Eli vs. Ben: The case for Eli

by Ed Valentine on Oct 23, 2008 10:40 AM EDT in News Comment 33 comments

[EDITOR'S NOTE: Since 'Blitz' has posted his 'Case for Ben' over on Behind the Steel Curtain I figured I would also put my 'case for Eli' up here.]

Let me start by saying this -- Ben Roethlisberger is a tremendous quarterback, probably one of the five best in the league. Had the Giants drafted him in 2004 I have no doubt Giants fans would be absolutely thrilled to have Big Ben as our quarterback.

Let me also say this. I also understand that, in standing up for Eli here, I have the more difficult argument to make. Purely looking at the statistics, Roethlisberger's numbers dwarf Manning's.

Completion percentage: Advantage Roethlisberger, 63.2% to 55.4%.
Quarterback rating: Advantage Roethlisberger, 93.0 to 74.9.
Interceptions: Eli has 68 to Ben's 57, although Eli has about 400 more attempts.
Touchdowns: Advantage Roethlisberger, 93-85.

Even this season, when Eli is statistically having his best season (61.8% completions, 89.1 rating) Roethlisberger's numbers are slightly better (63.2% completions, 98.1 rating).

So, how on earth can I make the argument that I would choose Eli over Roethlisberger?

If you have watched Manning play, as I have, since the beginning of the 2007 playoffs, you know how I can make that choice.

As good as Roethlisberger is, I believe he is as good as he is ever going to get. Aside from his miserable, injury-plagued 2006 season his numbers have been pretty consistent throughout his career. He's damn good, but he isn't going to get better.

There is one other thingworking against Roethlisberger. That would be the number of hits Roethlisberger takes behind that Pittsburgh line. He has been sacked 65 more times in his career than Eli, and hit countless more. Whether that is his fault or the line's, or a combination of both I don't know. Eventually, though, that has to take a toll.

Eli, I believe, is just beginning to scratch the surface of the ability that he possesses. In last year's playoffs he completed 60.5 percent of his passes, had six touchdown passes, just one interception, outplayed Jeff Garcia, Tony Romo, Brett Favre and Tom Brady. He has picked up from there this season, playing the best football of his career.

It has taken Manning longer to reach the stardom that many predicted for him, but he has. And when you see the difference in him from the uncertain, often erratic quarterback he still was toward the end of last season to the confident leader and much more accurate passer he is today he makes you believe his best is yet to become.

I can't wait to see what else he has in store for Giants fans as his career continues to unfold. That is why I will take Eli.

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Great Points, EtV

I especially agree about the pounding that Big Ben takes. That guy takes hit after hit – and, while I know he’s a tough dude – no one, and I mean NO ONE – can take the pounding he takes season after season. In due time, his play will suffer as a result of the repeated poundings he takes. He’s a great leader, and by all rights a great clubhouse guy. But I still think that Eli is the guy in this matchup.

Another edge I would give to Eli is in the “Big Game” intangibles department. I’ve posted here about this before, but look at each of their respective performances In the Super Bowl: the Steelers won their SB IN SPITE of Big Ben’s play (and perhaps some generous officiating) while Eli was the Super Bowl MVP.

It’s one game, yeah – but that “one game” quite simply produces legends. Eli’s performance was legendary; Big Ben’s was not. So you have to give Eli the edge in “Big Game” intangibles.

by Cody K on Oct 23, 2008 12:04 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Thank you

I think what we can all agree on is that the whole thing has worked out nicely for both teams.

by Ed Valentine on Oct 23, 2008 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Cody, the pounding he takes makes me wonder if he's going to get "happy feet."

I’ve seen it happen to tough QBs before. most notably Ferguson when he played for the Bills. It’s as if they decide enough is enough. Of course some tough guys stay that way through their whole career no matter how badly and often they get beat up. Curt Warner, for example, has taken as much punishment as any QB I’ve ever seen and he still stands in there w/o flinching. I saw Kerry Collins play a game this year and he was really pounded. He showed a lot of guts hanging in there and won the game for the Titans.

by george cronin on Oct 23, 2008 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

You guys are arguing under the mistaken assumption that the Steelers O-Line will never improve. We happen to have one of the best front offices in the league,…its more likely they will fix the problem than not. This year and last have been a low point for the O-Line, not the norm.

by ismail on Oct 23, 2008 7:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Good Point

While I agree with most points about this working out well for both teams, Ben’s Super Bowl performance was probably the worst of any winning quarterback of all time. That Super Bowl was borderline unwatchable and he was horrible. Antwaan Randle-El was the best QB on the field for that one.

by mcam09 on Oct 23, 2008 12:56 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

so what if Ben played badly in the superbowl??

