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Ben vs. Eli - The Case For Ben While Acknowledging Both Guys Are In the Right Place

[EDITOR'S NOTE: 'Blitzburgh' and I are debating Eli Manning vs. Ben Roethlisberger today. My piece on Eli can be found over at Behind the Steel Curtain. Feel free to head over there and join the debate, As I always ask, just keep it friendly.]

What's going on New York Giants fans! How's it feel to have avoided the Super Bowl hangover that debilitated both my beloved Steelers in 2006 and many others over the years?

While in college, my parents worked and lived in Manhattan for one year. I'd take the train up from Philly to go hear a native Brooklyn DJ named Danny Tenaglia at his long running weekly residency at Arc down near the financial district. I have fond memories of those nights (the parts I can remember) and of the underappreciated beauty of the city more generally, but one thing is undeniable - y'all are some crazy folks. Work hard, play hard. When I'd call it a night at like 4 or 5 am and see people just then arriving, I was..well who cares, but the point is, your New York Giants somehow avoided all the distractions that accompany being SB Champs in a jungle like New York.

That's impressive.

And part of that comes from the maturity and leadership strides that Eli Manning has clearly made. The improved accuracy and decision making don't hurt either. No longer do I see Eli attempt the impossible from his back foot facing pressure on 3rd down during key moments in a game. Instead, I see a QB who quickly goes through his progressions, understands he has a competent safety valve in Derek Ward, and is content throwing it away and waiting for the next opportunity to make something happen.

Can the Giants continue to avoid any sort of prolonged period of poor play? I hope that question even comes into play starting Sunday night when these two well-rounded teams clash in what I sense is an extremely anticipated matchup amongst our respective fan bases. Can't wait. On to the subject at hand: Who would I take - Ben Roethlisberger or Eli Manning?

Well, let me first say that I'm going to forego rattling off all the stats that point in Roethlisberger's favor. If you're curious about the statistical comparison between the two SB winning QBs, you can read your maestro Ed's case for Eli, which includes many of the pertinent stats - all of which favor Ben. Anyway, as intelligent football fans know - which I know you Giants fans are - statistics don't always tell the full story. Often times, they don't even come close to telling the whole story. So I won't be that guy who just keeps pointing to the numbers and dismiss other considerations.

Why? Well for one, that'd be too easy and shallow. But also, the numbers would be a disservice to Big Ben, because even though he had a monster year statistically in 2007 which he may never match again (at least in terms of TDs - 32), his numbers rarely tell the entire tale of what he brings to each game, and they certainly don't indicate that he's at least a top 3-5 QB in this league, and the type of player that comes around only every 20-25 years or so for a franchise.

Did you know his 23 wins when either trailing or tied in the 4th quarter are the most in the league since 2004? Yup, Big Ben's got a little bit of John Elway in him. Probably will never have the same intelligence as Elway had, but in terms of his big-moment greatness, as well as his ability to dismiss 280 pound linemen as they try to sack him and then make something happen outside the pocket, Roethlisberger's quite similar to the Hall of Famer.

One last thing about Ben that's relevant to the game Sunday. He's light years ahead of where he was two years ago, and even three years ago in 2005 when he was the youngest ever starting QB to win a Super Bowl. To try to argue that Roethlisberger has somehow maxed out at age 25 (which Ed did while merely trying to show love for Eli) is just  _________ (fill in whatever synonym you want for untrue).

What makes Ben so much better now compared to a few years ago is that he's SO much smarter with the football than he was then. Kinda like Eli. He has a huge arm and like all great athletes, he's cocky and his own biggest believer, so during his first several years in the league, there was NO window too small for him to force a ball into. He could do it all and he wanted to prove it. Well, that's partly why Bill Cowher only let him throw it about 22 times a game in '04 and '05, and why in 2006 he led the league in INTs (26) when then OC Ken Whisenhunt opted to let him throw the ball 31 times per game. Actually his motorcycle crash, appendectomy and concussion all had an effect, but it definitely didn't help that he suddenly was asked to to be Superman out there.

Starting last year though, Ben made a commitment to protecting the football. He only threw 11 picks last year and has only thrown 3 this year, two of which were not an indictment of his decision making (one slipped out of his hand and one was a late half or late game situation heave). Ben's always been accurate and will continue to be for the remainder of his career. Now that he has a legit pass catching RB to check down to, you can expect that completion % to go up even higher, while the sack numbers decline and the INTs stay at an acceptably low level. Ben's found a formula that works I believe and we're going to see him win lots of playoff games in the future if the front office can get some offensive linemen to help protect him just a bit better.

Let me say this though to close: both teams have the right guy for their respective teams/markets. I'm not sure Big Ben was mature enough at 21-22 years old to handle New York like Eli has, and while I'm not sure that Ben would have struggled quite as much as Manning had he been in the exact same scenario, I am sure that he wouldn't have taken it all in stride quite like Eli has. Ben's a great teammate and the first to fess up when he makes a mistake. In fact, we often joke about him praising his offensive line after a 6 sack game.  But he was like many kids his age, quite impetuous and bold both on the field and with his off the field actions, at least so say sources closer to the team than me. But you could just tell by listening to him - you LOVED his competitive drive but just kinda knew that he rubbed some people the wrong way, perhaps even in his own locker room. Who knows how he would have responded to failure in NYC, assuming he would have had at least somewhat similar struggles back in '04-'06 when the Giants were still struggling to play consistent football. 

