have to go, probably a nice guy, but a liability. I really don’t like Moss taking a roster spot because he is never (IMO) going to get any playing time. However, I don’t really think it is able the playing personnel, but the system they are being asked to play in. Against the Saints and Cards there was only one team on the field. One team bringing pressure, one team expressing themselves .. and it wasn’t the team from NY. I don’t mind giving up penalties because of jumping offside in our enthusiasm to stick it to the opposition or get into their heads, I hate giving them up for tentative delays of play. It’s about ‘presence’, about dominating physically and psychologically. Do we have players that can do that? BJ could in 2007 and 2008, I’m not sure he is doing it this year .. so far. Tuck, Osi and Kiwi can, but are not quite there yet. I want the defense to hit people hard and throw them to the ground. On the offense, I would rather throw and catch 10 5yd screens/slants than one 50yd reception because it will demonstrate relentless effort and pressure rather than a single flash of brilliance (which we also need) because the latter is less predictable. Let’s fire up the Giant steamroller against the Eagles
Looks as though Ed deleted a couple of comments I made....
But to be honest I don’t need somebody who probably wasn’t even born yet, to insult me. I respectfully take all comments and opinions and often..they give me food for thought. I do not disrespect anyone out here…I have rooted for our guys for more than 47 years..Six of the years were on my Fathers lap, hence the 47 years where I started to learn what I was watching. We don’t need to have folks out here on this site being blatantly disrespectful..Especially our fans…If someone wants to come in here and try to give us smack, then we politely throw them out. When you think about it we ARE part of our team..and ‘infighting’ amoungst ourselves is not any help..I’m sure our guys are doing the same darn thing behind closed doors. There is nobody out here that is going to impact the plans they come up with this week..We’ll just sit down with a cold beer and some hot wings and watch what happens…I signed up on this site about a year ago and it has been fun making comments about our team good or bad..but I’ll tell you I have been a diehard Giants fan before the internet was invented and quite frankly, I don’t need it..So, that next infighting, insulting exchange that happens you can kiss bobbieblue goodbye.
Hey there Bobbiblue ...
just checked back over the postings here and I must be missing something ‘cos I don’t see what your concern is. Maybe I am just not reading carefully enough. For one I enjoy your postings and find them very informative and often thought provoking. The board would be poorer if you bailed out. Maybe we are all a little frustrated, and you are correct in saying that all we can do is sound off because it probably makes no difference to what is going to happen on the field. If I had anything to do with the Giants organisation I would go nowhere near any bulletin boards! I have to smile when I see people posting “stay classy” ’cos all I can think of is Ron Burgundy say “Stay classy San Diego” on Anchorman … but, stay classy!
Thanks Johannus
I appreciate your kind words..Ed removed the exchange that got me upset..that is why you don’t see them..I enjoy reading all of yours and everyone’s commentary. We are Giants fans and yes a little frustrated right now, but we need to stay together and not jump on each other over the frustration..and yes I too find the majority of comments made here to be thought provoking. Ed sent me an e-mail and I am satisfied with how he handled it. He doesn’t, nor should he, tolerate that kind of stuff on this site. His note convinced me to stick around. I live in South Florida now, and this forum gives me a chance to talk to my fellow fans, since I can’t be at the stadium anymore..and I’ll tell you this..If any of the ‘classy’ guys are down this way, Port St. Lucie, they will always be welcome in my home to eat, drink a few cold ones and watch a game…The beaches are 15 minutes from here also..so if your ever vacationing down this way just let me know…and I loved the Ron Burgundy comment! lol…Thanks again Johannus!…Bob
Should the coordinator be introduced to the tight end?
I’ll admit to be old and cranky, but there was a time when Giants football also meant that a good portion of the air attack was directed to the tight end. For whatever reason, recent vintage has pretty much made that position an afterthought, with few passes thrown that way. However, there doesn’t appear to be a lack of ability there, just a lack of opportunity, and I think utilizing the position a bit more might cure some of the problems with moving the chains and in the Red/Green Zone.
I agree Cranky..
I think the problem is that teams have our number right now and are loading up the box..We need to find a way to solve that and loosen them up..I think they are forced to keep Boss in to block..We all know he is one heck of an athlete..I’ll never forget that catch in the SB where he literally hurdled over the defender..Until our guys figure out how to neutralize that loaded box scheme everyone is using against us, we are going to struggle.
they need
to start running the ball. i know eli is completing a high percentage of his passes, but they usually start the game out with 3 straight throws. and then they have 2nd and 2 and throw the ball 2 straight times and have to punt. all they needed were like 15 more yards and they could have kicked a field goal. get back to the run game!
The problem with the "identity" concept ...
is that in today’s NFL you just can’t impose your will like the ’60s Packers. If the opposing D stacks the line of scrimmage, you have to pass. You also have to get open and catch the ball.
Issues the Giants are dealing with:
On Offense – if the D stacks the box and blitzes a lot, the best counter are the WR route adjustments that require chemistry between the QB an WR’s (did see one beautiful back shoulder throw vs. Cards). Our young WR corp are talented, but they are still getting on that same mental page with Eli, and this takes time. Other teams know this, and feel it’s a good gamble to bring a lot of pressure.
On Defense – injuries have undermined our plans for the 7-man DL rotation that should be able to have fresh legs beating their men 1-on-1 a lot, and bringing extra bodies for a few jail breaks. I still think we should be able to be a much more dominant D than we have shown in any game this year, but the scheme needs to be more aggressive to do it.
Bottom line – aggression wins in the NFL (on both sides of the ball). This ain’t tennis, and there is no stat for “unforced errors”.
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