1. It was his second year.

2. If it weren’t for him,…they wouldn’t even be playing in the superbowl. He was absolutely brilliant in the first 3 games of the playoffs.

3. I’ll take 4 very good years and 1 miserable game(Ben) over 3 miserable years and 4 brilliant games (Eli).

by ismail on Oct 23, 2008 7:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Great Discussion...

First off, I think we can all agree and thank the Chargers for taking the 3rd best QB in 2004 draft.

ETVal, to sum up your argument: Eli > Ben because 1) He has a higher ceiling (based on anecdotal evidence) and 2) he has a better OL which will allow him to stay healthier longer.

It was a nice effort ETVal and a good read, but not strong enough to show Eli is better.

RE: Cody K and Superbowl performances. No question Eli performed better in his SB appearance then Ben did in his, but that was Ben’s 2nd year and Eli’s 4th. I think 2007 Ben plays better then 2007 (playoff version) Eli if you switched them out in the SB, based on their respective seasons. The only reason Eli received the MVP award is because they couldn’t give it to the whole DLine (the real MVP), Tyree caught that pass on his helmet (still amazing to watch) and Samual drops a routine interception. If either of those last 2 things don’t happen, we probably aren’t even having this discussion.

by _ET_ on Oct 23, 2008 3:20 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I’d agree that 2007 Ben plays better than 2007 playoff version Eli.

BUT, did 2007 playoff Ben play better than 2007 playoff Eli? Hell no. While there were varying reasons like our lack of RB and seemingly porous D, Ben came into the 2nd half and made a valiant effort to win the game single handedly. But, that was after he spent the first half attempting to lose the game for us.

2 TD / 3 INT is not a good playoff performance. In all of last post-season manning only threw a single interception.

Don’t get me wrong, I still prefer Ben, but if you want to compare apples to apples bringing up last years post-season is not a good measuring stick if you want to help Ben’s case.

by steelguy99 on Oct 23, 2008 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Definitely agree about Ben's Playoff game...

For some reason, the Jags (Specifically Mathis) has his number. I meant Ben’s 2007 season as a whole which, as has been stated, was superior to Manning’s season.

by _ET_ on Oct 23, 2008 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not only that......

The one INT he DID throw (and shut it – I don’t care if Asante Samuels “should have intercepted” the pass – he didn’t, case closed) was a deflection off of the usually reliable Steve Smith’s hands; just a simple drop – so even his one INT was in many ways an anomaly.

by Cody K on Oct 23, 2008 7:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

that was not a "routine" interception

the ball was 4 feet over Samuel’s head. True, he almost made a great game-ending play, but there’s very few corners in the NFL who would have intercepted that

by cjmulrain on Oct 23, 2008 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

eh

Eli did have a couple of Holy Shit throws that fourth quarter. Bill Simmons made the joke a few weeks ago, how he wants to see who leads the league in passes that should have been intercepted, and says it has to be Eli. I would say that’s not a complete stretch

by queler on Oct 23, 2008 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Every QB

throws a handful of dangerous passes in each game. Eli’s have tended to be off-target throws, which there seem to be fewer of this season.

by Ed Valentine on Oct 23, 2008 7:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

great point ed

In fact, I remember KC Joyner breaking it down that most of Eli’s INTs are because off bad passes rather then bad decision making, I couldn’t find the exact article but here http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/insider/columns/story?columnist=joyner_kc&id=2984461

by queler on Oct 23, 2008 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The ball bounced off his hands as he landed in bounds

Watch for yourself. And i believe Asante was among the league leaders in INT, making him one of the “few corners in the NFL who would have intercepted that.”

But my point is would you feel the same way about Eli’s performance had he caught it. Would Eli be less “clutch” or less of a big game performer because of the performance of others? I am not trying to take away from Eli in any way, I just feel it is foolish to Eli > Ben bc of 1 game.

by _ET_ on Oct 23, 2008 11:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

How does Manning have more "upside"?