And by the same token, I'm not sure a fanbase like the Steelers would have been pleased with Manning had he gone through the same turnover and decision making problem early in his career. Remember, Ben was asked to merely 'manage the game' (hate that term, btw) as a rookie and 2nd year QB. The team was stacked, particularly in '04, and Ben would have been villainized had he blown it for the franchise with inopportunistic INTs, which often plagued Manning in crucial moments.

And let's face it. Steelers fans are quite simply the most famous in the NFL for their unrivalred ubiquity and sense of pride in their organization's family-run stability. Injecting football royalty like a Manning takes attention away from the collective sense of ownership, congeniality, and pride that permeates our team and our fanbases' identity and diverts it to one particular individual. And while I will say that Eli is not a me-first guy in any sense of the word, having a player who is in a way, bigger than the team, at least in the eye of the fans and the media-  as both Eli and Peyton are through no fault of their own - is simply not something that would go over very well in Pittsburgh.

For those reasons, I think both players are in the right place. I think Ben's a better QB, and his numbers and more diverse physical talents support that, but I think both fanbases can rest their heads at night knowing they both got the right guy for the job. At least now. Hate to finish what a low-blow, but don't forget, New Yorkers had all but given up on Eli and were wishing they had drafted Ben -just- as the team was about to embark on its improbable and historic SB march. Steelers fans knew from Day 1 we had something special. Just sayin'.

Be well New York! Check ya Sunday.

FanPosts are written by community members. This is simply a way for community members to express opinions too long to be contained in a comment.

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Nice, Blitz

Throwing my own words back in my face. LOL! Eli certainly has changed a lot of opinions since the time I wrote that — including mine, obviously. Fact is, both guys are great QBs.

by Ed Valentine on Oct 23, 2008 6:27 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

hjehe

Yea i didnt include that to be mean. It was a reasonable assesment then – but you just never know when things might click for athletes. Mannings seems to me to be a complex individual, perhaps more so than his brother whos just WIN WIN WIN, BEST BEST BEST..and everyone cna see that. I think theres the same level of competitiveness in Eli, it was just harder for him to let it hang loose because of 1) how hard the NFL is and 2) how easy it is to make mistakes when you press as a young QB.

He got hot at the right time and now all of a sudden his heads totally different. Psycholigys huge at this level. I love it. Goat to hero. And Manning’s not the only example by any means of just all of a sudden getting it and never looking back. I like him more than Peyton – hate Peyton. BIGTIME.

by Blitzburgh on Oct 23, 2008 7:08 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I know you didn't

You never know when your own words can come back at you. BTW, seems like my guys must not be awake yet. LOL!! Too much New York partying, maybe.

by Ed Valentine on Oct 23, 2008 7:10 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

We're up

Takes a while in the morning to properly comment on a long, well written post. ……..Back later.

We're only gonna score 17 points?

by big blue wrecking crew on Oct 23, 2008 8:12 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

up and at work

Just no time to read and process yet.

by Woogie526 on Oct 23, 2008 8:22 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I can't find fault with really anything Blitzy said here

Except: How can anyone hate Peyton Manning?

I like Ben, but I like him on the Steelers. I like our QB thank you very much. Saying that “both teams have the right guy” is putting it perfectly.

As a matter of fact, the only thing I may disagree with is what Ed said. I don’t think Eli is “great” yet. He may never be “great”, but I don’t think he needs to be. He is in the neighborhood of “very good”, and that suits the Giants just fine. The Giants have a 80 year history of “very good” QB’s.

Giants fan from the womb to the tomb

by Jim Schmiedeberg on Oct 23, 2008 9:39 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I used to hate Peyton

until the Super Bowl last year. I think he’s pretty easy to hate, especially if you root for an AFC team. I mean, the guys in EVERY friggin commercial…it gets annoying after awhile.

by cjmulrain on Oct 23, 2008 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well said, jr, although I'd personally rate YA's years with Big Blue as great.

In terms of his whole career, very good or even very, very good.

by george cronin on Oct 23, 2008 10:09 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Right on George.

Tittle ( as you guys here are probably sick of hearing me say) was my hero and all time favorite quarterback. He wasn’t fast, he didn’t have a super quick release, he wasn’t very mobile, and he wasn’t even blessed with with a great arm. But heart, determination, leadership, great football mind, and the ability to throw the best screen pass I ever saw, made him great.

For those of you who might care, here is a nice story about him written just before the championship game with the Packers game last year

http://www.newsday.com/sports/football/giants/ny-spjim0119,0,5919142.column

by giant fan since 57 on Oct 23, 2008 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Blitzburgh is being way too diplomatic. I personally would have pointed out the stats because while not perfect they do say a lot. And based on the stats Big Ben is by far the better quarterback. In reality the gap isn’t that large,…but still favors Ben.

by ismail on Oct 23, 2008 10:24 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Stats

I have admitted the stats favor Ben. That’s not the point. My choice of Eli is based on the fact that ben’s stats — other than yardage, which simply equates to number of throws — are a flat line. That indicates he is what he is. Eli’s numbers continue to get better, which indicates to me he may have a higher ceiling. Right now, I agree they are roughly equal. Purely an opinion, but I think Eli has more room to get better.

by Ed Valentine on Oct 23, 2008 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’m not sure why you say he is at a flat line.

2005 stats, 12 games – 168/268 62.7% 2,385Yds 8.9Avg 17TD 9 INT 23Scks 98.6 rating

Then a concussion / motorcycle accident of doom

2006 stats, 15 games – 280/469 59.7 3,513Yds 7.5Avg 18TD 23 INT (ouch) 46 sacks 75.4 rating

Wow, ben sure sucks now.

2007 stats, 15 games – 264/404 65.3% 3,154Yds 7.8Avg 32TD 11 INT 47 sacks (ouch) 104.1 rating

Now we are in the current year. Right now he is on pace to be somewhere between his 2007 and 2005 stats. Sure, maybe that is a dropoff from 2007, but I think it is clear that he has definitely improved over the past several years. I mean, it’s not quite Tom Brady, but last years line is pretty f’ing impressive.

How can you even argue that his productivity has stayed the same?

by steelguy99 on Oct 23, 2008 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

well

if you take out 2006, his numbers in 2007 aren’t that much better than 2005.

by cjmulrain on Oct 23, 2008 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I might agree with you if I was completely ignoring the TD/INT ratio, which I most certainly am not.

by steelguy99 on Oct 23, 2008 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think if you watch him play,…you would notice unbelievable progression over the last 4 years, also remember that Ben’s supporting cast has gotten gradually weaker over the years while Eli’s has been getting stronger.

by ismail on Oct 23, 2008 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good point

I will give you credit for that one.

by Ed Valentine on Oct 23, 2008 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The best deciding factor I've heard is

Ben has 1 more playoff win.

He wins so far.

by Woogie526 on Oct 23, 2008 11:45 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

ben

got drafted into a better team

by Hoyadestroya85 on Oct 24, 2008 5:44 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's true.

Ben was the last piece of the puzzle for the Steelers. They already had a powerfull offensive line in place, great running backs, and a great defense, all of which allowed Ben to throw very sparingly when he first started. He had a lot of time to get comfortable at the position, knowing that he didn’t have to come out and sling it around every series. To his credit, he made the most of it and has developed into a great QB.

Eli, on the other hand was rushed into service by a coach who’s job was on the line, on a team with a lot of turmoil, and spent most of his first two years running for his life and throwing the ball falling backwards as he was taking a hit because his O line was not up to it’s present condition. His was a true “trial by fire.”

by giant fan since 57 on Oct 24, 2008 6:00 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Last season was Roethlisberger's best...

…by a wide margin. His first couple of years in the league he was regimented very closely by Bill Cowher in terms of his passing. Not surprisingly, considering that he was 22 years old, with just 4 years of QB experience, (at a relatively low level of competition), on his resume when he came into the league. The 2006 season was a throw away sample for several reasons. In 2007, Ben was 25 years old, the age most QBs are just breaking in as full time starters and the numbers he posted will be representative of his future production, I think. Brady, Palmer, Romo, etc. didn’t do too much at the NFL level when they were in their early 20s. They didn’t hit their stride until they were 24 or 25.

by robert ethan on Oct 23, 2008 4:25 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I agree with a lot of what you said.

But don’t forget, Pittsburgh had most of what they needed in place when Ben came to the Steelers. That was what really gave Cowher the luxury of being able to bring him along slowly, throwing only a few passes until he got comfortable.

In NY we didn’t have that luxury. Our O line was so bad that even a veteran like Warner didn’t have any time to read the field. It’s obvious by his play for the Cardinals it wasn’t his fault in NY.

   TC gave in to the pressure and threw Eli to the wolves so it’s no surprise that he tossed the ball up for grabs as much as he did and looke so clumsy early on.

by giant fan since 57 on Oct 24, 2008 6:24 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

amusingly

we have almost the same offensive line now

by queler on Oct 24, 2008 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Giants running game so far is averaging 5.6 ypc and Eli has been sacked on 3.1% of passing downs. In 2004 and 2005, when the Roethlisberger was “managing” his team to a 16-2 season and winning the Super Bowl, the Steelers running game was averaging exactly 4.0 ypc each year and he got sacked on 10.0% and 8.4% of passing plays. Despite this difference and being a rookie from the MAC, he put up better numbers than Eli has in his 5th year as a starter.

charity standing orders

by BadMaafala on Oct 24, 2008 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well ...

We no longer have Petitgout. Snee was young, and we didn’t have McKenzie when Eli was drafted. So, the line is different. It’s been pretty much the same group for three seasons now, though, and they are all good players.

by Ed Valentine on Oct 24, 2008 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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