For starters he is about a year and a half older than Roethlisberger. Secondly, he has been playing QB since he was in diapers under the personal tuteledge of a former NFL QB. Roethlisberger didn’t play the position until his final year of high school and had just three seasons of MAC experience after that. If anything I would think that Big Ben has oodles more “room to grow” at the position.

Manning is the third best of the three, and subsequent seasons will underline that fact.

by robert ethan on Oct 23, 2008 3:50 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

you're totally right man

Eli is definitely the third best of the three. i mean look at what Phillip Rivers have done with all that talent in San Diego! at least he’s won a ~~Super Bowl MVP~~, ~~a Super Bowl Championship~~, a ~~Conference Championship~~, ~~a Divisional playoff game~~, won a Wild Card playoff game and then watched Billy Volek win a Divisional playoff game.

all Eli did was lead a 10-6 team to three road victories and a defeat of arguably the greatest regular season football team of all-time. big deal, right?

by SBakerTheTouchdownMaker on Oct 23, 2008 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Here's another angle....

In Ben’s early career he was blessed with a much more conservative game plan than Eli, who had to come out slinging. Pittsburg’s offensive line was way better than ours then and Ben had a lot of time to pick out his receivers. He would probably have slightly better stats than Eli even if that weren’t the case but I think it is a patial explaination for the disparity.

Both are going to be winners for a long time. If we were forced to swap quarterbacks I am confident that both teams would still be elite teams.

by giant fan since 57 on Oct 23, 2008 5:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

and a gameplan

that didn’t allow the running game to take pressure off him. That’s a great point 57

by queler on Oct 23, 2008 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Jeepers

Nice to see some of you guys finally jump into this. Feel like I’ve been getting killed all day.

by Ed Valentine on Oct 23, 2008 6:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

There's just a difference

Eli has consistently been a QB that has played his best when the game is on the line (ie 4th Q) or in “Big Game” situations (ie Super Bowl). And, the numbers don’t lie: Ben simply hasn’t. That’s all there is to it.

Look, Ben obviously has Eli in the regular season stats line, I’ll definitely give him that. But in the one vantage point we have of him in a truly “Big Game” he sort of shrunk under the spotlight. This is the intangible portion of judging these guys head-to-head, you sort of have to look at the big games, the big moments. Eli has always had a knack for playing his best when the NYG’s collective back was to the wall (wins against Denver, Dallas in the regular season 2 yrs ago, the ENTIRE playoffs last year).

I just think ultimately we’ll never, ever see Eli be the guy that blows your hair back with the huge stats, or averaging the 400 yd, 3TD game for 4 games in a row. But he will be the guy that goes into a playoff road game in Green Bay or Dallas (or name whatever hostile environment you want) and escapes with a win. He out-dueled “The Best” (Favre/Romo/Brady) and yeah, sometimes maybe it wasn’t the prettiest. But he wasn’t losing at home to Garrard, that’s for sure.

But I don’t care. I’ll take the wins, the championships, the MVP’s, etc. Big Ben, Phillip Rivers – those guys can have the regular season stats.

by Cody K on Oct 23, 2008 7:26 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

if you put a gun to my head

i’d probably take Big Ben, but it would be close. i think both players are going to be great quarterbacks for a long time.

the arguement that i have trouble comprehending is those people that insist Phillip Rivers is better than Eli. talk to me when that kid actually wins a significant game.

by SBakerTheTouchdownMaker on Oct 23, 2008 7:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

you have no clue

You obviously know very little about Ben’s career with the Steelers. And I don’t blame you,…..but not pretend like you do. Big Ben leads the league in 4th quarter comebacks since he came in,…15 I believe. Big Ben had brilliant playoff games AT cincy AT Indy (15-1 that season) and AT Den (13-3). He played flawlessly and if it weren’t for him they would have never made the playoffs. Don’t forget we were the first team ever to reach the Superbowl as a wildcard. And we did this on the arm of Big Ben,….NOT our running game. That point alone blows out your preposterous assertion that Ben isn’t a “big game” player. Eli had 4 good games at the right time,…get a grip.

by ismail on Oct 23, 2008 8:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

So much for good debate

Ismail, is everyone that doesn’t agree with you “clueless”?

Remember what they say about opinions.

Giants fan from the womb to the tomb

by Jim Schmiedeberg on Oct 23, 2008 9:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I have no problem with good debate,…..but when somebody makes a statement that is blatantly inaccurate i.e. “ben isn’t a big game QB”,…..then I take issue with that. Give an opinion,…but if that opinion has no credibility then you’ll get called out on it. And i say it has no credibility because if you bothered to look into it,….Ben was the first QB to lead a wild-card team to the Superbowl by defeating the 3 best teams in the AFC on the road (teams that were better than Tampa, Dallas, and Green Bay),…also its well documented than Ben has more 4th quarter comebacks than anyone since 2004. Simply on face value,…everyone knows that Big Ben is a clutch QB. Not trying to be a troll,…but its a pet peeve when someone says something so confidently that has zero factual basis. Sorry to come off like an a-hole but I’m just being honest with you.

by ismail on Oct 23, 2008 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I’m referring to Cody K’s post ofcourse.

by ismail on Oct 23, 2008 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

eli

has also had some brilliant 4th quarters

by queler on Oct 23, 2008 10:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Eli vs Ben

I like Eli and think when it comes down to it, last year probably wont be his only championship. I just think Ben has done more to this point. Eli had a good run last year but before that he was mediocre at best. Ben was good right off the bat and has continued to progress. I think this game will be a good measuring stick for Eli as far as this year goes, because up to this point he really has`t faced a top defense. Ben has already performed well against a mean Ravens D and a pretty solid Jags D. We will see how Eli does against our completely miserable defense.

by SteelerDomination on Oct 24, 2008 12:03 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Measuring stick

This will be a good measuring stick for both sides. Ultimately, i think everyone is happy with the QB they have — and justifiably so. I think we can all acknowledge that both are quality players. It will be interesting to see how each of their careers play out. There are still many, many chapters to be written.

by Ed Valentine on Oct 24, 2008 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

In the end

both teams are in great shape at the quarterback position and our QB’s have a lot of good years ahead of them. Both of them have proven they can win the Super Bowl and guys, that’s a pretty exclusive club. I’m looking forward to a hard hitting, well played, and exciting game when we clash. I just hope I have some fingernails left after the game.

by giant fan since 57 on Oct 24, 2008 5:35 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I would go with

BIg Ben hands down. Not only based on the stats, but the intangibles as well…toughness, poise, and leadership. Nothing against Eli, but I think we all know that it was at precisely this time last season, most of the NY faithful,including most of you on this page, were about to run him out of town whereas Pittsburgh embraced Ben from day one and never looked back. Everyone keeps pointing to Eli’s play in the superbowl, but everyone knows that it was the D-line that truly won the game for the Giants. Yeah Eli showed some gump with his ability to avoid the rush and make a play to sustain the game winning drive; it was indeed a rare treat for the Giants fans. However, those are the plays that we as Steelers fans see from Ben on a weekly basis.

by Steeler Ric on Oct 24, 2008 7:06 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Ben can't get better.

“As good as Roethlisberger is, I believe he is as good as he is ever going to get. Aside from his miserable, injury-plagued 2006 season his numbers have been pretty consistent throughout his career. He’s damn good, but he isn’t going to get better.”

Where is the evidence to make such a statement and so emphatically. One could just as easily make the statement about Eli. But, ah no one would. Perhaps, now we are getting at the why.

Since Eli has not been so good presumably there is more upside and because Ben has played so good the upside is diminished. Obviously, that’s no proof.

If one looks at their QB “careers” one could argue that Ben has more upside since he has done much less Quarterbacking than Eli. Eli, like Manning, has been playing QB since he wore diapers. Ben, by contrast, played WR through his junior year in HS. He only became the team’s QB as a senior. Plus, coming out early out of Miami he’s had for fewer snaps at QB than Manning. Plus, Ben is undoubtedly the better athlete, drafted as a SS by MLB out of HS and an awarding winning basketball player.

by bigmaq on Oct 24, 2008 7:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

This Ben vs Eli thing has run it's course.

I think we’ve run this comparison issue into the ground. I certainly respect Ben and the Steelers. The Steelers and Giants are both legitimate contenders to win it all this year. But this game will be won or lost by a team effort and not merely by superior play by either quarterback.

I’m ready to sit back and watch what might be the pivotable game of the year for both of us.

by giant fan since 57 on Oct 25, 2008 5:54 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs